Revolver vs. auto pistol

[BaronVonRed 0]

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So...if you get a well designed pistol, use unharmed and good cartrifges and clean your pistol properly, then you have removed atleast 90% possibility for the weapon to missfire.

<span id='postcolor'>

Then according to your formular, there is a 10% chance of failure?

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"If the slide of the pistol touches a wall or other object"

hmmm.....Assuming is an object is to stop the slide from going backwards the object have to be behind the slide.

BaronvonRed: assuming you took a handgun-safety-course. Did'nt you learn that the shooter shall allways stay behind his weapon?

How are you going to get "a wall or other object" between you and your handgun then?

<span id='postcolor'>

Firstly, it doesn't have to STOP the slide. The eject/feed process is more sensitive than you think. If anything interferes with the slide while firing, the process is impacted. HOW that happens isn't necessarily important, but to completely understand your weapon means that you are aware of this. You don't just teach gun saftey on the range, you teach all aspects of the weapons, including the fact that the users are aware of the sensitivity of the slide-in-action.

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If the ejection port is blocked....

well just grab that slide, pull it back, tilt the weapon to your right, shake (the cartridge usually falls out) and release the slide again.

<span id='postcolor'>

This is correct (mostly), but again, the point is to be AWARE of the conditions under which the weapon may not function properly. Clearing jams is another topic entirely.

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"Firing the pistol with the muzzle in contact with an adversary is likely to cause a jam of some sort."

Why would you want your muzzle to touch the object your are going to shoot at?

btw; you've seen way too many movies. Its very uncommon that the weapon fail to reload when the barrel is obstructed. Usually it means that the slide going harder and faster backwards (more wear on the rails on the frame and slide). If you manage to hold the gun hard enough at a object you might cause a blowback but you'll point that barrel through a person if you try, cuz you'll have to push it so hard

<span id='postcolor'>

"Why would you want your muzzle to touch the object your are going to shoot at?"

Again, the issue is not WHY or HOW that happens, but to be aware of what happens in that case. Gun safety doesn't just mean know how to stand in the booth and shoot under ideal conditions. It is important to understand your weapon from as many different perspectives as possible.

"btw; you've seen way too many movies. Its very uncommon that the weapon fail to reload when the barrel is obstructed."

Um, sorry to disagree, but when the barrel is obstructed it has a negative impact on the bullet. Instead of the gasses and heat being pushed outward, these get reflected back down the barrel (called back-pressure), and this interferes with the eject/feed process. And I fail to see how the number of movies that I watch has any bearing on this. Perhaps you are unware that military and (most) law enforcement personnel are trained to understand the operation of their weapon in a variety of combat and environmental conditions?

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sidenote: I have now fired approx 2500 rounds with my 92FS. It has never failed me. The last 1000 rounds went without any problems and any cleaning. But then again the 92-series is also known for its reliability and wide ejection-port.

<span id='postcolor'>

Definitely one of the best handguns money can buy.

[shadow 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BaronVonRed @ Dec. 18 2002,12:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">there are like um, 12 OTHER SHOOTERS at our range, uh, is that okay with you? Um, should I draw a picture? Can you figure it out from there?<span id='postcolor'>

If there's only 12 shooters at the range at a time, there's way too much jamming.

The range I talked about (is very small) has around 500-600 members and 40-50 of those are active. The range is open 3 days a week. And still I've only heard of those two jams I saw myself (I was there when it happend). If you know so much about handguns then I'm amazed you don't consider 1 jam a month to be way too much with so few active shooters

[BaronVonRed 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Shadow @ Dec. 18 2002,12:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'd start by looking at the maintenance. If maintenance is okay, I'd start looking at the cartridges. Maybe try a different brand and/or load.<span id='postcolor'>

Good point; we are given cheapie reloads for most practice, although you can bring your own if you like. That would explain a large percentage of it. Even my .357 has had some strange reactions to this ammo at times, and it's really nasty cleaning up after a session.

[BaronVonRed 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Shadow @ Dec. 18 2002,13:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BaronVonRed @ Dec. 18 2002,12:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">there are like um, 12 OTHER SHOOTERS at our range, uh, is that okay with you? Um, should I draw a picture? Can you figure it out from there?<span id='postcolor'>

If there's only 12 shooters at the range at a time, there's way too much jamming.

The range I talked about (is very small) has around 500-600 members and 40-50 of those are active. The range is open 3 days a week. And still I've only heard of those two jams I saw myself (I was there when it happend). If you know so much about handguns then I'm amazed you don't consider 1 jam a month to be way too much with so few active shooters <span id='postcolor'>

Oh, then I guess I was lying. Whatever.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Shadow @ Dec. 17 2002,14:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BaronVonRed @ Dec. 18 2002,12:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">there are like um, 12 OTHER SHOOTERS at our range, uh, is that okay with you? Um, should I draw a picture? Can you figure it out from there?<span id='postcolor'>

If there's only 12 shooters at the range at a time, there's way too much jamming.

The range I talked about (is very small) has around 500-600 members and 40-50 of those are active. The range is open 3 days a week. And still I've only heard of those two jams I saw myself (I was there when it happend). If you know so much about handguns then I'm amazed you don't consider 1 jam a month to be way too much with so few active shooters  <span id='postcolor'>

Why the hell is it too much?  There probable are some idiots out there who don't take care of their guns so they have some problems once in a while.

What's all the fuss about? (god i love saying that)

Edit: Damn man, what's wrong with your postcounter?

[shadow 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then according to your formular, there is a 10% chance of failure?<span id='postcolor'>

Okay, so if I said 99% instead, would that make you feel any better? Those numbers were purely for showing that if you follow my points (maintenance, good cartridges etc) you should have a pretty problemfree handgun, but ofcourse, there are never any guarantees for anything.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Firstly, it doesn't have to STOP the slide....<span id='postcolor'>

You can hold the slide with your thumb when firing a .22lr

Never try that with any higher calibre as it will either end with a broken thumb or worse; a completely smashed thumb beyond surgicaly repair. Therefor you need quite a bit of force to stop the slide from working properly. Especially if factory-made ammo is used as it is always on the edge of being overloaded. Those who load their own ammo know what I'm talking about. So that force to "slow down" the slide would be so strong it would knock the gun out of your hand before interfering with the weapon-functionality. Ofcourse I have'nt tried this so I can't prove this 100% but common sense tells me I'm onto something.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">when the barrel is obstructed it has a negative impact on the bullet. Instead of the gasses and heat being pushed outward, these get reflected back down the barrel (called back-pressure), and this interferes with the eject/feed process<span id='postcolor'>

There are many degrees to how obstructed a barrel can get. A completely plugged barrel is inherently dangerous to fire as it might cause the chamber to explode and schrapnels in your face. Small pieces of dirt/sand in the barrel usually just wear the barrel more. The preassure inside the chamber have little or no effect on the loading of the cartridge as long as the slide goes from completely back to completely forward.

[Frizbee 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BaronVonRed @ Dec. 17 2002,19:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[Mostly true, but not entirely. I agree with the loading aspects, provided there are pre-loaded clips available.

My .357 Magnum revolver actually has seven shots, and a co-worker friend of mine has a .357 revolver that actually holds 8. But, you can still get more from a clip, so I will have to concede that point.<span id='postcolor'>

I used the term 6 shots due to the stereotypical "six-shooter" image of revolvers. I know that the chamber size of some revolvers made over the years has reached 10 or even 12 rounds.

As for the fact that if you shoot your semi-auto at point blank with the muzzle actually touching the person. Certainly, your next round will probably jam.

But if you've just shot the person at point blank, I think their problems will be alot greater than any Jam you might get with your own weapon.

But granted, even good maintenance can not guarantee you will not have jams. Hence my statement "the likely hood of a jam in standard usage will be fairly low"

Standard usage = range conditions in this case. Thus eliminating any chance of a blocked muzzle, or obstructed ejection port.

[Mister Frag 0]

Actually, any properly designed automatic will not fire when the muzzle is pressed against an opponent with sufficient force, because this would push back on the slide and force the pistol out of battery.

That's another advantage of revolvers, and the reason why some of them are known as "belly guns" -- they are last-defense weapons you can literaly shove into your opponents belly if he/she gets within contact range.

[Frizbee 0]

"Sufficient force" is different than plain contact though...

It's the difference between an execution style killing and having the opponent jumping on you, in which case it would probably be better if you had a Melee weapon or Taser you knew how to use, rather than a gun.

I'd still choose a semi-auto over a revolver... personal taste.

[Mister Frag 0]

My personal preference is actually also the pistol, but I wanted to explain one possible shortcoming of them. In the case of the Beretta 92 ("M9"), an opponent can also easily disable the pistol and remove the slide with one hand using the takedown lever.

Now, if we could all just PLEASE stop calling a magazine a "clip", I'll be happy...

[pzvg 0]

In automatics ammo quality can play hell with a gun,

even if the ammo is high quality.

My 1911a1 eats .45 ACP without a burp, no problem, load up with matchgrade (or for that matter anything over 180 gr) and it will jam just about every other shot, no gunsmith has ever found a good reason for it, most guess that she's peculiar about her diet.

Now for a weapon that jams once a decade, try a single action double barreled 12 ga.

[FSPilot 0]

jams or misfires? factory or home reloaded ammo?

I've got a question for all the phorensics and ballistics gurus out there. Since they're fingerprinting guns now, using imprints on the bullet to match to the barrel of a gun, whats to stop criminals from using shotguns?

[Mister Frag 0]

The whole idea of ballistic fingerprinting is nonsense anyway, there are too many ways to defeat it.

For starters, ballistic fingerprints change over time, so the information that the government has on file from when the firearm left the factory will not identify the weapon beyond a reasonable doubt. If that phrase rings a bell, it's because that is what will get you off the hook in a jury trial.

Secondly, the ballistic fingerprint can easily and quickly be altered. Firing pins can be swapped out, chambers can be reamed, and barrel marks can be modified in minutes by fire lapping the barrel.

Finally, all you have to do is use frangible ammunition and pick up your brass (or use a weapon that doesn't automatically eject the shells), and there will be no ballistic evidence to collect.

[shadow 6]

0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Dec. 19 2002,040)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the case of the Beretta 92 ("M9"), an opponent can also easily disable the pistol and remove the slide with one hand using the takedown lever<span id='postcolor'>

It's possible, and easy, but too timeconsuming!!!

To move the lever down you need to first hold a pin in on the opposite side of the frame. The spring for the pin is quite tense. While holding the pin in you then push the lever 90 degrees down.

After you wrote that, I tried.

Maybe I just need some practive, but I can't really see that as an option in a real situation.

Errm can you wait a couple of seconds before firing so that I got a chance of removing your slide, mister?  

[madmedic 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (pzvg @ Dec. 18 2002,13:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">His weapon was fouled by water and water only,

<crossing a paddy 5 km south of a place called Quan tri dop>

The forward assist was required on the weapon due to the light cartridge being easily unseated by anything, even a film of water on the mating surfaces- Not my words, Colt's

Anyway not going to get in a pissing match about it,

Do note when trying to pin a failure on cleaniness/maintenance, barring undocumented events during the wars in the Age of Reason, no enemy in history has ever allowed time for you to break down and clean your weapon, you try to do it as often as you can, but it's just not always possible.

Militaries understand this, which is why they place such a high standard on reliability, The M1911 met the standard for years, the AK went beyond the standard whenever possible, and until the A2 series, the M16 failed miserably, but don't take my word for it, any number of firearms writers of good repute would be happy to back that one up.<span id='postcolor'>

FIRST OF ALL.....It wasnt my intent to start a "PISSING MATCH"   LOL...  (thats the problem with message boards,...you cant express emotion with the written word) except of course with smileys...

That being said....everything you said here is 100% correct.

I simply (incorrectly?) understood your initial post as stating that the Nam era M16s were "blowing up" all over the place.

Water in the barrel of any firearm is dangerous. If the barrel actually has water pooled in it, then you have an "obstruction"...very dangerous. If there is a "film" of water in the chamber/barrel...it can actually cause greater chamber pressure when a round is fired...also dangerous.

To heavy of an oil film in the barrel/chamber can do the same thing.

Colt's words, about the forward assist ARE (kinda) true, but in order for the cartridge to be "unseated"...the bolt/carrier are also not fully engaged...(and the firing pin is not long enough to protrude through the bolt face until that happens)

(Note Colt's "spin" on the subject: "the light cartridge being easily unseated".....as opposed to a short stroke, or other rifle malfunctions LOL.)

Actually, the weight of the cartridge has nothing to do with seating it....the foreward pressure/momentum of the recoil spring is what moves the carrier/bolt/cartridge into engagement.

When the rifle "short strokes" (which can be caused by gas system fouling)...The bolt/carrier does not depress the recoil spring far enough to gain the proper amount of momentum to fully chamber a round....you can push it the rest of the way in with the forward assist (if you notice what happened before you pull the trigger)...But, if you have already pulled the trigger, you will be greeted by the dreaded "click", instead of bang...and you will have to pull the charging handle again anyway, to return the hammer to the cocked position

Sorry to hear about your friend, by the way (dont remember if I said that in my other post)

[dayglow 2]

Didn't Jackie Chan do that in a movie? Guy has gun to him, he reaches out and takes the slide right off.

COLINMAN

[shadow 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DayGlow @ Dec. 19 2002,15:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Didn't Jackie Chan do that in a movie? Guy has gun to him, he reaches out and takes the slide right off.

COLINMAN<span id='postcolor'>

That was Jet Li who did that to Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon 4

Do you really think that is possible to any firearm where the slide-lock is on?

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmedic @ Dec. 18 2002,16:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(thats the problem with message boards,...you cant express emotion with the written word) except of course with smileys...<span id='postcolor'>

You better watch out, like i've said many times before, smilies can mean a lot of things!

What's this? Is an ironic smilie? Is it a "i'm gonna ban you soon" smilie Å• la placebo? Is it just a happy smilie?

Aaaaaaaaaaargh!

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Shadow @ Dec. 18 2002,16:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DayGlow @ Dec. 19 2002,15:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Didn't Jackie Chan do that in a movie? Guy has gun to him, he reaches out and takes the slide right off.

COLINMAN<span id='postcolor'>

That was Jet Li who did that to Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon 4

Do you really think that is possible to any firearm where the slide-lock is on?  <span id='postcolor'>

I think Jackie Chan has done that too, dunno what movie, i don't watch that kinda stuff...

[shadow 6]

Please stay on topic , everyone

or user..... erm this topic will be closed

/i'm-gonna-ban-you-soon/placebo-mode off

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Shadow @ Dec. 19 2002,00:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Dec. 19 2002,04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In the case of the Beretta 92 ("M9"), an opponent can also easily disable the pistol and remove the slide with one hand using the takedown lever<span id='postcolor'>

It's possible, and easy, but too timeconsuming!!!

To move the lever down you need to first hold a pin in on the opposite side of the frame. The spring for the pin is quite tense. While holding the pin in you then push the lever 90 degrees down.

After you wrote that, I tried.

Maybe I just need some practive, but I can't really see that as an option in a real situation.

Errm can you wait a couple of seconds before firing so that I got a chance of removing your slide, mister?  <!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

It's been demonstrated to me by a gunsmith I know. He showed me how to do it after telling me a fun story...

He was walking in a local shopping mall with a big fanny pack that was clearly (for the trained eye) designed to carry a firearm. Two LAPD officers approached him and asked him if he was carrying a concealed weapon. He said "Yes", and was asked to follow the officers to a nearby security office.

While there, he produced his CCW permit, and one of the cops commented on the S&W pistol that the gunsmith was carrying; I'm not sure exactly what he said, but it was something negative.

My acquaintance then told him that he is a full-time gunsmith, that his S&W had been 100% reliable over the years, and that he saw far more Berettas (what the cops were carrying) in his shop than S&W pistols. He also said that he liked the fact that an opponent couldn't simply take off the slide if he got close enough.

That last statement got the cops attention. They hadn't heard of the possibility, and didn't believe the gunsmith. He asked one of the cops to unload his gun and point it at him. The gunsmith placed his left hand over the top of the slide, and a moment later the cop was missing half his gun.

I've never tried doing that myself, but also had it demonstrated to me by the same gentleman. I'm sure it takes some practice, but it isn't a movie invention, and can happen very quickly.

[BaronVonRed 0]

This manuever is also taught at most certified (don't ask) bodyguard schools. From what I understand, though, it DOES require quite a bit of practice. It wouldn't stop me from owning one of those fine pistols, though!

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BaronVonRed @ Dec. 18 2002,21:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This manuever is also taught at most certified (don't ask) bodyguard schools. From what I understand, though, it DOES require quite a bit of practice. It wouldn't stop me from owning one of those fine pistols, though!  <span id='postcolor'>

Just shoot the bastard before he gets close!!!!!

Mr frag, that gunsmith that you know could play in the newest jackie chan movie

Tell him to do some auditions! If you ask me, he has a pretty nice chance!

[Mister Frag 0]

As mentioned earlier, you don't even have to take the slide completely off to disable a pistol -- all you have to do is move the slide back enough to get it out of battery. You can do that with one finger...

[shadow 6]

LOL and I thought I'd heard it all

If these are arguements to not own a Beretta (or any other similar pistol for that matter), then that's pretty weak

I guess under ideal circumstances those moves might work, but on any other day all the shooter has to do is pull the trigger before the gunsmith comes even close

Well you got me laughing atleast.

Thanks for that