The Iraq Thread

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Jan. 29 2003,14:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Cheney and Rumsfeld ?:

<span id='postcolor'>

Naw! That's bn880 and SpaceAlex.

[llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Jan. 29 2003,13:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I stayed up late to watch the Bush speech and what can I say ?

It was completely waste of time. Again only speculations were made, he talked about his intel sources that have evidence, but did not present any. He flamed fears and said that US is the best, greatest, most free, bla bla bla...

Anyway I assumed the speach to be that way, so I am not surprised that he tries to sell big red elephants.

What I really liked was the thing he linked the administration with god directly. The US administration seems to be the first representative of god on this planet if you listen to Bush.

Maybe he is the Messiah ?<span id='postcolor'>

It's all propaganda without a real substance to get the citizens support again. But people buys it, and not only americans.

If the prime minister of sweden would have talked about the blessed people of sweden bla bla bla the swedes would have taken him for an idiot.

But it works in USA to get up the patriotism.

USA puts them selves above all other nations.

A nation with God on their side who's duty is to liberate the world from what they believe is evil.

I have not heard this much bullshit south of Svalbard since I was born.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Llauma @ Jan. 29 2003,14:12)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Jan. 29 2003,13:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I stayed up late to watch the Bush speech and what can I say ?

It was completely waste of time. Again only speculations were made, he talked about his intel sources that have evidence, but did not present any. He flamed fears and said that US is the best, greatest, most free, bla bla bla...

Anyway I assumed the speach to be that way, so I am not surprised that he tries to sell big red elephants.

What I really liked was the thing he linked the administration with god directly. The US administration seems to be the first representative of god on this planet if you listen to Bush.

Maybe he is the Messiah ?<span id='postcolor'>

It's all propaganda without a real substance to get the citizens support again. But people buys it, and not only americans.

If the prime minister of sweden would have talked about the blessed people of sweden bla bla bla the swedes would have taken him for an idiot.

But it works in USA to get up the patriotism.

USA puts them selves above all other nations.

A nation with God on their side who's duty is to liberate the world from what they believe is evil.

I have not heard this much bullshit south of Svalbard since I was born.<span id='postcolor'>

I'm sorry to say I disagree with both you! Ok, I do understand your point that the administration claims to have God on their side and that this kind of rethorics is used as manipulation of the masses - or whatever. However, rethorics aside, who are we do decide if their actions are legitimazed by God or not?

It kind of reminds me of the 50'ies anthropological discussion on witchcraft as "real or not". To simply reduce a faith or a system of belief as something purely functional makes you violate reasons of understanding other people. It's just as sad as when someone (quite a few in this off topic forum) write off rulers or groups of people in the middle east as mad lunatics only inspired by something illogical and dangorous on their way to destroy everything free and western, because of a said clash of values. This kind of judging on other peoples cultural traits are to say the least oversimplified and wrong. Religion is not a computer programe making people do this or that - not in the middle eastern societies or US for that matter. Sure, primordial claims are used in politics and nationalistic claims about ethnicity and cultural stereotypes - but it's just as wrong to write of someone elses belief systems as false - or even ridiculous. Is there witchcraft, God, Messiah or whatever exept from in a primordial sense or as a social organizing of collective sympathies? I don't know - but I do know better than to ridicule other people and write it off as pure propaganda. As it is now, most US citizens happen to believe in God - and that is allright with me.

[Guest]

While one indeed should respect people's faith, that goes both ways. If somebody tells me that they believe in God, that's fine with me. If somebody on the other hand starts saying that God has ordered him to kill people, then I would tend to be a bit worried. You might be chosen by God in your reference system, but that doesn't mean that you are in another man's reference system.

Osama bin Laden thinks he is doing God's work too. Do you really think that killing other people in the name of your faith qualifies as freedom of religion?

[Guest]

LOL

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Jan. 29 2003,14:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Osama bin Laden thinks he is doing God's work too. Do you really think that killing other people in the name of your faith qualifies as freedom of religion?<span id='postcolor'>

Of course not! That is not what I'm saying! People do use religion for political purposes - even for propaganda purposes. But I guess the reason why so often Allah is called upon in the middle east is of another reason than "being ordered by God to kill". Religion do not kill - people do! Osama can claim whatever he likes about Gods will or intentions, but I doubt his interpretation of God is the only rightfull one. My point is rather that in the middle eastern case, so many people with "western cultural luggage" seem to believe Islam is something akin to a programme. Not so, Islam is of course a system of belief, but it's also a way of organizing people whom tend to live under many of the same conditions, yet different in other respects. The middle east is burdened with poverty, dominated by western politics for ages and without much hope for a better future. Religion is of course a way of organizing people whom are very different in spoken languages, geografical situation, social organizing like clan systems etc. There are lunatics taking advantage of such situation like Bin Laden in the middle east, racial ideologics in the west, anti abortion campaigners etc.

My guess is that politicians in Turkey - as well as politicians in Capitol hill, all uses a language of inclusion - even if it's about religion. It may also be the case that religion is a part of the written constitution. Should we just ridicule such aspects - or should we try to understand it's significanse?

However, your question is an important one! All in all it's imposible to escape the "moral" point of view. The problem of cultural relativism is that you can never escape preconditioned understanding. I believe the critics of cultural relativism is partly right: as long as something is understood as culturaly significant - does that mean we should legitimate of Nazi Germany's treatment of the jews?

Of course not!

But I do believe in something in the middle if one are to understand cultural significanse.

[llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Jan. 29 2003,14:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm sorry to say I disagree with both you! Ok, I do understand your point that the administration claims to have God on their side and that this kind of rethorics is used as manipulation of the masses - or whatever. However, rethorics aside, who are we do decide if their actions are legitimazed by God or not?

It kind of reminds me of the 50'ies anthropological discussion on witchcraft as "real or not". To simply reduce a faith or a system of belief as something purely functional makes you violate reasons of understanding other people. It's just as sad as when someone (quite a few in this off topic forum) write off rulers or groups of people in the middle east as mad lunatics only inspired by something illogical and dangorous on their way to destroy everything free and western, because of a said clash of values. This kind of judging on other peoples cultural traits are to say the least oversimplified and wrong. Religion is not a computer programe making people do this or that - not in the middle eastern societies or US for that matter. Sure, primordial claims are used in politics and nationalistic claims about ethnicity and cultural stereotypes - but it's just as wrong to write of someone elses belief systems as false - or even ridiculous. Is there witchcraft, God, Messiah or whatever exept from in a primordial sense or as a social organizing of collective sympathies? I don't know - but I do know better than to ridicule other people and write it off as pure propaganda. As it is now, most US citizens happen to believe in God - and that is allright with me.<span id='postcolor'>

I have nothing against religions but if you violate human rights and kill people,

justified by the holy books and your own believes of what's right and wrong then I think it has gone too far.

Bush also said that communism is one of the evil things USA has fought. So they consider communist countries to be evil?

Does this mean that USA will eliminate all communist now when they are going to eliminate evil?

Religious and ideological fanatism are sad things.. I fear millions will still die by them.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Llauma @ Jan. 29 2003,16:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Jan. 29 2003,14:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm sorry to say I disagree with both you! Ok, I do understand your point that the administration claims to have God on their side and that this kind of rethorics is used as manipulation of the masses - or whatever. However, rethorics aside, who are we do decide if their actions are legitimazed by God or not?

It kind of reminds me of the 50'ies anthropological discussion on witchcraft as "real or not". To simply reduce a faith or a system of belief as something purely functional makes you violate reasons of understanding other people. It's just as sad as when someone (quite a few in this off topic forum) write off rulers or groups of people in the middle east as mad lunatics only inspired by something illogical and dangorous on their way to destroy everything free and western, because of a said clash of values. This kind of judging on other peoples cultural traits are to say the least oversimplified and wrong. Religion is not a computer programe making people do this or that - not in the middle eastern societies or US for that matter. Sure, primordial claims are used in politics and nationalistic claims about ethnicity and cultural stereotypes - but it's just as wrong to write of someone elses belief systems as false - or even ridiculous. Is there witchcraft, God, Messiah or whatever exept from in a primordial sense or as a social organizing of collective sympathies? I don't know - but I do know better than to ridicule other people and write it off as pure propaganda. As it is now, most US citizens happen to believe in God - and that is allright with me.<span id='postcolor'>

I have nothing against religions but if you violate human rights and kill people,

justified by the holy books and your own believes of what's right and wrong then I think it has gone too far.

Bush also said that communism is one of the evil things USA has fought. So they consider communist countries to be evil?

Does this mean that USA will eliminate all communist now when they are going to eliminate evil?

Religious and ideological fanatism are sad things.. I fear millions will still die by them.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree with you! It's typical of some people (US politicians) to miss nuances and only see things as ultimate alternatives: Either you are with us - or against us. These binary oppositions are well known to us: Capitalism - communism.

Funny thing is that Bush Sr. told the world that "we won" (over communism) when the wall was broken down. I wonder what the billions of poor people in the world thinks of the succes of capitalism. I wonder what the people of middle east thinks of this victory - especially when it is going to kill even more people in Iraq pretty soon. I bet they all think they lost to capitalism. No wonder the monster Osama could manouvre.

[Balschoiw 0]

I also found the comments about Iran very interresting. Are they next on the list ?

And brgnorway, don´t get me wrong. I am catholic and more or less strong in believe, but using it along with a debating for war on terror, muslim, people is not ok. I have seen the speech and ha acted like the messenger of god. This abuses believe for political games. I have a strong opposition to mix believe and politics. It was never good and made a lot of people suffer. To use this now to mobilize american people to support a war is very dubiouse. I call it abuse. The pope has already said what he thinks od a war. Last night I got the impression Mr Bush knows more of god´s opinion on this than we all do. He declared the US as THE state with a direct line to god.

[FSPilot 0]

I don't think he was using it as a reason for this war. Just as assuredness that God's not going to smite us for it or anything. That God's on our side, not theirs.

[llauma 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 29 2003,20:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't think he was using it as a reason for this war.  Just as assuredness that God's not going to smite us for it or anything.  That God's on our side, not theirs.<span id='postcolor'>

This is religious fanatism and that scares me.

USA is starting to resemble those it calls its enemies more and more every day.

Countries that don't have any limits on what they could do to achive what they believe in.

[DarkLight 0]

0--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 28 2003,210)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't think he was using it as a reason for this war.  Just as assuredness that God's not going to smite us for it or anything.  That God's on our side, not theirs.<span id='postcolor'>

Sounds a lot like what all the US enemies think.  God's with us, not with the evil West...

Total bullshit if you ask me

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just as assuredness that God's not going to smite us for it or anything.  That God's on our side, not theirs.<span id='postcolor'>

God is universal. God is everywhere and has no "made in the USA" label on his T-shirt.

The representative of god on earth is the pope and the pope already said "No" to the US plans. So how can god be with you ?

This is so stupid I can´t believe...

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Jan. 29 2003,21:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The representative of god on earth is the pope and the pope already said "No" to the US plans.<span id='postcolor'>

LMAO What happened to the "God is universal"?

I don't think we should get into religious absolutism or the Allmighty Denoir will kick thy heathen ass

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Jan. 29 2003,21:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just as assuredness that God's not going to smite us for it or anything.  That God's on our side, not theirs.<span id='postcolor'>

God is universal. God is everywhere and has no "made in the USA" label on his T-shirt.

The representative of god on earth is the pope and the pope already said "No" to the US plans. So how can god be with you ?

This is so stupid I can´t believe...<span id='postcolor'>

No, but god does have an "don't mess with texas "shirt.ONly in bush eyes though.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is religious fanatism and that scares me.

USA is starting to resemble those it calls its enemies more and more every day.

Countries that don't have any limits on what they could do to achive what they believe in.<span id='postcolor'>

That's not religious fanaticism at all. Having faith that what you're doing is condoned by God is religious fanaticism?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sounds a lot like what all the US enemies think. God's with us, not with the evil West...

Total bullshit if you ask me<span id='postcolor'>

Is bs to believe what you're doing is condoned by God? Not at all, it's faith.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">God is universal. God is everywhere and has no "made in the USA" label on his T-shirt.

The representative of god on earth is the pope and the pope already said "No" to the US plans. So how can god be with you ?<span id='postcolor'>

I didn't say he was labeled with the US at all. I just said he isn't against what we're doing.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This is so stupid I can´t believe...<span id='postcolor'>

I think believing a man is anywhere near God is stupid beyond all recognition.

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think believing a man is anywhere near God is stupid beyond all recognition.<span id='postcolor'>

Well that explains why Bush thinks he's the worlds next saviour....

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Having faith that what you're doing is condoned by God is religious fanaticism?<span id='postcolor'>

Pope : Speaking on behalf of the Vatican and the Lord, this war is wrong.

Bush : Ha! Screw the Pope! God is with us, only I can channel his wishes to my people! USA USA USA USA USA.... ad nauseum.

(So now he's managed to piss off the Christians who are antiwar and don't live in the US! Hooray! )

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 29 2003,23:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That's not religious fanaticism at all.  Having faith that what you're doing is condoned by God is religious fanaticism?<span id='postcolor'>

I would say yes to that when it comes to war and killing people. Now this is a tricky thing since it is a feedback connection. You are living according to your faith and therefor you try to act accordingly to your belief system. In that respect it is normal to assume that god condones your actions.

I would define religious fanaticism as a sole devotion to a religious intent with disregard to secular matters.

If you hear the voice of God in your head saying that you should go forth and kill people on the street would that be ok, since it is your faith? I don't think you would agree with that.

This is the same thing, and it doesn't matter if your name is Osama or George. Justifying kllings because 'we are the choseen ones who have God on our side' is very typical of religious fanatics.

[Akira 0]

US May Find Haven For Saddam

Interesting. Powell says the US would find safe haven for Saddam, his family and aides if he agrees to leave.

A chance for peaceful resolution? Will putting the "ball" in Saddam's court add international pressure to him, maybe averting a war and saving lives? Politically would it be wise for him to do so? Better to be a live martyr then a dead one.

[FallenPaladin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 29 2003,23:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I just said he isn't against what we're doing.<span id='postcolor'>

How could you or someone else know that. Noone knows.

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Pope : Speaking on behalf of the Vatican and the Lord, this war is wrong.<span id='postcolor'>

I doubt any Pope would give you a pro war statement.  Catholics go against the church on issues all the time.  How many Catholics practice safe sex in todays society, are pro-choice or are gay?  All of these are no-no's in the Catholic church.  Also, if you are not Catholic, you may not care what the Pope stance is.  Not saying I am that way, just a observation.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well that explains why Bush thinks he's the worlds next saviour....<span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Pope : Speaking on behalf of the Vatican and the Lord, this war is wrong.

Bush : Ha! Screw the Pope! God is with us, only I can channel his wishes to my people! USA USA USA USA USA.... ad nauseum.

(So now he's managed to piss off the Christians who are antiwar and don't live in the US! Hooray! )<span id='postcolor'>

Uhm, I think you mean the Catholics. Christians don't believe the pope is a manifestation of God. And Bush is a Christian. So there

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I would say yes to that when it comes to war and killing people. Now this is a tricky thing since it is a feedback connection. You are living according to your faith and therefor you try to act accordingly to your belief system. In that respect it is normal to assume that god condones your actions.

I would define religious fanaticism as a sole devotion to a religious intent with disregard to secular matters.

If you hear the voice of God in your head saying that you should go forth and kill people on the street would that be ok, since it is your faith? I don't think you would agree with that.

This is the same thing, and it doesn't matter if your name is Osama or George. Justifying kllings because 'we are the choseen ones who have God on our side' is very typical of religious fanatics.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree, but he's not trying to justify what we're doing simply through God. He's just saying that God condones it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How could you or someone else know that. Noone knows.<span id='postcolor'>

It's what we believe, we're not trying to prove it. But since a lot of people believe it, he's trying to encourage them by saying it and reinforcing it.

[Guest]

Here is an interesting article "In Europe, a rising tide of anti-American feeling". It is not a perfect analysis but it's the best one I've read so far written for an American newspaper.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I doubt any Pope would give you a pro war statement. <span id='postcolor'>

This is not right. The pope certainly wont give a pro-war statement, but the vatican and the pope have/had public opinions on wars and expressed them. They accept wars under UN mandatory in most cases but in this case they decided not to accept it. Read some vatican statements on GW I, Somalia or Yugoslavia for example.

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Better to be a live martyr then a dead one.

<span id='postcolor'>

Not to some of the middle easterners