The Iraq Thread

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Bush against Bush in discussion!

[ralphwiggum 6]

More attacks on US troops.

[Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0]

Sorry i could not resist, its a Vid on the realtionshp between Bush and Blair

Click Me

What was you doing at a site called "Gay bar"?

[FallenPaladin 0]

A swiss RED CROSS (you wont find anything more independant than that) has found that lots of the current aid and help stems from aid-organisations (e.g. Red Crescent) and ..surprise...surprise from surrounding countries such as Syria (SARC) and Iran (ICRC) (whoa!!! axis of evil.... the devil himself spends money to save starving children??? how is the US media gonna explain that?). Have a look around the Original Red Cross / Red Crescent Site and you will see that suddenly after the war all american "war heros" seem to have become invisible, at least as humanitarian work is concerned.

Damn that left-wing pacifist pussie propaganda!!

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]U.S. troops in northern Iraq recovered what they say they believe is a cache of gold bars -- the third time gold bars have been found in Iraq. These 1,130 bars were discovered inside a truck during a routine weapons search at a Kirkuk checkpoint, military officials said. They detained three men and sent the bars to Kuwait, where U.S. specialists will analyze them.

Gold bars are gold bars. Do you really have to take the gold to Kuwait to have them analyzed by US specialists or are they just transported to a country called USA ?

Quote[/b] ]Chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix briefed the U.N. Security Council on his latest report Thursday, compiled before the start of the war. Blix said his team did not find any evidence that Iraq had resumed its chemical or biological weapons programs after the first Gulf War. "The commission has not at any time during the inspections in Iraq found evidence of the continuation or resumption of programs of weapons of mass destruction or significant quantities of proscribed items, whether from pre-1991 or later," he said. But he also said Iraq was unable to account for chemical or biological weapons it claimed to have destroyed, and weapons inspectors were unable to clear up discrepancies before they left Baghdad in advance of the invasion.

What this article doesnt mention is that Blix suggested UN weapons inspectors to go to Iraq again, but the US dismissed that in no time. I REALLY WONDER WHY. The UN inspectors had good sucess with their work, the US didn´t. Why not sending in some real experts, who have experience in Iraq. Why not ? Or would this disturb the single sided US presentation of facts from Iraq, like it already did, when 2 UN weapon inspectors told the truth about the locations Powell mentioned in his fairy tail in front of the UN.

Quote[/b] ]"We're going to look," Bush said. "We'll reveal the truth, but one thing is certain -- no terrorist network will gain weapons of mass destruction from the Iraqi regime because the Iraqi regime is no more."

Yeah sure. No WMD´s, no terrorist links, what the hell is he telling us here.

[CosmicCastaway 0]

Read with a smile, and don't take it too seriously.....

I especially liked this bit:

Quote[/b] ]16th: Less than two weeks into the bombing campaign, the US admits its new range of smart weapons may be too intelligent. Sources say the $7m Supersophic missiles have a range of only 50 metres because less than a second after launch the onboard computer has worked out that violence only leads to more violence and that all war is futile. Realising there's no point any more, the weapon either deliberately crashes itself into a beautiful woman or flies back home to America to spend the rest of its days buzzing round a farm. The Pentagon orders that, from now on, missiles must be 'no more intelligent than a steelworker'.

[Schoeler 0]

The US authorities have already cancelled that plan.

It was in the news 2 days

I have to say that there is a big difference between "cancelled" and "modified", which is a more accurate portrayal of what happened to the plan. Unfortunately, the U.S. isn't omniscient and its true that we do lack experience in these matters as you have so aptly pointed out, so the odds were greatly in favor of the original plan going to hell and needing modification.

Quote[/b] ]Well the war wasnt a fast shot. It was planned some time ago. The only thing the Us left out were to set up plans for the time after the war. You dropped the Iraqis literally into a big black hole with the non-planned time after war.

You don´t have to be an expert in humanitarian aid to see that the coalition forces were and in parts are not prepared and trained to do that job.

See above.

Quote[/b] ]´s been a while since the water supplies have been cut off. Not by sabotage acts but by US bombs and coalition measures. You seem to have no problem in bombing things but you don´t have the knowledge and or willingness to rebuild very BASIC infrastructure elements. Oh well sure, as long as the Iraqis cant survive on their own they will be a gratefull population for a US colony. The real funny deal is that volunteers, workers from the installations are denied access to their former workplaces. They stand at the fences and wait for some miracles to happen but the coalition forces don´t seem to be very eager in their job (they have to do it you know it). Intentionally ? Lack of knowledge ? What is it?

Come on now, the damage to the Iraqi infrastructure had more to do with the sanctions imposed upon Iraq combined with Baath Party corruption and neglect than it did with American bombs. I'm not saying we didn't blow some things up, but the U.S. took extreme and unprecedented care in keeping the Iraqi infrastructure intact, if we hadn't, the war would have cost us a hell of a lot less as we could have simply used dumb bombs instead of expensive precision guided weapons. Saddam spent the money on the Iran-Iraq war, the Kuwait invasion, and his own palaces instead of the infrastructure. This fact has been acknowledged all over the world and by the Iraqi people.

Quote[/b] ]Yes but without the Iraqis votes. They will setup a clinical administration like they did in Afghanistan. This worked perfect didn´t it ?

You really should check the news as there are major directive changes when it comes to Iraq and democracy. Noone of the US officials mentiones the word democracy anymore.

Last I heard, most of the problems were in Fallujah which like

Tikrit was a hotbed of Saddam and Baath Party supporters, and guess what? The mayor of Fallujah was elected by the residents of Fallujah, not appointed by the U.S. authorities. Recently he worked alongside his American counterparts to restore water services to the town. A lot of the street protests died down after that, though the townspeople remain suspicious.

Quote[/b] ]I don´t talk about installed guys but determined Iraqi citizens who can take over administration jobs.

Basically he ruled out everyone with knowledge in Iraq because he said that no former member of the Bath party will be involved in that segments. Shall I tell you a secret ? Most of the administration-, science-, research-, educational- personel were for sure in the Baath party. Why ? You can easily answer that question on your own. So what he basically said was that the Iraqi people will not be allowed to run their own country unless a new, totally Baath party free generation is on the line. See what I mean ? It´s the gentle way to tell the Iraqi´s to piss off.

Even germany was allowed to put people into business again who worked for Hitler and the death of millions.

The installed guys are part of the interim government, not the permanent Iraqi government. Of course many of them are going to have to be installed at first until reliable people can be found to run for those offices. Also, already, many of these people in the interim government have been elected and not installed. True, most of the people who ran Iraq were Baath Party members (in order to remain alive) and some of them should figure prominently in the new government, but at this point, how does one seperate the good from the bad? Better to find replacements, restore order and then let the Iraqi people sort it out by determining for themselves who they can trust and who deserves to be punished. Its not telling the Iraqi people to piss off, its telling the Iraqi people that the U.S. doesn't trust the Baath Party and neither should they. I don't think the average Iraqi needs a whole lot of convincing to buy that argument. Additionally, while its true that the U.S. allowed some of the members of the Third Reich to return to office, they were mostly lower ranking members of the administration, and not the hardcore Nazi/SS/Gestapo types. Those men were tried and hanged for war crimes. The same principle holds true today as it did back then.

Quote[/b] ]The coaltion forces have to rebuild the infrastructure asap. It was an illegal war and now they have to take care of the peoiple they attacked for false reasons. It´s that easy.

Yes, you're right, the infrastructure should be rebuilt as fast as is humanly possible. With a few hitches in the plan due to violence in certain areas preventing the relief workers from entering them, and a few U.S. oversights or poor planning, this is being done. Let's not get into the whole legality issue of the war again, I've already shown that a war can be legal without your precious U.N. approval.

Quote[/b] ]So does this mean that if I don´t get shot during a protest (although I still remeber some deaths amongst protesters in Iraq, don´t you ? ) I should be happy as hell and shut up ?

No, it means the Iraqis should go right on exercising their newfound freedom of speech to get typical bureacrats off their asses and working to get things done faster and better. This is why I'll defend free speech and free press to the death. It gets lazy corrupt politicians working for the people like they should.

Quote[/b] ]What would you do if a nation from overseas invades your country , bombs it to bits and you don´t even have clear water for your kids and it turns out that the most hyped reasons for this war were nothing but lies ? What would you do if you are even not allowed to take care of the things you know because you worked there quite a while ? What would you think if you see that noone really cared about wells, electricity and such, but guards the oil ministry like the pentagon ?

Would you still feel "freed" ??

None of these allegations you are making have been proved yet. If in one year, the WMD still hasn't turned up, then I'll approach this issue differently, and I'm sure, so will the majority of the American people. We have the power of our votes behind us and Georgie had best justify the war to us before the 2004 elections if he doesn't want to be run out of town on a rail. He knows this, and the pressure is on to show the war was justified. For now, I'll just wait and see.

Quote[/b] ]People in iraq don´t feel that way. Or are they still transmitting pictures of gratefull Iraqi´s onto your TV ?

My TV shows a fast growing anger against the US troops in Iraq. My TV shows reinforcements that have to be transported into towns like Fallujah. the one you mentioned. They dont get them there to have some talks. They get them into Fallujah cause they are afraid of some major uprisings.

No, what I've seen is exactly what I expected to see. A few people happy to see the U.S. in and Saddam out, a few very unhappy to see this, and the majority of the Iraqi people somewhere in between, waiting to see what happens before they line up with one side or the other. The protests you see are often isolated to hotbed areas like Fallujah. Your average Iraqi just wants to go back to work, get paid, shop for food, care for his family, and have running water. electricity and healthcare restored. I doubt he gives a shit whether or not the Americans do this for him, or someone else does, so long as it gets done and done fast.

Quote[/b] ]Well you don´t know much about the way the people life in that region if you honestly think they will return their guns. They are part of their life, history and tradition. Go to Jemen and hop onto a plane and you will see that every man of a certain age carries his weapons with pride. They have knives and firearms and it´s totally ok for them to have them with them wherever they go. If the coaltion forces should try to disarm the Iraqi peole violently they will have a really funny time.

It´s like going to Texas and telling the guys to hand over their weapons. You know what they would do. Even in the US.

Actually, I do know something of how important guns are to the arab culture. However, while the Iraqis are allowed to retain pistols and non-automatic long arms for defensive purposes, the heavy weaponry, automatic weapons and explosive devices need to be confiscated in order to restore order and maintain peace, at least for the time being until things get settled. I wouldn't recommend the use of force in doing so, as I indicated earlier, but the Iraqis need to be better informed that the disarmament measures are in their own best interests. This is a very sticky issue and could get messy in the near future.

[Schoeler 0]

Quote[/b] ]U.S. troops in northern Iraq recovered what they say they believe is a cache of gold bars -- the third time gold bars have been found in Iraq. These 1,130 bars were discovered inside a truck during a routine weapons search at a Kirkuk checkpoint, military officials said. They detained three men and sent the bars to Kuwait, where U.S. specialists will analyze them.

Gold bars are gold bars. Do you really have to take the gold to Kuwait to have them analyzed by US specialists or are they just transported to a country called USA ?

Boy, you are just a font of leftwing propaganda today aren't you?

Anyone who knows anything about geology, metallurgy or chemistry could tell you that an analysis of the gold can tell the analyst where it came from, who minted it and thus, who it belongs to.  Might it possibly be the missing Kuwaiti gold?  Who knows, but at least someone should try and make that determination.

Do you really believe the U.S. is out to steal Iraq's gold?  Don't you think the rest of the world might notice something like that?

[MLF 0]

Sorry i could not resist, its a Vid on the realtionshp between Bush and Blair

Click Me

What was you doing at a site called "Gay bar"?  

i was sent the link, also do i see a bit Homophobia

[Major Fubar 0]

Has anyone seen the actual clip to this song? It's just as funny as this version...brings back memories of Life at the Outpost...

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Do you really believe the U.S. is out to steal Iraq's gold?

Yes. They will of course not call it stealing but , saving funds for rebuilding Iraq.

Don´t you see the problem that every non-governmental institution is excluded from the developements in Iraq ? (except Halliburton and other wise chosen companies)

There is no independant control authority in Iraq and as long as the US refuse to let humanitarian organizations do their job in Iraq and let UN personel in to have an eye even on the US troops, there will always be a bad taste left when we talk about Iraq´s money and oil.

It would be very easy for the TBA to get rid of these accusations. They only needed to cooperate with trustworthy organizations. They dont do that. Why ?

Quote[/b] ]Unfortunately, the U.S. isn't omniscient and its true that we do lack experience in these matters as you have so aptly pointed out, so the odds were greatly in favor of the original plan going to hell and needing modification.

Another person with another perspective could say that it was never the intention to run the job like it was proposed. If you check what efforts have been made by the TBA to setup a plan for the postwar time, you will find out that there have been no real plans for that time. The TBA planned the military operations with large efforts, but completely left out the post-war plans. What does this indicate?

Quote[/b] ]Come on now, the damage to the Iraqi infrastructure had more to do with the sanctions imposed upon Iraq combined with Baath Party corruption and neglect than it did with American bombs.

I am talking about the sites damaged by airstrikes and shelling. If you check out the power plants in Bagdad for example you will understand what I am talking about. They are off limits for Iraqi workers and they are off limits for humanitarian organizations who have offered to help bringing them back online again. They are just locked. Noone of the coaltion troops is there to repair them, but to guard them.

Quote[/b] ]f we hadn't, the war would have cost us a hell of a lot less as we could have simply used dumb bombs instead of expensive precision guided weapons

You know who sponsored Bush´s campaign ? You think the TBA used that new weapons only for the benefit of Iraq ? Come on, we all know that the companies that invested a lot of money into Bush´s campaign want to see something coming back for their money. Military budget anyone ?

Quote[/b] ]The mayor of Fallujah was elected by the residents of Fallujah, not appointed by the U.S. authorities.

Who put the names on the list ?

Quote[/b] ]Also, already, many of these people in the interim government have been elected and not installed

source please

Quote[/b] ]they were mostly lower ranking members of the administration, and not the hardcore Nazi/SS/Gestapo types.

Definately wrong. Check the Bundeswehr history and you will see it on your own. For sure most of the military research programs were halted and cancelled after the war. Most of our scientists were taken to the US and helped to american military in weapon research. There are a lot of dirty stories to tell about that. Hardcore nazis weren´t even prosecuted for their research on human beings, but allowed to continue their work in the US with prisoners etc.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, you're right, the infrastructure should be rebuilt as fast as is humanly possible. With a few hitches in the plan due to violence in certain areas preventing the relief workers from entering them, and a few U.S. oversights or poor planning, this is being done.

Compared to the ability of the TBA to send hundreds of thousand troops to the region in no time, it is ridiculouse what has been done untill now to reestablish basic life support systems in Iraq.

Quote[/b] ]None of these allegations you are making have been proved yet. If in one year, the WMD still hasn't turned up, then I'll approach this issue differently, and I'm sure, so will the majority of the American people.

I doubt that. In my opinion the whole issue will be more or less forgotten by the US people. Another axis of evil country will be in focus of interest then. And by all means the TBA is the last institution I would trust when it comes to prove for WMD´s. If they want to rise the belief in their politics and work they have to work transparent and take those into the boat who are known to be independant. Why don´t they do that ? There is no logical answer for that. So why don´t they do it ?

Quote[/b] ]automatic weapons .... need to be confiscated in order to restore order and maintain peace

But you know that the average Iraqi man has an AK and will most likely not give it away if the coaltion troops are not able to secure their lifes , homes and families ? Most of the Iraqi´s don´t trust the coaltion forces for good reasons. The only way they will be giving away their weapons will be a violent one. That´s obviouse.

Quote[/b] ]Boy, you are just a font of leftwing propaganda today aren't you?

That´s funny. Most of the friends I have entitle me a conservative guy with fixed definitions of justice and law.

In the US I would be a left-winger communist bastard for the same principles. That only shows me that the definition of right and left is different in Europe and the US.

Same goes for the definition of "evil", good and bad these days.

[-TU--33ker 0]

$33ker @ June 04 2003,17:58)]I read February on that helmet.

No, Febuary

-Post

ooops...

doesn't matter anyway!

[Longinius 1]

"Do you really believe the U.S. is out to steal Iraq's gold? Don't you think the rest of the world might notice something like that?"

Actually, I dont think they would notice. Just like the millions of dollars that were found. I dont think many people care what happened to it. I am pretty sure its still in American hands though.

[FallenPaladin 0]

The situation in Iraq stinks.

[Schoeler 0]

Quote[/b] ]Do you really believe the U.S. is out to steal Iraq's gold?

Yes. They will of course not call it stealing but , saving funds for rebuilding Iraq.

Don´t you see the problem that every non-governmental institution is excluded from the developements in Iraq ? (except Halliburton and other wise chosen companies)

There is no independant control authority in Iraq and as long as the US refuse to let humanitarian organizations do their job in Iraq and let UN personel in to have an eye even on the US troops, there will always be a bad taste left when we talk about Iraq´s money and oil.

It would be very easy for the TBA to get rid of these accusations. They only needed to cooperate with trustworthy organizations. They dont do that. Why ?

If the value of the gold goes back to the Iraqi economy and the Iraqi people, how exactly is this stealing?

NGO's are playing a role in rebuilding Iraq, but only in the areas where their safety is assured, so far, most of them have refused to work in hostile areas like Fallujah.

Quote[/b] ]Another person with another perspective could say that it was never the intention to run the job like it was proposed. If you check what efforts have been made by the TBA to setup a plan for the postwar time, you will find out that there have been no real plans for that time. The TBA planned the military operations with large efforts, but completely left out the post-war plans. What does this indicate?

I'd call that a paranoid viewpoint, but hey, that's just me.

Quote[/b] ]I am talking about the sites damaged by airstrikes and shelling. If you check out the power plants in Bagdad for example you will understand what I am talking about. They are off limits for Iraqi workers and they are off limits for humanitarian organizations who have offered to help bringing them back online again. They are just locked. Noone of the coaltion troops is there to repair them, but to guard them.

I think the damage to the infrastructure caused by airstrikes and shelling is at best minimal in comparison to the damage done by years of neglect from Baath Party indifference. Also, I wouldn't expect any of the coalition troops to be repairing power plants and water systems. Their talents are better suited for killing people quickly and efficiently. Repair work will have to be done by Iraqi or outside experts who can only begin once things have settled down some. It takes a while for large bureaucracies to get projects like this rolling.

Quote[/b] ]You know who sponsored Bush´s campaign ? You think the TBA used that new weapons only for the benefit of Iraq ? Come on, we all know that the companies that invested a lot of money into Bush´s campaign want to see something coming back for their money. Military budget anyone ?

Employing Ockham's razor to both our theories, would favor mine just a bit more than yours. I mean, whats the simplest explanation: 1) Smart weapons were used to avoid unnecessary damage (the reason they were invented in the first place.) or 2) Smart weapons were used in a covert program to increase military spending as a reward for campaign donations to one man from members of a shadowy group of figures in the military industrial complex. I'm sticking to number 1, call me an intractable stickler for logical explanations if you must.

Quote[/b] ]Who put the names on the list ?

Hey, I don't get to select who puts the names on the list for the political candidates in my country, the parties do that for me. I doubt you get to either. The fact of the matter is, the Iraqi citizens of Fallujah elected him from a pool of candidates, and so far they seem satisfied with him representing them.

Quote[/b] ]Definately wrong. Check the Bundeswehr history and you will see it on your own. For sure most of the military research programs were halted and cancelled after the war. Most of our scientists were taken to the US and helped to american military in weapon research. There are a lot of dirty stories to tell about that. Hardcore nazis weren´t even prosecuted for their research on human beings, but allowed to continue their work in the US with prisoners etc.

All the accounts of Nazi Germany and post-war history that I have read suggest that Werner Von Braun and his crew of scientists were not hardcore members of the National Socialist Party, but joined out of necessity. I hardly believe they were responsible for the death camps, or the Nacht Und Nebel programs of the Gestapo. Dr. Josef Mengele and his crew were hunted down and executed for their crimes.

Quote[/b] ]Compared to the ability of the TBA to send hundreds of thousand troops to the region in no time, it is ridiculouse what has been done untill now to reestablish basic life support systems in Iraq.

I'll give you that, the planning wasn't spectacular for post-war Iraq. More could and should have been done. Personally, I think Rumsfeld is a complete asshole. He nearly fucked up the war strategy and he certainly fucked up the post-war strategy. I only hope that Bush fires him, and while he's at it, John Ashcroft too.

Quote[/b] ]I doubt that. In my opinion the whole issue will be more or less forgotten by the US people. Another axis of evil country will be in focus of interest then. And by all means the TBA is the last institution I would trust when it comes to prove for WMD´s. If they want to rise the belief in their politics and work they have to work transparent and take those into the boat who are known to be independant. Why don´t they do that ? There is no logical answer for that. So why don´t they do it ?

I doubt that, the issue is actually gaining more and more attention every day. Bush is under enormous pressure to show that the war was justified for ther reasons he gave the American people. Just today, military intelligence agencies inside the Pentagon distanced themselves from the agencies that supplied TBA the intel used to justify the war. This is the first step in political and miltary organizations saying that Bush lied to the American people, as the Pentagon is saying that there was no evidence that Saddam had WMD stockpiles immediately before the war began. A lot of people are starting to cover their asses for the inevitable heavy political fallout if TBA doesn't deliver the promised evidence.

Quote[/b] ]But you know that the average Iraqi man has an AK and will most likely not give it away if the coaltion troops are not able to secure their lifes , homes and families ? Most of the Iraqi´s don´t trust the coaltion forces for good reasons. The only way they will be giving away their weapons will be a violent one. That´s obviouse.

I completely agree, which is why I've said all along that this is a particularly sticky issue and could lead to soem nasty episodes in the near future. I still think it needs to be done however. I don't want American kids and members of humanitarian organizations, or even innocent Iraqi bystanders dying because some radical was allowed access to a dangerous weapon.

Quote[/b] ]That´s funny. Most of the friends I have entitle me a conservative guy with fixed definitions of justice and law.

In the US I would be a left-winger communist bastard for the same principles. That only shows me that the definition of right and left is different in Europe and the US.

Same goes for the definition of "evil", good and bad these days.

You would definitely be labeled leftwing here in the U.S. Compared to most Americans I'd be considered a moderate. I don't think the definition of evil is open to debate, but is fixed universally. I'll adhere to Kantian philosophy on that matter, no matter how antiquated it may seem.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Damn it. 3 german soldiers killed and 10 wounded this morning in a suicide attack in Kabul/Afghanistan!

[FallenPaladin 0]

A car full of explosives drove into one of two busses which were driving out of Kabul. The soldiers in the busses were allowed home for a few days. 3 soldiers were killed instantly, 10 more were wounded badliest so there will be more casulties for sure, in addition to that and the lighter wounded 20 civilians were wounded.

That should be proof enough that Afghanistan is far from peace. My thoughts are with the survivors and the families of the dead. I subscribed two days ago for 12 years and even while I don`t know my future unit yet exactly I`m now even more motivated to do my best to make the world a little bit safer. Even if that`ll cost my life. I only hope that we can bring peace faster to the certain areas as the USA starts wars in other places.

Comrades, I won`t forget you.

[FallenPaladin 0]

At 3:15pm german time there`ll be a press conference with more information.

[NurEinMensch 0]

[FallenPaladin 0]

I`ve just seen the press conference. 4 soldiers dead, 10 wounded and in critical condition, between 20-30 including civilians wounded. The suicide bomber drove a taxi. There are presumptions that Al Quaida is involved in this bombing. Investigations are still on route and will take some time.

[Schoeler 0]

I only hope that we can bring peace faster to the certain areas as the USA starts wars in other places.

Comrades, I won`t forget you.

If the USA hadn't started the war in Afghanistan with your government's support, that attack might have occurred in your hometown. Do you really think Al-Qaeda would have and will ignore your country?

[mrukas 0]

"Do you really believe the U.S. is out to steal Iraq's gold?  Don't you think the rest of the world might notice something like that?"

Actually, I dont think they would notice. Just like the millions of dollars that were found. I dont think many people care what happened to it. I am pretty sure its still in American hands though.

i believe there not stealing it, but borrowing it... untill an unknown time

[NurEinMensch 0]

If the USA hadn't started the war in Afghanistan with your government's support, that attack might have occurred in your hometown.  Do you really think Al-Qaeda would have and will ignore your country?

Schoeler you've done better in the past. Point about the german governtment supporting the war in Afghanistan is true, but be honest, is there really any chance that attack would have happened in central Europe if the US hadn't attacked Afghanistan?

Your post just doesnt make much sense to me.

[mrukas 0]

If the USA hadn't started the war in Afghanistan with your government's support, that attack might have occurred in your hometown.  Do you really think Al-Qaeda would have and will ignore your country?

Schoeler you've done better in the past. Point about the german governtment supporting the war in Afghanistan is true, but be honest, is there really any chance that attack would have happened in central Europe if the US hadn't attacked Afghanistan?

Your post just doesnt make much sense to me.

i was gonna say it too, but i waited for someone elso to bring the news to him... leads to many points using roots many of them being pointless.

[FallenPaladin 0]

I only hope that we can bring peace faster to the certain areas as the USA starts wars in other places.

Comrades, I won`t forget you.

If the USA hadn't started the war in Afghanistan with your government's support, that attack might have occurred in your hometown.  Do you really think Al-Qaeda would have and will ignore your country?

I have no problem with the defeat of the Taliban in Afghanistan and the hunt for Osama bin Laden, even if the USA failed miserably so far. My concerns are only pointed towards the current attitude of the Bush Administration to happily begin preemtive wars, one after another.