Magnets

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,02:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But then I ask, would my design at least spin?<span id='postcolor'>

No not at all. The magnetic force is perpendicular to the movement (for a long straight magnet).

Could you draw a picture of what you want to do? I have a bit of a problem understanding it from your description.

[Harnu 0]

Machine

That was a sketch from a few pages ago. I could make another more clear one if you need. I have to get off my computer soon though.

[llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,03:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Machine

That was a sketch from a few pages ago.  I could make another more clear one if you need.  I have to get off my computer soon though.<span id='postcolor'>

The sketch is a normal electric engine.

You could in theory create a machine that never stops spinning if it's been put in spinn by some force but you can not even in theory create a machine that pruduces energy from nowhere.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Llauma @ Feb. 22 2003,03:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You could in theory create a machine that never stops spinning if it's been put in spinn by some force but you can not even in theory create a machine that pruduces energy from nowhere.<span id='postcolor'>

That's right, basically, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Windmills, solar panels, ect - those all convert one form of energy to another, and the amount of energy output by the conversion is always less than the energy input (Since there is no such thing as a 100% efficient machine). The type of thing you're talking about might work in a world with no friction, but not in reality as we know it.

[Guest]

8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,038)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Machine

That was a sketch from a few pages ago.  I could make another more clear one if you need.  I have to get off my computer soon though.<span id='postcolor'>

What do you mean by "positivly charged magnets"? Magnets are always bi-polar.

Things you are missing:

[*] friction (both magnetic and mechanical)

[*] boundary field phenomena

The magnetic force field looks like this:

Also the "material to stop magnetic current" is a bit difficult to understand since there is no such thing as magnetic current. Are you refering to magnetic flux?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Feb. 22 2003,03:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The type of thing you're talking about might work in a world with no friction, but not in reality as we know it.<span id='postcolor'>

In a world without friction you could still not 'create' energy. A good example of a near-perpetum mobile are satellites that are in orbit around the earth. They do however also lose energy over time due to gravitational irregularities.

[llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Feb. 22 2003,03:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Llauma @ Feb. 22 2003,03:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You could in theory create a machine that never stops spinning if it's been put in spinn by some force but you can not even in theory create a machine that pruduces energy from nowhere.<span id='postcolor'>

That's right, basically, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. Windmills, solar panels, ect - those all convert one form of energy to another, and the amount of energy output by the conversion is always less than the energy input (Since there is no such thing as a 100% efficient machine). The type of thing you're talking about might work in a world with no friction, but not in reality as we know it.<span id='postcolor'>

My head is a world without friction... or at least not that much

[Harnu 0]

By magnetic current i mean...

A magnet could pull or push metal from all directions. I would need something to stop it from doing that, only alowing it to pull/push in one direction.

Rubber or possibly ceramics could do the job.

[llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 22 2003,03:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Feb. 22 2003,03:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The type of thing you're talking about might work in a world with no friction, but not in reality as we know it.<span id='postcolor'>

In a world without friction you could still not 'create' energy. A good example of a near-perpetum mobile are satellites that are in orbit around the earth. They do however also lose energy over time due to gravitational irregularities.<span id='postcolor'>

A machine spinning at a constant speed do not consume energy in a total frictionless and vacuum world.

Edit: And with no gravitation

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 22 2003,03:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Feb. 22 2003,03:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The type of thing you're talking about might work in a world with no friction, but not in reality as we know it.<span id='postcolor'>

In a world without friction you could still not 'create' energy. A good example of a near-perpetum mobile are satellites that are in orbit around the earth. They do however also lose energy over time due to gravitational irregularities.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh I know that! I just meant it would work in the aspect that it would keep spining once put in motion

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,03:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">By magnetic current i mean...

A magnet could pull or push metal from all directions.  I would need something to stop it from doing that, only alowing it to pull/push in one direction.

Rubber or possibly ceramics could do the job.<span id='postcolor'>

That's unfortunately impossible. You can't remove the magnetic force field, you can only redirect it. If you add some form of dielectric you will affect the rest of the characteristics of the magnet.

The total magnetic flux through any closed surface is zero.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Feb. 22 2003,03:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh I know that! I just meant it would work in the aspect that it would keep spining once put in motion<span id='postcolor'>

I know that you know I'm just posting it for the benifit of mr. Harnu

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 22 2003,03:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,03:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">By magnetic current i mean...

A magnet could pull or push metal from all directions.  I would need something to stop it from doing that, only alowing it to pull/push in one direction.

Rubber or possibly ceramics could do the job.<span id='postcolor'>

That's unfortunately impossible. You can't remove the magnetic force field, you can only redirect it. If you add some form of dielectric you will affect the rest of the characteristics of the magnet.

The total magnetic flux through any closed surface is zero.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't want to remove any of it. I want it all redirected so it can be forced into one direction.

[llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,04:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 22 2003,03:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,03:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">By magnetic current i mean...

A magnet could pull or push metal from all directions.  I would need something to stop it from doing that, only alowing it to pull/push in one direction.

Rubber or possibly ceramics could do the job.<span id='postcolor'>

That's unfortunately impossible. You can't remove the magnetic force field, you can only redirect it. If you add some form of dielectric you will affect the rest of the characteristics of the magnet.

The total magnetic flux through any closed surface is zero.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't want to remove any of it.  I want it all redirected so it can be forced into one direction.<span id='postcolor'>

You can't.. or maybe you can in theory? but it would require more energy than the redirection would produce

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,04:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't want to remove any of it.  I want it all redirected so it can be forced into one direction.<span id='postcolor'>

I used perhaps the wrong word. Redirect was not what I meant. What I was meaning to say was phase displace. You cannot in any way redirect one polar direction of a magnetic field in any other direction. The only thing you can do is to shift the phase, but that is of no consequence to your problem.

[Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0]

Can you buy fuel cells pretty cheap now?

[Harnu 0]

Then how well do certain objects work to obstruct the field? If at all?

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 22 2003,03:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Comprende, seńor? <span id='postcolor'>

Nada  

Well I do, sorta.

If I understand you right you're saying:

The spring with push the magnet back via curve leading to the second magnet.

This would be true if it were made symmetrically.  Ofsetting the magnets could fix that.  (My sketch isn't exact, just wanted it for an idea of how it would look).

The first 2 magnets push away from each other.  That spins the whone inner tube.  Now, once it gets far enough away and looses it 'umph, that's when the other magnets kick in.

The first one pushes it say an 1/8 of a turn.  That pushes it enough for one of the other magnets to reach over the "ramp's" that lead to the next magnet.  Then those two magnets push, say another 1/8 of a turn.  And that leads the third magnet to push off of another one.  Then the first one reaches another magnet again, pushes, so on and so forth.<span id='postcolor'>

Ohhh, so the spring would just hold it in place? That might work, if the force of the first magnet is enough to overcome the initial resistance of the second one. Remember that the magnet is always going to be pushing the other magnet away from it. So while it's approaching the second magnet it would be slowed down and probably stopped by the force of the magnet.

What you COULD do, is find some material (as thin as possible) that stops the magnets from pushing away from each other. Put it covering the leading side of the second magnet (the ones not spinning) and a little over half of the bottom of it. That way the spinning magnet will only be exposed to the force in one direction.

Whether or not that's possible, I don't know.

[Renagade 0]

Can u block a magnetic field though ??

I think they use a type of device like harnu posted to keep gyros spinning in navigational equipment in planes for long periods of time without stopping

[FSPilot 0]

I dunno, but that's really the only way to do it.

...

unless you could somehow give the stationary magnet a temporary charge that is opposite to the moving magnet. that way it will attract it and, once the magnet passes the stationary magnet, switch the charge back over to the similar charge so it will push it away again. That'd work great since you can get the moving magnet to go faster with an attracting charge that switches over to a dissimilar charge when it comes time to push the magnet away.

That is, if you can somehow change the charge of the magnet.

[Harnu 0]

But then that gets into electro magnets, which take energy to make energy...

Unless a mechanical system could be designed to essentially rotate the stationary magnets.

[FSPilot 0]

Well if you were making energy you could divert some energy to running the electromagnets. Hopefully it would still produce some energy.

[Frizbee 0]

At Physics (we had a lot of spare time too) a guy who sat near me, and I designed a "generator" similar to your idea that produced enough power to run a motor to keep the magnet spinning, thus creating more power, and so forth and so forth.

I have the sketches and other information we collected (including data on various types of magnets)

It's just a pity this sort of design can't get you university grants. (Or even better, a grant at DARPA)

[der bastler 0]

Gosh! "Creating" energy.

*shudders*

I want to believe...

(Well, watch out, mother nature will sue you for breaking laws...)

[FSPilot 0]

We'll nail her for inflicting us with things like diseased monkeys and floods.