Randomise group placement?

[mrvibrating 14]

OFP player here, trying to knock up a simple mission in Arma3:

 

 • in OFP you can group a bunch of units together - say, setting up a nice convoy - then assign a placement radius to the group leader than spans an entire map..

 

 • ..likewise, you can set this convoy a waypoint that also has the same whole-map placement radius..

 

Then make an enemy convoy, or whatever enemy units, also with radomised locations and destinations..

 

So basically you just make the groups, set their waypoints & leader's spawn radii, and the groups all spawn in random locations and follow their random waypoints..

 

This makes for a very quick & easy mission template, that you can just copy & paste onto any map for natural random engagements each time.  It takes minutes in OFP, but after hours of trying in Arma3 i'm at a complete loss - setting the group's placement radius causes each unit to spawn in a random location;  the group no longer observing the formation it's supposed to spawn in (as in OFP).  I've tried the 'setFormation' innit but that doesn't help.  Each group is scattered across the map at launch.   Waypoint randomisation still seems to work.. i just can't seem to randomise spawn locations of groups without scattering them (really wishing there was an OFP-style interface for this thing - switching to map view in Eden editor hardly helps, all the attribute controls i normally rely on in the object properties seem broken or missing entirely, eg 'in formation', 'in cargo', 'flying' etc. etc.)..

[dreadedentity 278]

Try putting this in the init fields of all units except group leaders:

this setPos (getPos leader this)

 

[Harzach 2518]

Use the Placement Radius field in the Composition: Init section, not the Object: Transformation section:

 

[mrvibrating 14]

19 hours ago, dreadedentity said:

Try putting this in the init fields of all units except group leaders:

this setPos (getPos leader this)

 

Thanks, nice idea, however all vehicles in the group spontaneously explode on mission start, erupting into the air with energies and ranges between a few hundred meters and from the center of Altis to far out at sea.  I restarted the mission about a dozen times, mostly getting longer-range hypersonic trajectories, with a few less-spetacular starts i'd estimate at about a kiloton or so.  As i haven't been able to survive a single start and it all cooks off instantaneously i can only guess what's happening, but is the whole convoy spawning the exact-same coords? 

 

See?  This is why that "in formation" properties attribute was so useful..  ditto for 'in cargo'..  i tried this old suggestion:

..however this caused the infantry units - all set to 'moveincargo' in their inits - to spawn out of their vehicles, on foot, and scattered across the map, thus the mission always starting with the group leaders instructing everyone to get back into their vehicles, now in random locations on the other side of the map somewhere..

 

19 hours ago, Harzach said:

Use the Placement Radius field in the Composition: Init section, not the Object: Transformation section:

 

Thanks mate, i did discover this myself eventually, but alas it also scatters the convoy to random points on the map rather than just one - going to map view on mission start i can see the rest of the group's disparate locations, all miles away - maybe it'll work for smaller groups i don't know, but my convoy's like 4 tanks, 4 APC's and 4 support trucks, hardly pushing the boat out you'd think..

 

In OFP i just randomise the leader units' spawn radii, set the rest of the vehicles to 'in formation' and all infantry to 'in cargo' and you have quality random combat in minutes..  Add GL3, ECP + SLX, and trust me, graphics aside, no BIS game since comes close (and i bought all of 'em of course).  In fact out of curiosity i tried this mission in Arma2 and it fails in the same way, even though the interface is pretty much 1:1 with OFP..  evidently the code change that broke it must be ancient.. 

 

Ah well, since it works well enough in OFP i guess i'll just stick with that for now..

[Harzach 2518]

Worked fine for me with infantry and vehicles, but I just tried a very large vehicle group like you describe and it indeed sort of falls apart (though in large chunks, not all scattered separately). Oddly, If I remove all but the driver from every vehicle, it works fine.

 

 

[Joe98 92]

You need to set the lead vehicle to start at a random place.

When the lead vehicle starts at location 1, this fires a trigger that is already at location 1.  The trigger will transport;

- vehicle 2 to a point (say) 50 meters to the east of lead vehicle

- vehicle 3 to a point (say) 50 meters to the east of vehicle 2

- vehicle 4 to a point (say) 50 meters to the east of vehicle 3

- and so on.

 

As an added point, I have found that every time software improves, we go forward 10 steps and backward 2 steps. Arma 3 is many, many times better than any of the games that came before in every way - except in this instance!

 

 

[mrvibrating 14]

On 3/23/2022 at 9:09 PM, Harzach said:

Worked fine for me with infantry and vehicles, but I just tried a very large vehicle group like you describe and it indeed sort of falls apart (though in large chunks, not all scattered separately). Oddly, If I remove all but the driver from every vehicle, it works fine.

 

 

Yes that's it, chunks here and there, like i say, exact same behaviour in Arma2.  Didn't bother keeping Arma1 installed (i found the engine had horrid input latency).  Well done for noticing it still works with drivers only, that's something to start with at least eh..

 

On 3/24/2022 at 1:37 AM, Joe98 said:

You need to set the lead vehicle to start at a random place.

When the lead vehicle starts at location 1, this fires a trigger that is already at location 1.  The trigger will transport;

- vehicle 2 to a point (say) 50 meters to the east of lead vehicle

- vehicle 3 to a point (say) 50 meters to the east of vehicle 2

- vehicle 4 to a point (say) 50 meters to the east of vehicle 3

- and so on.

 

As an added point, I have found that every time software improves, we go forward 10 steps and backward 2 steps. Arma 3 is many, many times better than any of the games that came before in every way - except in this instance!

 

 

Just throwing units down and stringing 'em together using the GUI only, you get the above 'chunking' of the group's vehicles into scattered locations.  With OFP however you just randomise the leader's placement as you say; provided the rest of the vehicles are set to 'in formation' in their properties tab, you can have 12 spawn reliably in formation anywhere on the map..  and so long as the leader vehicle's land-based only (as opposed to amphibious or air), it even ensures the group only spawn on dry land, so you don't have to worry about the spawn radius overlapping coasts, just set it to '9000' or whatever spans the whole map.

 

Arma3's obviously technically a better software in most respects.. and yet i've always found myself going back to OFP for the 'real deal'.. especially since the Eden update..  mebe i'll give it another go this w/e tho, cheers..

[Harzach 2518]

Maybe think less about A3 as being broken and more as it being different. There are so many incredibly powerful new commands and functions. Yes, it can be frustrating having to figure out new ways to do things that were simple in earlier iterations - losing setVehicleInit and a few other commands back in the alpha was a shitshow - but the reasons behind the changes are generally reasonable (MP security being a big one).

 

Survive / Adapt / Win

 

You're on part two. Good luck, have fun!

[pierremgi 4906]

Setting convoys is not so easy. You need to start on road, in right direction. What I suggest is to place several convoys and all scripts like setConvoySeparation, limitSpeed, waypoints, behaviors... Make them invisible/non simulated.

Then at start, choose one at random, give it visibility and simulation. You can delete the other ones.

If your player(s) are involved in this convoy in any manner, use moveInCargo (or moveInDriver, moveInAny...) command(s) but don't forget to enable simulation first.

[Joe98 92]

10 hours ago, mrvibrating said:

 

Just throwing units down and stringing 'em together using the GUI only, you get the above 'chunking' of the group's vehicles into scattered locations. 

 

 

Well no,  as I do it:

unit 1 is placed at random. Its not exactly at random as you can specify (say) 50 spots at random. Each spot is on a road.

Unit 2 is placed (via a trigger) at exactly 50 meters to the east of unit 1. 

So you do not get chunking of groups.

.

 

 

 

[Joe98 92]

And  pierremigi   above has another way of doing it explained thus:

 

Place (say)  50 convoys on a map. Each convoy has a number.

A number is selected at random from  0 - 49  (thats 50 numbers)

Your crews are teleported to that convoy number and placed in specific seats in the vehicles.

You finish the script with a command to delete the other 49 convoys

 

To practise, it is best to start with individual soldiers. When that is working do it with vehicles.

 

[mrvibrating 14]

On 3/26/2022 at 2:24 AM, Joe98 said:

And  pierremigi   above has another way of doing it explained thus:

 

Place (say)  50 convoys on a map. Each convoy has a number.

A number is selected at random from  0 - 49  (thats 50 numbers)

Your crews are teleported to that convoy number and placed in specific seats in the vehicles.

You finish the script with a command to delete the other 49 convoys

 

To practise, it is best to start with individual soldiers. When that is working do it with vehicles.

 

All these suggested workarounds are incredibly complicated compared to simply using the editor as it's supposed to work.

 

The way it works in OFP is quick, simple & intuitive, everything working as-labelled.  You only need touch the keyboard to type in the placement radii.  The game takes care of the rest; again, for land vehicles, both the spawn and waypoint locations are randomised to land-based coordinates.  Thus the convoy spawns on land, and then drives to some random destination on land.

 

Arma3 drops all such checks, and half the vehicles spawn out at sea, immediately en route to Davie Jones locker.    Half of those lucky enough to be spawned on land will try to drive to destinations out at sea.

 

Of the maybe 25% that luck-out with land-based coordinates for both spawn and waypoint locations, half of those again get stuck in scenery.  At the slightest obstacle, they do that little Arma3 dance where they back up with an oscillating yaw, point directly at the clear exit route then rotate back towards the obstacle (or ped) and drive straight into it.  If it's immoveable they'll often just stick there with the drive wheels slipping the tracks.   After slaughtering peds they automatically switch from "safe" into "aware" modes and start driving cross-country, leaving the roads altogether.  It's far, far worse AI than either OFP or Arma2.. (which was always an in-joke anyway, yet it's got worse with Arma3.. much, much worse..).

 

As you can probably tell, i spent most of yesterday evening at it again (far too long) and ended up in complete defeat just trying to get units to obey their waypoints - if i could get them to move at all, the lead tank would be driving cross-country leaving a wake of destruction even though the waypoint and setBehaviour are at "safe".  I had to change the lead vehicle to a car just to make the convoy use the roads.

 

I gave up trying to randomise the start location, beginning at Altis airport in the center as an Alive blufor zone, surrounded by opfor a couple of miles out, with a randomised waypoint placement radius spanning the whole map, much of it thus over water.  I just want the convoy to set out from the safe zone and take some random route into enemy territory, in any direction, towards a randomised 'guard' waypoint. Four M1's, two full bradleys and an ammo truck.  Must've spent four hours solid just trying to get the group to actually move, at all.    Even when changing to a simple non-randomised 'move' waypoint, the convoy just sits there at mission start.  FFWD time 4x and wait... nothing.  Each retry takes about a minute to restart, then a few more to wait and see if it's fixed yet, nope, back to editor and tweak something else.. on and on for hours just trying to get the damn leader to start moving.

 

Eventually i realised that my presence as the player in cargo of either of the bradleys was part of the bug, somehow - when i get out or eject, the lead vehicle instantly comes to life and starts heading out towards the randomised waypoint.  The leader then commands me to get back in the vehicle, and doing so promptly brings the convoy back to a halt.  Even replying back "copy" and "done", the leader just sits there, and after another minute everyone switched their engines back off.

 

In trying to get my head around this, i de-grouped the bradleys from the rest of the convoy, making it a separate and unrelated group.  I also then tried degrouping all units in the bradleys.  In both instances, the fault condition causing the convoy to ignore its waypoint remained my presence in cargo - the instant i get out of the ungrouped bradley, the convoy, that i'm no longer even part of, starts moving.  The instant i get back in, it grinds back to a halt.

 

"No way mate. There's no way we're following ANY waypoint so long as you're sitting in that vehicle".

 

Why?  Why is it doing this to me?  Why does a small convoy that i'm not part of, freeze in its tracks if i climb into some unrelated vehicle as a passenger?   Because, obvioushly, i want to ride in the convoy.   That's... that's kinda the whole point, of what it is i'm trying to do here..

 

Small convoy leaves safe zone in random direction towards random "guard" waypoint in or near hostile territory, with player in-cargo as infantry.  That's it.  That's the mission template.

 

In OFP or Arma2:

 

 • hit F2, double-click anywhere on map, place enemy group, double click leader and set placement radius to 9000 (covering whole map), then hit F4 and double click nearby to set a '"guard" waypoint with the same placement radius, "safe", "column".

 • repeat, for more groups - say 1x mech infantry, 1x tank platoon, 1x sniper team etc. etc., one of each group you want to encounter; to increase density, copy and past these groups as desired

 • repeat once more for a player group / any friendlies / supports

 

Hit 'play' and you're off.  No need for ambient combat mods, group-link scripts or anything.  Just using the basic editor GUI functions, everything doing exactly what it says on the tin.  Just with everything else vanilla.  Add in GL3, SLX & ECP and it gets even more intense, with volleys of heavy cover fire coming in from multiple directions, along with artillery, AI tracking and flanking etc. etc.  Those mods are of course automatic and don't need configuring, so literally you're in the action in minutes.  And again, you can then just copy / paste that entire mission onto any map, without worrying about spawning units or waypoints over water..

 

The Eden editor gives the appearance of carrying over this traditional kind of gameplay, but in practice it's incapable of actually replicating it..  and people who still make these kinds of missions rely on workarounds - primarily Python scripts, but even resorting to recording their own manual driving inputs for AI to then follow.  Trying to implement this same mission in Arma3 however is clearly a hiding to nowhere.  Hours of wasted mission restarts, checking every conceivable error source, just getting the group to actually move with me onboard has defeated hours of patient effort.   This, after completely giving up on trying to randomise start locations and waypoints.

 

OFP may have dated GFX, but its comically-bad AI and physics have only got markedly worse in Arma3 it seems.  Even Arma2 never refused a waypoint just because i was sat in some other, unrelated vehicle.  That's just weird.

 

Spend another week learning to script a mission that i can be playing within minutes in OFP?  I'm just in it for the game, not the programming challenge..

[dreadedentity 278]

existential crisis...I'll take another crack at it later

[dreadedentity 278]

Tested this against several compositions of vehicle squads and got no more explosions. Even tested a squad of chinooks on a steep mountainside, the script worked great, but they spool up engines and start sliding into each other and blow up in a quite memorable display. Has trouble with infantry squads, but hey, you can just setPos those guys directly on the squad leaders position and it works

 

Anyway, just paste this into the init box of the group leader:

this spawn {
	{
		_pos = [];
		if (!(leader _x == _x)) then {
			_pos = [_this, 10, 50, 5, 0, 90, 0] call BIS_fnc_findSafePos;
		} else {
			_pos = [random 30000, random 30000];
			while {surfaceIsWater _pos} do {
				_pos = [random 30000, random 30000];
			};
		};
		(vehicle _x) setPosATL (_pos + [1]);
		(vehicle _x) setVectorUp (surfaceNormal _pos);
		(vehicle _x) setPosATL (_pos + [0.1]);
		sleep 0.01;
	} forEach (units _this);
};

EDIT: Forgot to handle moving group leader to a random place

Edited April 7, 2022 by dreadedentity
added stuff

[mrvibrating 14]

@DD - thanks mate, i did try it a few times but the behaviour was this:

 

 • group started out on the airstrip as placed in editor

 

 • after a few secs the vehicles began spawning in the new randomised location..

 

 • ..repeatedly.  Each vehicle.  Most of these spawns were remarkably successful, it's just that with so many repeats over such a short period, eventually one or two were raining out of the sky..

 

 • ..the spawning-frenzy ends when all vehicles have transported to the new group location, but i lost a Bradley full of troops every time, usually meteorically..

 

Really appreciate the effort - perhaps it's tripping up on the fact that i'm not spawning vehicles with crew but assigning them manually.. or perhaps its fighting for resources with Alive mod on startup (modest Alive config w/ 200 units a side and max 6 virtual groups active, on i5-11400F / 16Gb).. dunno, but it's not worth the hassle, i've given up on trying to randomise starting locations for groups in Arma3..  at least until BIS fix / restore it natively.   For now i'll just have groups set out from a central base, and see if i can at least suss a way to generate viable random waypoints.. but i've started another thread addressing this specifically..

[Harzach 2518]

1 hour ago, mrvibrating said:

at least until BIS fix / restore it natively

 

This will never happen.

[dreadedentity 278]

4 hours ago, mrvibrating said:

..repeatedly

This shouldn't be repeating at all, you only put that code in the group leader init correct?