The Iraq Thread

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ April 15 2003,04:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Besides, I have not read any credible reports on iraqi abuses of civilians in war<span id='postcolor'>

Fedayeen were killing civilians who welcomed the troops.

[Blaegis 0]

Quote from the PitViper's NYPost article:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, even the most benign and directed looting can quickly turn ugly - and some of it is indeed quite awful (obviously, the looting of the National Museum and Library is a tragedy). Still, you can surely forgive the people of Baghdad for taking advantage of the disappearance of a brutal and oppressive state to (in the words of Col. Willie Williams) "take back some of what had been stolen from them." <span id='postcolor'>

^ This is great, I wish I could come up with this: "Benign looting" and "taking back some of what had been stolen from them (from the National Museum)". I suppose trashing all the foreign embassies (especially French, German and Russian ones) also comes under the category of "benign looting"... PitViper, if I were you I'd try to diversify my news sources

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blaegis @ April 15 2003,09:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">PitViper, if I were you I'd try to diversify my news sources<span id='postcolor'>

Why don't you?

[Blaegis 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 15 2003,16:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blaegis @ April 15 2003,09:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">PitViper, if I were you I'd try to diversify my news sources<span id='postcolor'>

Why don't you?  <span id='postcolor'>

Mine are diverse. But they don't include tabloids...

[PitViper 0]

4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blaegis @ April 15 2003,104)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But they don't include tabloids...<span id='postcolor'>

I'm sure the editor of the Post would be surprised to hear that it's a tabloid.

BTW, the French embassy wasn't looted. A "cultural center" was.

[Longinius 1]

"Still, you can surely forgive the people of Baghdad for taking advantage of the disappearance of a brutal and oppressive state to (in the words of Col. Willie Williams) "take back some of what had been stolen from them.""

No you can't really. Because the people who are actually looting are probably not the only ones who have had their property stolen. Many times private businesses and homes have been looted.

If we forgive some looting then we are slowly accepting more and more lawlesness and chaos. You might want to live in a society that allows looting. But I sure dont.

[Blaegis 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 15 2003,16:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blaegis @ April 15 2003,10<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But they don't include tabloids...<span id='postcolor'>

I'm sure the editor of the Post would be surprised to hear that it's a tabloid.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't know, I find that any newspaper that has a major section dedicated to gossip is unlikely to provide accurate or objective information on anything. The article that you posted did nothing to change my opinion.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW, the French embassy wasn't looted.  A "cultural center" was.<span id='postcolor'>

You're right.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blaegis @ April 15 2003,17:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know, I find that any newspaper that has a major section dedicated to gossip is unlikely to provide accurate or objective information on anything.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree. But, in addition to this covering such publications, I also would include political forum threads.

[Blaegis 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 15 2003,16:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blaegis @ April 15 2003,17:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't know, I find that any newspaper that has a major section dedicated to gossip is unlikely to provide accurate or objective information on anything.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree. But, in addition to this covering such publications, I also would include political forum threads.<span id='postcolor'>

     Good one! I suppose we can always TRY to be objective and accurate in here...

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blaegis @ April 15 2003,10:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW, the French embassy wasn't looted.  A "cultural center" was.<span id='postcolor'>

You're right.<span id='postcolor'>

looks like post has more respect for accuracy than you.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 15 2003,15:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Looting and Lying

surprise surprise.  media reports of looting are largely out of proportion. Here's a more accurate assessment.<span id='postcolor'>

Accurate? As in this:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And if their de facto support for the old regime weren't clear enough, some of these people are calling for the reinstatement of Saddam's bestial police forces.

Any such partial return of the old regime would be a grotesque betrayal of everything we have fought for. Fortunately, the U.S. Army has at this point no intention of doing anything of the sort.

<span id='postcolor'>

Basra fury over return of 'killer' police force

Baghdad police back on streets

Note that his article is dated today, so it is a case of ignorance.

[Guest]

Resentment on streets of Baghdad -BBC

Iraq's post-war future under scrutiny -BBC

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

NASIRIYA MEETING

Iraqi National Congress

Pachachi group

Iraqi National Accord

Monarchists

al-Dawah Party

PUK Kurdish Party

KDP Kurdish Party

Iraqi tribal and religious leaders

US envoy Zalman Khalilzad

US ex-general Jay Garner

UN (observer status) <span id='postcolor'>

Oooops. No Shi'as. They make up over 60% of Iraq's population.

[Blaegis 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ April 15 2003,16:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blaegis @ April 15 2003,10:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW, the French embassy wasn't looted.  A "cultural center" was.<span id='postcolor'>

You're right.<span id='postcolor'>

looks like post has more respect for accuracy than you.<span id='postcolor'>

You just can't let go, can you? Yes, I made a mistake in referring to the French Cultural Center as the French Embassy. However, it had no bearing whatsoever to what I was trying to say in my original post. The NYPost article, on the other hand, was full of proposterous drivel which was downright ludicrous to read considering the fact that it attempted to be an objective news report about the situation in Baghdad. Reporting of such class is typically encountered in "yellow press", which is why I called NYPost a tabloid. Closer examination of their webpage just confirmed that initial assessment.

[WhoCares 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 15 2003,17:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oooops. No Shi'as. They make up over 60% of Iraq's population.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't know whether it is mentioned in those articles (to busy to read them right now), but this morning I heard in the radio, that the Shiites refuse to join any post-Saddam discussions with american participation...

[bn880 5]

And the Shi'as were also protesting in the streets outside the meeting...

[WhoCares 0]

I guess the next meetings will be in Kirkuk, Mossul an *cough* Tikrit *cough*

[Guest]

U.S. shuts off Iraq-Syria oil pipeline

I think this speaks for itself.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 15 2003,21:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">U.S. shuts off Iraq-Syria oil pipeline

I think this speaks for itself.<span id='postcolor'>

I've heard things through the grapevine but never through the pipeline - unless you tap on it in morse code, I suppose.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Abu Abbas, Palestinian terrorist convicted of 1985 cruise ship hijacking and murder, captured by U.S. troops in Iraq, U.S. sources say. Details to come.<span id='postcolor'>

I assume this is the Achille Lauro.

[Blaegis 0]

"Realpolitik raises its ugly head, or why I hate all politicians" article

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blaegis @ April 16 2003,02:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Realpolitik raises its ugly head, or why I hate all politicians" article<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">France says it wants to be pragmatic, Germany says it is an honest broker because it has no economic interests in Iraq, and Russia says it will consider Washington's call to forgive some $8 billion in Soviet era debt.

<span id='postcolor'>

France wants to be pragmatic? Hell, France doesn't want TotalFinaElf's contracts to be voided, but they simultaneously wanted to play geopolitical chicken with America. And just like everyone else, France can't have it both ways.

It's true Germany doesn't have any interests in Iraq, yet. Of course, this would be the first step towards changing that.

And Russia is talking about forgiving 8 billion dollars in debt? Hell, if Russia was honest, they'd give Iraq a full refund. Why? Because those debts were incurred in military equipment deals, and we've all seen how well that equipment has served Iraq lol.

So, it seems your courageous politicians have sold you down the river. It would behoove you to remember that all politicians are lying bastards; I guess ours are just better at it then yours

[Blaegis 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And Russia is talking about forgiving 8 billion dollars in debt? Hell, if Russia was honest, they'd give Iraq a full refund. Why? Because those debts were incurred in military equipment deals, and we've all seen how well that equipment has served Iraq lol.<span id='postcolor'>

That's not exactly fair, Tex. We are talking about 25 year-old "monkey model" equipment fielded by an army that has neither the will nor the skills to fight with it... The point is that Russia realizes that they won't get that USD 8bn out of Iraq anyway, so they might as well forget about it ang get some goodwill out of US. (BTW,  before someone brings up those Kornets again, I'm still waiting for physical evidence they've actually been used.)

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So, it seems your courageous politicians have sold you down the river. It would behoove you to remember that all politicians are lying bastards; I guess ours are just better at it then yours  <span id='postcolor'>

Nah, you just have a big-ass army, so your politicians can make good their exuberant foreign-policy promises. I've never had any illusions about politicians, that's why I posted the article in the first place. I'm just surprised they went into their whoring mode so fast.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Blaegis @ April 16 2003,02:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Realpolitik raises its ugly head, or why I hate all politicians" article<span id='postcolor'>

Wow. Amazing. My respect for media has dropped even more. I didn't think that was possible.

France, Germany and Russia had a meeting on Monday. The conclusions, agreed by all was this:

[*] No UN = no lifting of sanctions

[*] USA pays the entire bill or no lifting of sanctions

[*] Any UN proposal that will try to legetimize the war will be vetoed.

This sounds a bit different then from the story you posted, doesn't it? De Villepin was in Stockholm yesterday to discuss Iraq and the result was a joint statement confirming the points above.

What a sad media spin!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Russia says it will consider Washington's call to forgive some $8 billion in Soviet era debt.

<span id='postcolor'>

They forgot to mention that Ivanov added that this is a matter that will be discussed with a chosen Iraqi governement and not with the USA.

As for Schroeder and Germany, It's possible. Germany does not have the balls to resist. It was already evident with the NATO-Turkey deal where they surrendered as soon as France stepped out of the game.

We'll see, but right now we have two SC permanent members intent on stopping USA from making any profit from Iraq.

[OxPecker 0]

A quick Google of Mr Erik Kirschbaum seems to reveal a decidedly anti-German flavour to many of his articles - personal prejudices perhaps?

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 16 2003,08:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[*] No UN = no lifting of sanctions

[*] USA pays the entire bill or no lifting of sanctions<span id='postcolor'>

I assume these are sanctions on Iraq?

So how does continueing sanctions agaisnt the civilians that we all have railed against, get back at the US? Now they are using the Iraqi civilians as some kind of political bargaining chip? That is just sad...I see their sympathy for Iraq goes only so far...

Unless of course these are different sanctions then you can forget all the above