The Iraq Thread

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> how many died in the gulf war? not many<span id='postcolor'>

there died plenty of them.

This time the war is taken to cities with a totally different scenario.The people don´t flee cities right now. Even if they intended to do so, they will find borders to Turkey and Iran locked. It is quite different to fight a war in open desert or in crowded cities. We expect a high rate of deaths of Iraqi civillians. Look at the locations where the battles will be fought and rethink your statement.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (joshnolan225 @ Feb. 04 2003,12:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">yes civilians may die, how many died in the gulf war? not many,<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">IRAQ: Baghdad put its losses at 75,000 to 100,000 soldiers killed in action and 35,000 to 45,000 civilians killed by allied bombing.

U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency estimated 100,000 Iraqi soldiers killed and 300,000 wounded, and 2,500 to 3,000 Iraqi civilians killed by bombing. It said accurate information was so scant that these figures had error factor of at least 50 percent.

<span id='postcolor'>

Source: Stars and Stripes

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">anyway, targets have to be civilian for innocent people to die, or saddamm has to put them in military targets, <span id='postcolor'>

Obviously you don't have the first clue about the realities of war so I'm not even going to comment on that absurd statement.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">so should we not defend ourselves cause he uses his own people as human sheilds?[/<span id='postcolor'>

Not defend, attack. You are going to attack iraq.

[WhoCares 0]

Just remember this one smart bomb, blowing up a civilian bunker with ~400 people inside.

[Guest]

Let me tell you a little story about collateral damage. On the second day of my arrival in Kosovo I went to downtown Pristina to meet an Albanian translator who was serving as a liaison between UN and KFOR. When I got into the town, I was stunned by the total destruction. There was not one building that was intact. I told the translator: “Damn, I never knew it was so bad. The Serbs really destroyed this placeâ€. He laughed a short ironic laugh and said “Come with me, I’ll show you something.â€. We had met in the town centre by the town hall and now he took me behind the building to a park. We went through the park to another building whose roof was entirely caved in and pieces of the walls were missing. Inside he led me to a large room that was some form of auditorium. There was a large object stuck in one of the walls: the rests of a cruise missile with the proud “Raytheon†logo still on it.

“We can’t move it because it is a bearing wall and the building would collapse†he said. “This used to be a school. Fortunately the missile struck on a Sunday and there were no kids here. Two children and their mother were however killed by the explosion while walking in the parkâ€. He continued: “Don’t take me wrong, something had to be done against Milosevic and I am glad that America realized that. This is not however what we expected or wanted. Such help we can live withoutâ€.

I later found out that his cousin and the cousin’s family were killed by a US bomb that missed a TV station by 500 m and hit a residential area.

The translator, Ibrahim, and I became later good friends. He later permanently transferred to our team as our translator.

Last year he was killed along with three Albanian policemen when they were clearing out UXO from a field near a village. They were clearing bomblets from a US cluster bomb not knowing that a larger Paveway ‘Smart Bomb’ was buried in the field. When detonating a bomblet they accidentally triggered the Paveway and four of them were instantly killed. He left behind a wife and four children.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Last year he was killed along with three Albanian policemen when they were clearing out UXO from a field near a village. They were clearing bomblets from a US cluster bomb not knowing that a larger Paveway ‘Smart Bomb’ was buried in the field. When detonating a bomblet they accidentally triggered the Paveway and four of them were instantly killed. He left behind a wife and four children. <span id='postcolor'>

I am very sorry to hear that.

I have met several mine and bomb clearing teams over the years and got friend with a guy from Peru who seemed to be whereever I went. We got friends after a while and we coordinated our tasks so that we were able to meet whenever possible. 2 years ago I lost contact to him but didn´t worry much cause he was a very cautiouse guy. After 4 months of no contact I phoned the UNHCR in Peru to see if they had info about him. They told me that he was killed in Chechnia where they tried to build a well. He was killed by a mine trap. Origin unknown.

End of story, end of friendship and one more loss amongst the people I have had the luck to meet during my missions.

[Major Fubar 0]

3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Feb. 04 2003,133)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not defend, attack. You are going to attack iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

Exactly Denoir, the American press has somehow indoctrinated the American public to believe that there is proof positive that Iraq has definite plans to nuke or release biological/chemical weapons in the USA. The word defend implies an immediate and proven threat...If I shoot a guy I suspect may be going to stab me, without having seen that he has a knife, or if I suspect he is going to slip the knife to someone else to stab me with, is murder (maybe manslaughter, if the judge if very liberal), not self defence (at least in any just court of law).

Can I just rehash the fact that Iraq has no long range delivery vessles (ICBMs) for the weapons to reach further than the Middle East.

And there is no basis to believe that Iraq is distributing these weapons to terrorist organisations other than wild specualtion and panaoia. The real world isn't like a James Bond, Chuck Norris or Arnie movie.

Question: if certain terrorist groups are so anti-US and extreme, why havent they assassinated the president? They have had ample oppotunity to make a serious attempt if they had wanted to (no I don't include the plane reportedly headed for Camp David as a serious attempt)...Becuase they fear the backlash against their countries (or organisation), most likely. Don't you think the backlash would be even greater if they nuked (or anthraxed etc.) a US city? An attack that takes out two buildings and several thousand caused enough world antipathy against Al Queda and Afghanistan, a nuke would galvanise the entire free world against the perpetrator.

Anyway, my point is that Iraq isn't a singificant to the US...no where near the threat that that North Korea is. The only reasons I can assume is the priimary target is 1.) oil...but most of the pro War-on-Iraq posters here have claimed not, 2.) anger of the WTC attack, and that anger transferred to Iraq due to a tenuous (unsubstantiated?) link between Iraq and Al Queda, 3.) maintaining the momentum of the US war machine after Afghanistan.

I really can't bring myself to belive the US public honestly believe that unless America attacks Iraq immediately (without waiting for UN sanction), their lives and country are at risk. And if they do belive that, I must suspect it is more the result of mass hysteria and media hype than calm reasoning. But I believe that recent polls show support for a US attack on Iraq to have dropped significantly in the last few months, so maybe the population of America are more intelligent and level headed than I had given them credit for.

Come on, just wait for the UN. That's all most of the world (and people here) is asking you for.

[Jinef 2]

Sad story, i'm sure though FSPilot or another dedicated patriot will soon prove it to be factually incorrect.

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Feb. 04 2003,13:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Last year he was killed along with three Albanian policemen when they were clearing out UXO from a field near a village. They were clearing bomblets from a US cluster bomb not knowing that a larger Paveway ‘Smart Bomb’ was buried in the field. When detonating a bomblet they accidentally triggered the Paveway and four of them were instantly killed. He left behind a wife and four children. <span id='postcolor'>

I am very sorry to hear that.

I have met several mine and bomb clearing teams over the years and got friend with a guy from Peru who seemed to be whereever I went. We got friends after a while and we coordinated our tasks so that we were able to meet whenever possible. 2 years ago I lost contact to him but didn´t worry much cause he was a very cautiouse guy. After 4 months of no contact I phoned the UNHCR in Peru to see if they had info about him. They told me that he was killed in Chechnia where they tried to build a well. He was killed by a mine trap. Origin unknown.

End of story, end of friendship and one more loss amongst the people I have had the luck to meet during my missions.<span id='postcolor'>

Man, both of those stories are so sad.

I'm really sorry for you guys and the friends you lost.

[Jinef 2]

I'm sure the pro war people are claiming that it has nothing to do with oil

I was watching the news the other day (morbid process ) and the American military were carefully explaining their battle plans, "FIRSTLY WE ARE GOING TO DEPLOY STRATEGIC AIR ASSETS AGAINST MILITARY TARGETS. THEN WE ARE GOING TO DESTROY IRAQI ASSETS OF GREAT THREAT WITH SPECIAL FORCES. THEN ARMOURED DIVISIONS WILL SIEZE THE OIL FIELDS IN THE NORTH AND SOUTH OF IRAQ." Then Rummy comes on, "This has nothing to do with oil! Ain't that right Georgie and Mr Bush Sir?"

[Balschoiw 0]

There is an ongoing rumour on the floors here. The US is currently undermining the UN itself by proposing their war if justified or not, with or without UN mandate. This is the current situation.

Now what could this mean for the UN future ?

It is likely once the US do a solo run to Iraq without UN permission, it won´t take long till G.W.Bush will announce this question : "Is the UN still a thing USA wants to take part in?"

YOu understand what I mean ? The US government is going solo ways a lot at the moment. Kyoto, ICC, and UN.

Doesn´t this show that they are not willing to accept the UN as a higher institution ?

As I said this is a rumour, but if you check how much money USA owes the UN you see why they are possibly tempted to leave for US reaons. The USA is the biggest non-payer to UN. .Currently the debts of USA to UN are around 1.2 billion dollars.

I know FS and all the other´s will come running and screaming now, but that is the facts. Due to the high debts UN has already problems to keep it´s programs up. How to undermine the UN best ? Don´t give them money anymore.

Sidenote: Yesterday premier Aznar (head of spain) held a press conference and revealed that the he has proof for Iraq posessing WMD´s, links to international terrorrism and so on.

He did not tell which proof of course.

It´s funny if you see that Aznar has been to Mr Bush lately and now he claims that spanish intelligence has proof. This is so sick. Ah yes, maybe it is about Repsol ?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Feb. 04 2003,14:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm really sorry for you guys and the friends you lost.<span id='postcolor'>

Thank you.

What war advocates fail to realise is that when you take an action there are consequences. When you drop a bomb people die. Real people - not some abstract phenomna. The civilians we talk and worry about are not some kind of fictional characters. They are very real fathers, sons, mothers, daughters. It's about the five year old girl who loses both her parents. That is the reality of war.

It is not a coincidence that people who have seen the consequences of war are against it. I've recently discussed the Iraq issue with some buddies that I did my military service with. There were several that were pro war but each and every one that has actually been to a war zone on peace keeping missions are dead against it.

Why is that? Easy: if you see the consequences up close, you think twice. The real picture is very much clouded in media. You see pictures of cool looking aircraft firing missiles and dropping bombs. An orgy in military hardware, what's there not to like? Media however fails to show what effects all those bombs and missiles have. Even in the exceptional cases when they do show civilian casualties, it's still pretty abstract. They are abstract pictures of anonymous people on your TV display. They are however real people, no different from you and your family.

It is too bad that today’s political leaders have no experience of what a war is like. It would make them think twice.

[foxer 0]

Blah ,this oil thing was like 100 pages ago.Maybe they want to take the oil fields because they are scared iraq will set them on fire again.Also someone tell me how iraq makes money.It's not like they are selling oranges to make lots of money.IS the media not covering their countless number of farm lands ? DAmn that biased media.DAmn them to hell.

They sell oil.Oil is what brings the country money.Blah anything to make it sound like an oil war(even though it might be).Also iraq will be in opec,because if their not Lots of middle-east countries will get Piss.

When is the UN going stop getting push around by iraq and say that's it.I mean they did sign the peace treaty deal that said they can't have chemical weapons.If they didn't US and allies probably would have went alll the way and got saddam.Most likely that iraq would probably launch chemical war though.

[Longinius 1]

"They sell oil.Oil is what brings the country money"

No Foxer, they trade oil for food. You know, the Oil for Food Program? Ring any bells?

"When is the UN going stop getting push around by iraq and say that's it."

Counter argument:

When is the UN going to stop getting Bushed around by the US and say thats it?

[brgnorway 0]

.....I sometimes become so tired of some of you US people!

Are you so full of ideology that you prevent yourself from seing what you country is about to do? Or are you tryly what the knowledge test in National Geographic suggested: uneducated. Perhaps it's a combination? I don't know, but since so many people around the world will be badly affected it realy scares me!

If you keep on this way you won't have any friends left at all. That's not a situation to long for - not even the worlds only superpower.

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Feb. 04 2003,15:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"They sell oil.Oil is what brings the country money"

No Foxer, they trade oil for food. You know, the Oil for Food Program? Ring any bells?

"When is the UN going stop getting push around by iraq and say that's it."

Counter argument:

When is the UN going to stop getting Bushed around by the US and say thats it?<span id='postcolor'>

B]No Foxer, they trade oil for food. You know, the Oil for Food Program? Ring any bells?[/b]

Don't they sell the oil for money ,but with the money they can only buy food for their people? It's the samething anyways.

Counter argument:

When is the UN going to stop getting Bushed around by the US and say thats it?

This isn't about the US.It's about iraq and what they have signed,and what they have or don't have.It's easy to point the blame at US for any iraq problem because Us doesn't want to be push around by iraq.But the problem is Iraq.They shouldn't have it.

I wouldn't care if iraq had chemical weapons.But they seem to be careless with them.That why i care.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Feb. 04 2003,16:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">.....I sometimes become so tired of some of you US people!<span id='postcolor'>

Believe me, many people don't care for condescending Europeans either!

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Feb. 04 2003,15:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">.....I sometimes become so tired of some of you US people!

Are you so full of ideology that you prevent yourself from seing what you country is about to do? Or are you tryly what the knowledge test in National Geographic suggested: uneducated. Perhaps it's a combination? I don't know, but since so many people around the world will be badly affected it realy scares me!

If you keep on this way you won't have any friends left at all. That's not a situation to long for - not even the worlds only superpower.

<span id='postcolor'>

So you don't like my opinions ? Well i don't like your opinions,but i don't say "Or are you tryly what the knowledge test in National Geographic suggested: uneducated".Well if i would say something like they probably would ban me for 24hours .

If you keep on this way you won't have any friends left at all. That's not a situation to long for - not even the worlds only superpower.

Only because we have them now is because we take care of them with our dollars.

[Longinius 1]

"Don't they sell the oil for money ,but with money they can only buy food for ? It's the samething anyways."

The program allows Iraq to sell $2 billion worth of oil every six months. Under U.N. supervision, Iraq spends about $1.3 billion of that revenue on food and medicine. The rest funds U.N. disarmament inspectors and Gulf War reparations.

So, if the US forces take the fields and stop production they are in other words starving the Iraqi people, not preventing Iraq from getting funds to the military.

"This isn't about the US.It's about iraq and what they have signed,and what they have or don't have.It's easy to point the blame at US for any iraq problem because Us doesn't want to be push around by iraq.But the problem is Iraq.They shouldn't have it."

And how do you know they do? Because Bush told you? And what gives the US the right to disregard the UN anyway? If it had been a two bit medium sized nation they would be bombed by now...

"I wouldn't care if iraq had chemical weapons.But they seem to be careless with them.That why i care."

No, it doesnt have to do about being careless. Not at all. The debate is just about them MAYBE having it when they are not supposed to.

[Longinius 1]

"Only because we have them now is because we take care of them with our dollars."

Yeah, you are right. Your friends are bought, which means they really dont care about you, just the money. Great friends to have....

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Feb. 04 2003,15:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Only because we have them now is because we take care of them with our dollars."

Yeah, you are right. Your friends are bought, which means they really dont care about you, just the money. Great friends to have....<span id='postcolor'>

Who's worst though ? The guy that wants the money and just using you,Or the person giving it out just for some support/friendship.

[Longinius 1]

"Who's worst though ? The guy that wants the money and just using you,Or the person giving it out just for some support/friendship."

Both are equally bad in my opinion, I wouldnt want any of them as a friend.

[foxer 0]

So, if the US forces take the fields and stop production they are in other words starving the Iraqi people, not preventing Iraq from getting funds to the military.

I doubt that.They would try to get the people to like americans soo it makes it easier on them.If they did that it would be hella alot harder to take iraq.

And how do you know they do? Because Bush told you? And what gives the US the right to disregard the UN anyway? If it had been a two bit medium sized nation they would be bombed by now...

Only reason UN inspectors are in iraq right now is because of the US wants war.

No, it doesnt have to do about being careless. Not at all. The debate is just about them MAYBE having it when they are not supposed to.

Well then they have it.What makes you think iraq wouldn't have them ?

[Longinius 1]

"I doubt that.They would try to get the people to like americans soo it makes it easier on them.If they did that it would be hella alot harder to take iraq."

You doubt what? If America takes the oilfields they are NOT cutting of funding to the Iraqi army, since the money they get from selling oil goes to food. That is a fact.

And getting Iraqis to like Americans will probably be damn near impossible, seeing as how 100 000 of civilians have died because of UN and US sanctions.

"Well then they have it.What makes you think iraq wouldn't have them ? "

The fact that the inspectors havent found anything maybe?

[foxer 0]

You doubt what? If America takes the oilfields they are NOT cutting of funding to the Iraqi army, since the money they get from selling oil goes to food. That is a fact.

And getting Iraqis to like Americans will probably be damn near impossible, seeing as how 100 000 of civilians have died because of UN and US sanctions.

They would do samething they did in afghanistan.

The fact that the inspectors havent found anything maybe?

But they have found stuff.Anyone can paint expire dates on a bomb.Do you think they going let them find it?

[Longinius 1]

"They would do samething they did in afghanistan."

Which was what? Occupy it with force and bomb the shit out of everything? Great solution....

"But they have found stuff.Anyone can paint expire dates on a bomb.Do you think they going let them find it?"

What WMD "stuff" have they found?