Su-37 berkut in progress

[Shashman 0]

Highly unlikely thses days with BVR AAMs like AIM-120AMRAAMS and R-12 Adder Russian equivalent, but were an Eagle and a Super Flanker to close in for a gun dogfight, the Super Flanker could use this manoeuvre to rapidly decelerate, leaving the Eagle screaming past wondering what the hell is going on, exposing his hot rear end to an IR AAM.

[Johann "onn" Bitsoenn 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FerretFangs @ Feb. 12 2003,06:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">From what I've read, the Cobra manuever has no tactical value. In fact, it leaves the plane with no energy at all, so it's in effect, a sitting duck. Unless it can be masked from sensors, it's going to get wasted at medium range with IR seeking AAMs. It's a beautiful show of the plane's manueverablity, however.<span id='postcolor'>

Imagine the situation that F-15 suddenly appears at your 6 enough close. Then if you do cobra, F-15, unable to slow down, will miss you and now you will be on his 6, maybe unable to run after him, but surely able to send him R-77M right in his ass

[Rattler 0]

You sure the Mig-29 can't do that? The mig was the first jet that I ever heard could do this. And I heard about this awhile back before I learned of the -37

[Spitfire 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Rattler @ Feb. 12 2003,21:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You sure the Mig-29 can't do that? The mig was the first jet that I ever heard could do this. And I heard about this awhile back before I learned of the -37<span id='postcolor'>

Well, maybe it cannot do the somersault maneuver due to lack of thrust vectoring nozzles, but from what I've read it can fly backwards (without killing the engines) at negative airspeed.

EDIT: I just reviewed it from the net - the 29 was the first plane to do the regular Cobra maneuver. Nothing about the 360 Cobra somersault, though.

[NAA_Us_Marine 0]

What most people dont know about the cobra manuver is that it leaves a few seconds with the Su facing vertical which would give an experienced pilot just enough time to shoot the shit out of it. So its not the absolute fool proof move that will set you up behind an aircraft every time you do it.

[chaztheducky 0]

yes but you wouldent expect that when your trying to line up to fire your guns strait up his crap hole. for intance... you right on his tail and you almost have the shot then all of the sudden he pops up above and behing you in 1/2 second. by insinct you look back and see him fire at you. then sir you are fucked because you looked at him for another 1/2 second. but i would go into a dive and pull back around him while in his blind spot then fire a ARRAM(you get the point with the big missle)strait up into to his exaust port. he would never expect it plus he be too confused to know what the heck im doing

[Spitfire 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NAA_Us_Marine @ Feb. 12 2003,23:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What most people dont know about the cobra manuver is that it leaves a few seconds with the Su facing vertical which would give an experienced pilot just enough time to shoot the shit out of it. So its not the absolute fool proof move that will set you up behind an aircraft every time you do it.<span id='postcolor'>

That's not even the biggest problem of the maneuver. The biggest one is the fact that Cobra is virtually useless near corner speeds (350-500 kts) where the majority of close A-A encounters happen. Though the main goal of the maneuver is to quickly reduce speed, doing it at 400 kts is nothing more than a normal vertical pull-up from which it will take an eternity to slow the speeds down to zero (and during that time it's easy to shoot you down, just as you said). It only works like it's supposed to work when flying at relatively slow speeds. But a pilot finding himself in a low energy situation like that with an enemy on his tail is very likely to end up getting shot down.

A pilot skilled enough to use the Cobra is probably skilled enough never to get into a situation where the maneuver would prove handy.

Pugachev probably never intended the maneuver to be used in dogfight, after all. It's great for air show aerobatics, though!

[RaptorAce 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's great for air show aerobatics, though! <span id='postcolor'>

Thats the only thing its used in, airshows... Though it would be interesting to see what would happen, maybe some fulcrum pilots would be daring enough to do it in red flag

i doubt it though

[deadsoldier 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (chaztheducky @ Feb. 12 2003,22:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">yes but you wouldent expect that when your trying to line up to fire your guns strait up his crap hole. for intance... you right on his tail and you almost have the shot then all of the sudden he pops up above and behing you in 1/2 second. by insinct you look back and see him fire at you. then sir you are fucked because you looked at him for another 1/2 second. but i would go into a dive and pull back around him while in his blind spot then fire a ARRAM(you get the point with the big missle)strait up into to his exaust port. he would never expect it plus he be too confused to know what the heck im doing <span id='postcolor'>

Yea, then the as you dive down to go into his blind spot, he looks around, your not there, he adds 1 and 1 together, commen sense, he realises your down there, , a hard left turn and rudder PLUS the thrust vectorings, puts him aiming down at you in less than 2 seconds, in 2 seconds you would still be pointing straight down. Pilots are not as stupid as you think, thats why it costs 3 million to train a pilot each year.

The cobra manouver is great inthe hands of a skilled pilot, just like any other aircraft, a good pilot will know when to execute the cobra and when not to, because yes he does loose a lot of speed , but then again , in both mig-29 and su-27 family, the thrust to weight ratio is great, so the pilot isn;t shy to quickly get out of it, or climb up behind an F-16 or F-15.

In a dogfight, rate of turn is the currency, or...your life. With thrust vectors, it doesn;t matter how fast your plane is going as long as you can turn 180 degrees in less than 3 seconds.

But if there were more than 2 enemy fighters in a dogfight, then it would be in danger ofcourse, but this means that its not a great place for dogfights when you have too many fighters aruond cause at any moment there must be some guy behind your ass.

The mig-29 vs F-16 and Su-27 or 37 vs F-15 discussion has be going on forever. In summery, if any american jet came into close combat with a mig-29 or an su-27, then its toasted, cause there both extremely maneverable at low speeds. IF you say that an F-15 could easily fire a missle and kill, then yes it could, but here ppl are debating which is better in close combat.

cheers

[FerretFangs 0]

Actually my point was that the maneuver would leave the jet with negative energy, at low to medium altitude. I wasn't even considering a gunfight as the cannon is a weapon of last resort and little practical use as an anti-aircraft weapon.

So, What you have after the Cobra is a very large, very heavy ( Although very powerful. ) aircraft nearly hovering. The dogfight is about energy conservation. If you bleed off all your energy while the other guy is throttled-up trying to extend, he can really stick and move with the maneuvers. I wouldn't want to be hanging relatively motionless, with no turning capability while my opponent can make 9G turns, to get the drop on me. Then the threat becomes trying to out maneuver an AIM-9M/X capable of making 20G turns at Mach 3. Not unguided cannon rounds. It's really moot anyway, as the fight comes down to first look, first shot, first kill. It's sensors and AAM range these days. Dogfights would only take place in large multi-fighter engagements- and nobody can afford that sort of thing anymore.

[Wonder 0]

The Cobra is not an air combat maneuver! It's an aerobatic maneuver, period!

[Spitfire 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wonder @ Feb. 13 2003,11:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Cobra is not an air combat maneuver! It's an aerobatic maneuver, period!<span id='postcolor'>

That's what the makers of Top Gun the Movie never knew when they gave the audience a wrong picture about the usefulness of this maneuver

By really stretching your imagination, there could be a very far-fetched situation where it could prove advantageous. Such a situation has to be a low total energy (low speed & low altitude) guns-only dogfight situation. But - as I said before - a Fulcrum/Flanker pilot getting into a situation like that is first of all very unlikely and secondly, a sign of incompetence by both pilots. If I would be an F-15 pilot catching a Flanker in a close situation with guns only(even if I was the one tailing him), I'd curse myself to hell to let a close-up situation like that happen against the most dangerous adversary imaginable without noticing it first at a safer BVR distance.

Period.

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Spitfire @ Feb. 13 2003,13:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wonder @ Feb. 13 2003,11:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The Cobra is not an air combat maneuver! It's an aerobatic maneuver, period!<span id='postcolor'>

That's what the makers of Top Gun the Movie never knew when they gave the audience a wrong picture about the usefulness of this maneuver

By really stretching your imagination, there could be a very far-fetched situation where it could prove advantageous. Such a situation has to be a low total energy (low speed & low altitude) guns-only dogfight situation. But - as I said before - a Fulcrum/Flanker pilot getting into a situation like that is first of all very unlikely and secondly, a sign of incompetence by both pilots. If I would be an F-15 pilot catching a Flanker in a close situation with guns only(even if I was the one tailing him), I'd curse myself to hell to let a close-up situation like that happen against the most dangerous adversary imaginable without noticing it first at a safer BVR distance.

Period.  <span id='postcolor'>

They did the Cobra maneuver in the movie Top Gun?

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Spitfire 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Miles Teg @ Feb. 13 2003,22:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They did the Cobra maneuver in the movie Top Gun?  <span id='postcolor'>

Not in it's original form, but remember the first time Maverick "slammed on the brakes", he also did a rapid break up maneuver similar to the Cobra? It's fairly obvious that the movie makers derived that maneuver from Cobra.

[chaztheducky 0]

i still get him

[deadsoldier 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Spitfire @ Feb. 13 2003,22:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Miles Teg @ Feb. 13 2003,22:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They did the Cobra maneuver in the movie Top Gun?  <span id='postcolor'>

Not in it's original form, but remember the first time Maverick "slammed on the brakes", he also did a rapid break up maneuver similar to the Cobra? It's fairly obvious that the movie makers derived that maneuver from Cobra.<span id='postcolor'>

no its by far not like a cobra.. if slamming on the brakes is considered like a cobra, then any plane who slows down is doing a semi cobra

The one in top gun is the oldest trick inthe book, pull the stick up, put throttle to idle, slam on brakes and do a barel role, this way, you are slowing speed at the same time you are crossing a larger distance (barel roll) while rolling, making a big circle around him, this way you slow down real fast , so he passes infront of you. and thats not a cobra. The cobra is when the plane goes into an aerodynamic stall, when the elveator exceeds the "stability limits".

cheers

[Supah 0]

Well all is nice and well. But looking at the Fulcrums Air Combat Record it has done nothing but be killed by BVR missiles. Not because its a bad plane but because the pilots flying it are crap. Russian pilots are among the best in the world and sure a russiian pilot with a fulcrum will be a formidable threat .... but a fleeing iraqi in a fulcrum which hasnt been maintained properly is not threat at all. Neither is a serbian pilot etc.

[FerretFangs 0]

That's probably over simplifying it a bit much... I think nearly all shootdowns were performed using the excellent AIM-120C AMRAAM. Theres only so much a Fulcrum, or even Flanker pilot could do when being tracked by the AMRAAM. These missiles- when combined with the state of the art radar systems on the launching fighter- just eat the planes they're shot at. Thats why we've built so many of them, sold them to our partners, and have equipped our future fighters to carry them.

[Spitfire 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FerretFangs @ Feb. 14 2003,03:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That's probably over simplifying it a bit much... I think nearly all shootdowns were performed using the excellent AIM-120C AMRAAM.<span id='postcolor'>

AMRAAM is combat tested, but afaik it has only scored 3 kills. I believe most of the MiG shootdowns have been scored by the AIM-52 Phoenix, which is a whole lot easier to dodge than the AMRAAM, or the AIM-9 Sidewinder. I remember reading somewhere that the vast majority of all USAF/NAVY kills have been done by the Sidewinder, but I'm not sure about the few MiG-29 kills.

I believe most of the MiG-29's downed in its history must have been during the Iran-Iraq war, with the AIM-54 Phoenix missile launched from a F-14 Tomcat platform.

[Supah 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Spitfire @ Feb. 14 2003,10:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FerretFangs @ Feb. 14 2003,03:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That's probably over

I believe most of the MiG-29's downed in its history must have been during the Iran-Iraq war, with the AIM-54 Phoenix missile launched from a F-14 Tomcat platform.<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

According to several books i have from a family member who flew F-16's in the dutch airforce the aim-54 phoenix has yet to score a kill. The iranians would appeared to have used their F-14's more as mini awacs aircraft untill they ran out of parts and had to ground the aircraft. Most kills by nato airforce resulted from AIM-9 shots and/or gun fire. The AIM-7 was too unreliable to make any real imprint during vietnam. The AMRAAM is vast moving up the list. Think about it iran doesnt have more then 24 tomcats but they had shitloads of phantoms. migs and various other aircraft. Now why would a relatively small force of tomcats down more then a huge force of other fighters? Some sources even say that most iraqi aircraft were most likely shot down by trigger happy friendly AA gunners. source: "Changes in threat air doctrine and force structure", 26th edition (1993) published by the lockheed fort worth company. One would think these people would know

[Spitfire 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ Feb. 14 2003,14<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">According to several books i have from a family member who flew F-16's in the dutch airforce the aim-54 phoenix has yet to score a kill.<span id='postcolor'>

That may be true about US Navy Phoenix, but Iran & Iraq both claim to have kills with the Phoenix.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0077.shtml

http://www.f-16.net/library/legacy.html

btw. Are we off topic or what?!

[deadsoldier 0]

I found a site, when i was researching about the F-15E, it had all the kills that F-15E's did in the gulf, and it shows type of weapon. but i cant find it anymore. but i found this on a page.

"The US had five F-15C and two F-15E squadrons when the (air)war against Iraq began. The F-15C's scored 32 aerial kills, of a total of 41 victories. Twenty-four of these kills were achieved with the Sparrow missile, eight by AIM-9 sidewinders. One F-15E scored an aerial kill by dropping a laser-guided bomb on an airborne Iraqi helicopter. No F-15C/D Eagle fighters were lost during Desert Shield / Storm, two F-15E Strike Eagles were lost in action."

http://www.zap16.com/mil%20fact/f-15.htm

edit: found this interesting site showing Iraqi AA kills.

http://www.webruler.com/aircombat/iraqi_kills.htm

and US AA kills in desert storm:

http://www.webruler.com/aircombat/desert.htm

cheers

[RaptorAce 0]

Thats cuz the Strike Eagle is the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be. I'd like to see any aircraft come close to its incredible record

[mr. Duck 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RaptorAce @ Feb. 14 2003,23:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Thats cuz the Strike Eagle is the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be.  I'd like to see any aircraft come close to its incredible record<span id='postcolor'>

I'm sure there will be an aircraft wich will have such a record. The strike eagle is just as good as the pilot is. I mean;

novice pilot+F-15 vs. veteran pilot+mig29 = - F15

And remember, records are there to be broken.  

edit:

didn't the F-16 had a better record?

[RaptorAce 0]

nope, the F-15 has a 100+ kill record and no combat losses EVER...

Many an F-16 has been shot down, probably all by SAMs... adversary aircraft have been sucking ever since vietnam