The Iraq Thread

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Feb. 05 2003,04:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Say that it was Saddam they were targeting. Would it be ok?<span id='postcolor'>

In principle, yes.  But the world trade center attacks were carried out to inflict casualties, not to take out a specific person.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you are referring to killing kids, then look at your doorstep first. The US is currently one of the few nations in the world which has capital punishment for children. <span id='postcolor'>

As a form of deterrent and punishment, not as a way to entice the parents into doing Saddam's bidding.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Looking at hrw.org I can see numerous countries that are in as bad shape as Iraq or worse.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, so we should just forget about Iraq's human rights abuses.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The arbitrary detention of non-citizens, secret deportation hearings for persons suspected of connections to terrorism, the authorization of military commissions to try non-citizen terrorists<span id='postcolor'>

Of course our civil liberties are going to be slimmed down some.  The 09/11 terrorists abused those liberties and attacked our country.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the failure to abide by the Geneva Conventions in the treatment of detainees held by the United States in Cuba, and the military detention without charge or access to counsel of U.S. citizens designated as "enemy combatants," were among the U.S. actions that indicated the failure of the Bush administration to respect human rights and humanitarian law in its anti-terrorist campaign.<span id='postcolor'>

That wouldn't happen to be the Geneva convention that we didn't sign would it?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It isnt Saddam that is going to be bombing Iraq, it is the US. We know it, the Iraqis know it, it seems you are the only one who missed that small fact.<span id='postcolor'>

And you're missing the small fact that Saddam is the one that got his people bombed, and is going to get his people bombed by not disarming.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, Saddam started the Gulf War, correct. But I dont think he was totally without support from the population in doing so. Yes, Saddam drafted people, but many voulenteered aswell. Far from all soldiers were forced into duty.<span id='postcolor'>

Granted, but some were.  Then again, his whole people were lied too.

edit - and this news of 4 emtpy warheads is just more proof that saddam is lying. he didn't mention those in his 12,000 page report, apparently. this is why I cracked up when I read "Every fair-minded person knows that when Iraqi officials say something, they are trustworthy."

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh, so we should just forget about Iraq's human rights abuses.<span id='postcolor'>

While your at it, have a look at our allies to the South. Women for example, have more freedom in Iraq than Saudi, or Kuwait! They can drive cars, unveil their faces, use the stock exchange, etc (Actually, to be fair, Kuwait now allows women into the stock exchange since last week. They have a glass box with a few chairs, where they can view the men at work!

Point being, people are bleating on about the nasty stuff going on in Iraq regarding human rights etc, while the entire bloody region is at it.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Feb. 05 2003,00:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">edit - and this news of 4 emtpy warheads is just more proof that saddam is lying.  he didn't mention those in his 12,000 page report, apparently.  this is why I cracked up when I read "Every fair-minded person knows that when Iraqi officials say something, they are trustworthy."<span id='postcolor'>

I don't think it can be considered proof that he is lying. If anything it just shows that there are unknown warheads spread across the country. Four here, one there, six here. Empty warheads in ammo dumps is hardly proof of deception, especially when the Iraqi's themselves turned them in.

What it also shows is the difficulty showing true disarmament entails. What if Iraq or the UN finds 10 or 20 empty shells in an unused ammo dump, obviously cast asides and lost in the general bueracratic nightmare of disarmament?  Iraq really can't be expected to know for sure where every single little warhead is.

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Point being, people are bleating on about the nasty stuff going on in Iraq regarding human rights etc, while the entire bloody region is at it. <span id='postcolor'>

Just cause everyone is doing it doesn't make it right.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Feb. 05 2003,00:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Point being, people are bleating on about the nasty stuff going on in Iraq regarding human rights etc, while the entire bloody region is at it. <span id='postcolor'>

Just cause everyone is doing it doesn't make it right.<span id='postcolor'>

No, it doesnt. But all of the things the pro war reactioaries bleat as a way to justify 'getting saddam' (past the weapons issues) can be applied to virtually any of the US allies in the Persian Gulf.

[Frisbee 0]

The point was not to say that Iraq is entitled to do it because everyone is,but it is that there are other states who disregard human rights just as much,sometimes more than iraq,and some of those are even allies of the us.

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Feb. 05 2003,00:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Say that it was Saddam they were targeting. Would it be ok?<span id='postcolor'>

In principle, yes.  But the world trade center attacks were carried out to inflict casualties, not to take out a specific person.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Looking at hrw.org I can see numerous countries that are in as bad shape as Iraq or worse.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, so we should just forget about Iraq's human rights abuses.<span id='postcolor'>

First point: you just don't get hypothetical arguments do you? It took Denoir 3 attempts before you posted anything resembling an answer. Do you understand the point he was making?

Second point: why the smart alec response? No it doesn't make it OK, but if you can stretch your memory back a page or two, this is in reply to the fact you implied that Iraq is the worst human rights violator in the world and that no country's citizens have it worse.

Harnu: no it doesn't make it right, but he was pointing out the hypocracy of people berating Iraq for it and not allied countries in the region.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Feb. 05 2003,06:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">While your at it, have a look at our allies to the South. Women for example, have more freedom in Iraq than Saudi, or Kuwait! They can drive cars, unveil their faces, use the stock exchange, etc (Actually, to be fair, Kuwait now allows women into the stock exchange since last week. They have a glass box with a few chairs, where they can view the men at work!<span id='postcolor'>

That is, if they're not being raped by a professional rapist.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Point being, people are bleating on about the nasty stuff going on in Iraq regarding human rights etc, while the entire bloody region is at it.<span id='postcolor'>

And that's a reason to do nothing about it?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, it doesnt. But all of the things the pro war reactioaries bleat as a way to justify 'getting saddam' (past the weapons issues) can be applied to virtually any of the US allies in the Persian Gulf.<span id='postcolor'>

So it's OK because the US allies do it?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Second point: why the smart alec response? No it doesn't make it OK, but if you can stretch your memory back a page or two, this is in reply to the fact you implied that Iraq is the worst human rights violator in the world and that no country's citizens have it worse.<span id='postcolor'>

YOU're talking to me about making smart alec comments? And I implied? Tough.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">no it doesn't make it right, but he was pointing out the hypocracy of people berating Iraq for it and not allied countries in the region.<span id='postcolor'>

But it's not hypocracy. It's a good reason to take saddam out of power. We're not going to go to war with him because he has kids tortured in front of their parents, we're going to war because he hasn't proven that he's disarmed. The human rights abuses, which the Saddam supporters are so valiantly trying to defend, are only a good reason to get him out of power.

[Guest]

I knew there was a good reason why I stopped discussing this topic with FSPilot. I'll just go back to that policy

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Feb. 05 2003,01:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Second point: why the smart alec response? No it doesn't make it OK, but if you can stretch your memory back a page or two, this is in reply to the fact you implied that Iraq is the worst human rights violator in the world and that no country's citizens have it worse.<span id='postcolor'>

YOU're talking to me about making smart alec comments?  And I implied?  Tough.<span id='postcolor'>

I didn't think you would answer that one. Sidestep when caught with your foot in your mouth.

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 05 2003,01:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I knew there was a good reason why I stopped discussing this topic with FSPilot. I'll just go back to that policy <span id='postcolor'>

Too right! There is no debating with irrationality. I think I will go back to that policy too.

[joshnolan225 0]

hold up for a sec, this is becoming more serious than it should be.  this is an area for people to voice and discuss their opinions, i enjoy hearing Denoir's and Major Fubars ideas, and the others, dude dont leave,pilot i agree wholheartedly with you, just calm down alittle, everyone.including me who made some aggressive posts earlier for which i appoligise*

[Guest]

joshnolan225: We've had these discussions for 220 pages now. After a while you see a pattern of behaviour of those that post. While I fully support FSPilots right to have an opinion, I have given up the idea of having a sensible discussion with him.

I think that most people that have been posting here will recognise these cycles of our discssions:

[Major Fubar 0]

Josh, it's OK. I'm not PO'd or anything, it is just impossible to have a rational or logical debate with certain people.

I'm not withdrawing from the thread entirely.

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 05 2003,01:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think that most people that have been posting here will recognise these cycles of our discssions:

<span id='postcolor'>

LMAO! If I don't know any better I'd swear those were custom written about FSPilot.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (joshnolan225 @ Feb. 05 2003,06:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I didn't think you would answer that one. Sidestep when caught with your foot in your mouth.  <span id='postcolor'>

Foot in my mouth?  You're criticising me for making smart alec remarks for something I didn't even say, while you yourself have attacked me personally instead of stepping up and arguing like you should have.  It only proves to me that your argumet is completly unfounded and wouldn't stand up to a slight breeze.

And wow, more cartoons.  It's easy to argue when you don't have anyone arguing against you, like in a cartoon.

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Harnu: no it doesn't make it right, but he was pointing out the hypocracy of people berating Iraq for it and not allied countries in the region. <span id='postcolor'>

I must be a true American, I don't see how you can view it as just plain hypocracy.

There Hypocracy, then there's Hypocracy with reason.

Our reason is we need every reason we can get to kick out Saddam. (More reasons just make it easier by the international community) For instance, lets say we were fighting another place, say Saudi Arabia. Then we'd bring up the same issue on them. That goes for any other country as well that treates people like that. But since we aren't fighting them, why bitch them around?

The above makes sense to me, if you still don't see my point, just remember, I'm American

[joshnolan225 0]

im glad you wont totally leave, and denoir, please stay,i have to say that those cartoons are relativly funny, i think that they neglect to give some credit to those of us who support the war who actually have a legitamate arguement. i used to be a hard line conservative and i got sick of those same people who used the same rhetoric to prove a moot point, i used to do that, while your cartoons are artistically stimulating , i kinda hope that you can realize that yes there are some assholes,( no allusions to anyone in particlar) but there is a legit arguement. I have to agree with FS pilot, his avatar is cool too, but i agree for diferent reasons, and yes it is difficult to argue against bull shit( not pointing any fingers, so no not you FS), but im rambling and im soooo tired, anyway i am glad that Major FUBAR still speaks and i hope denoir will too. i also hope that i can get some dinner soon because im friggin starving ........

[joshnolan225 0]

uhhh FS pilot, i didnt say that that was Major Fubar, your quote box says i said what he said but ididnt say what he said, and damn im hungary,and calm down dude..... it ok    ( we know were right)*

                * just a little joke, please dont get mad.... [qu

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (joshnolan225 @ Feb. 05 2003,07:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">uhhh FS pilot, i didnt say that that was Major Fubar, your quote box says i said what he said but ididnt say what he said, and damn im hungary,and calm down dude..... it ok    ( we know were right)*

                * just a little joke, please dont get mad....    [qu<span id='postcolor'>

It's a glitch, I clicked the quote button to reply to you, but then deleted my reply and your message, but the information stays there.

[Mister 5 0]

Quick question, hoping not to get off topic...

How many of you have changed your opinion(s) about the possibility of war in Iraq in the last two or three months?

[Badgerboy 0]

Looks like Blix has discovered new evidence concerning WMD's!

Sorry  

I love this bit - </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The man at the center of the controversy is North Dakota's leader, Gov. John Hoeven. Having risen to power in 2000 after amassing tremendous wealth in the private sector, Hoeven lives a life of comfort and excess inside the heavily patrolled North Dakota governor's mansion, a lavish dwelling paid for entirely by the state, while many of his people engage in subsistence farming.<span id='postcolor'>

[Major Fubar 0]

Against my better judgement, I will bite.

OK, time to show just how much FSPilot has a selective memory -

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Feb. 04 2003,23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

There are nations where the civilians have it far worse than in Iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

Not human rights wise.  You obviously haven't read what he's doing to his people.<span id='postcolor'>

Now this post by FSPliot says that he believes Iraq has the worst human rights record in the world.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Feb. 05 2003,01:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Second point: why the smart alec response? No it doesn't make it OK, but if you can stretch your memory back a page or two, this is in reply to the fact you implied that Iraq is the worst human rights violator in the world and that no country's citizens have it worse.<span id='postcolor'>

YOU're talking to me about making smart alec comments?  And I implied?  Tough.<span id='postcolor'>

...I guess my mistake was using the word implied, you didn't imply, you outright stated! ...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Feb. 05 2003,01:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I didn't think you would answer that one. Sidestep when caught with your foot in your mouth.  <!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

Foot in my mouth?  You're criticising me for making smart alec remarks for something I didn't even say, while you yourself have attacked me personally instead of stepping up and arguing like you should have.  It only proves to me that your argumet is completly unfounded and wouldn't stand up to a slight breeze.<span id='postcolor'>

You didn't even say it? I guess my quotes above are a figment of my imagination eh?

And I hardly consider undermining your debating abilities a personal attack, it is a tactic used in every debate I have ever seen.

The point I was trying to make wasn't that Iraq human rights violations are non-existant, or trying to excuse them. I was questioning the stance you took over the original hrw.org quoter. You were twisting what people were saying to make it look like they didn't care about human rights abuses at all.

[joshnolan225 0]

damn that was good dinner(chile) anyone see JAG, damn that was awesome, god, loveit, anyway, FUBAR, ur just itchin for it...... and its gonna start all over again, lets all just move on

[joshnolan225 0]

dude that North Dakota thing sonds like it was written by the left opposite of many heavy right wingers, it wasnt even funny and it bored me, in addition to having no value whatso ever, the author took the situation extremely out of context. no one can compare North Dakota where nuclear weapons were placed for American defense during the cold war, not in aggressive use, as opposed to Iraq, which in my opinion is pursuing WMDs for an aggressive purpose,especially when A:there isnt a nuclear threat from any other nation, And B:we ccan have Nukess they cant, so says the UN........ also have a happy day.....