The Iraq Thread

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,17:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No one has invaded anyone yet have they....<span id='postcolor'>

The world is unable to prevent an invasion if it only speaks out after it happens.

EDIT: Again, I encourage you to fix your previous post.

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,23:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 19 2003,16:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,16:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So the US gov. knew that by supporting the Soviet resistance would cause the spawn of the Taliban and terrorism.  I think not.<span id='postcolor'>

Should have, and they KNOW now that playing god is very dangerous.  So stop it finally.  Learn something at least from decades of stupid conflict!<span id='postcolor'>

Fine with me.  I would rather see the U.S. withdrawl ALL foreign aid.  Close the borders and fix our own problems.  However, I imagine that when the shit hits the fan, we will be called again. <span id='postcolor'>

Then when we close our borders, we are still one of the strongest nations. Then when something goes bad, we get bitched at for not trying to help when we have the power.

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Hey, I didn't come up with that standard... Hans Blix and the U.N. did.  I suggest you complain to them.  I just want to follow their lead as the world suggests."<span id='postcolor'>

And if Blix jumped off the MTV building, would you follow him? Blix hasnt set any standard, he is simply playing a game with rules defined pretty much by the US.<span id='postcolor'>

So you say follow the UN's lead, let the inspectors do their job.   But when a UN official says something that you don't agree with (that the burden of proof is on Iraq), it is not a fair standard?  Courts have nothing to do with this.  Also, I don't think the U.S. runs the U.N. otherwise Iraq would be invaded already right?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When and where did Saddam Hussein try and assassinate Bush?<span id='postcolor'>

April 1993 in Kuwait.  George H.W. Bush was there on a trip and Kuwaiti Intelligence foiled a Iraqi assassination plot.  President Clinton bombed Iraq with cruise missiles in retaliation.

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Jan. 19 2003,17:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 19 2003,16:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,16:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So the US gov. knew that by supporting the Soviet resistance would cause the spawn of the Taliban and terrorism.  I think not.<span id='postcolor'>

Should have, and they KNOW now that playing god is very dangerous.  So stop it finally.  Learn something at least from decades of stupid conflict!<span id='postcolor'>

Fine with me.  I would rather see the U.S. withdrawl ALL foreign aid.  Close the borders and fix our own problems.  However, I imagine that when the shit hits the fan, we will be called again. <!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

Then when we close our borders, we are still one of the strongest nations.  Then when something goes bad, we get bitched at for not trying to help when we have the power.<span id='postcolor'>

My thought exactly!

[NavyEEL 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,23:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Jan. 19 2003,17:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 19 2003,16:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,16:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So the US gov. knew that by supporting the Soviet resistance would cause the spawn of the Taliban and terrorism.  I think not.<span id='postcolor'>

Should have, and they KNOW now that playing god is very dangerous.  So stop it finally.  Learn something at least from decades of stupid conflict!<span id='postcolor'>

Fine with me.  I would rather see the U.S. withdrawl ALL foreign aid.  Close the borders and fix our own problems.  However, I imagine that when the shit hits the fan, we will be called again. <!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

Then when we close our borders, we are still one of the strongest nations.  Then when something goes bad, we get bitched at for not trying to help when we have the power.<span id='postcolor'>

My thought exactly!<span id='postcolor'>

mine too!

[red oct 2]

and mine too as well. let the other countries have their way and pull our troops out.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">THat I doubt. People live in fear, but their rage against an agressor will reunite. I say this because I recently watched a docu about teenagers in Iraq. They didnt talk in fear of opression but in a fear of war. The will certainly be pulled into the army and later on appear in a glorious statistic as "IRAQI soldiers killed". Without the threat they would be civillians. Hell I can only repeat myself over and over again but a war does not only mean dead american soldiers but especially a great amount of dead civillians and recruits that have nothing to do with 9/11 nor any of Saddams intentions.<span id='postcolor'>

Which is why, I think at least, Saudi Arabia is trying to get a military coup started (not misusing the term this time ). It'd avoid another bloody US led war.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, the neigbours of the U.S., are Mexico and Canada. Iraq is a threat to neither, nor the U.S.<span id='postcolor'>

What about the allies of the US? Saudi Arabia? Israel? Maybe even Iran?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- a great amount of casualties. <span id='postcolor'>

Imagine how many casualties there would be if a terrorist got ahold of his WMDs.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- a fully ruined infrastructure (back to the stoneage)<span id='postcolor'>

Yet if you let the US assist in building the infrastructure we're suddenly building a puppet government in the middle east.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- UN obligation to financially bring the country back on its knees<span id='postcolor'>

Which wouldn't take long, considering how much oil they have already.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- a destabilies region with unforseeable consequences<span id='postcolor'>

The region and Iraq itself are already unstable. This would probably make it more stable either way.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- growth in support of anti american resentiments and terorist activities - hitting back on the ENTIRE western world. (and belive me the US wont be the next in line, the next terorist desaster can happen anywhere with simillar outcomes to the ones of 9/11)<span id='postcolor'>

Terrorists will be terrorists. No matter what we do we're going to make someone mad. What makes you think there isn't a kurd in Northern Iraq who's getting mad because we're NOT involved?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- a seriously injured relationship between the US and the rest of the western world.<span id='postcolor'>

Not if we got a coalition and with UN support.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- a destabilised oil-price (and that untill Iraq is back on full oil-production capacity)<span id='postcolor'>

I don't see how. If they're not selling any oil now, wouldn't it lower the oil price to have them on the market?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- potential revenge strikes of Saddam <span id='postcolor'>

Not if he's out of power. And don't think we're not going to keep an eye on him.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- potential threats of revenge against Israel<span id='postcolor'>

How is Israel involved?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- a struggle of ideologies in Saudi Arabia (hell the biggest OPEC contributor)<span id='postcolor'>

explain

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Wouldnt it be worth to show a little bit more patience to prevent those side-effects<span id='postcolor'>

Not if that patience turns out to get a lot of people killed by some NBC attack.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then he shout STFU. If you claim to have proof, you better deliver. Just saying you have proof and not showing it doesnt count for much in any court of law...<span id='postcolor'>

Let's look at history for example. We KNOW saddam has these weapons. The UN inspectors KNEW of them before they were kicked out. HE HAS THEM. It's a FACT. If you think this evil person has destroyed them you're more naive than everyone says I am.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When and where did Saddam Hussein try and assassinate Bush?<span id='postcolor'>

That needs just about as much debate as the US sponsoring the Taliban.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes, and why pay when you can invade and put him out of business, thus making all contracts with competing companies void and null.<span id='postcolor'>

hahaha, you think we're doing this because he's trading with other countries? Granted, it's a violation of his terms of surrender, but it's not a good reason to invade.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No, America still attack two cities full of civilians.<span id='postcolor'>

1) Military assets and bases with cities nearby

2) this is back in the day when carpet bombing was common place. The germans, british, and americans all attacked civilian cities (the germans focused on civilians, british and americans tryed to attack military targets).

3) things have changed. we have no reason, aside from retaliation, to use WMDs.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What does that have to do with anything?<span id='postcolor'>

Because if Saddam starts to lose power he'll use WMDs again.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then when we close our borders, we are still one of the strongest nations. Then when something goes bad, we get bitched at for not trying to help when we have the power.<span id='postcolor'>

WW2 for example.

[Pukko 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (NavyEEL @ Jan. 20 2003,00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,23:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Jan. 19 2003,17:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 19 2003,16:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,16:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So the US gov. knew that by supporting the Soviet resistance would cause the spawn of the Taliban and terrorism.  I think not.<span id='postcolor'>

Should have, and they KNOW now that playing god is very dangerous.  So stop it finally.  Learn something at least from decades of stupid conflict!<span id='postcolor'>

Fine with me.  I would rather see the U.S. withdrawl ALL foreign aid.  Close the borders and fix our own problems.  However, I imagine that when the shit hits the fan, we will be called again. <!--emo&<!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

Then when we close our borders, we are still one of the strongest nations.  Then when something goes bad, we get bitched at for not trying to help when we have the power.<span id='postcolor'>

My thought exactly!<span id='postcolor'>

mine too!<span id='postcolor'>

Mine too, since I recon USA does more bad than good at present. The global community needs to sit on their asses and just try to improve relations in the current crucial phase of our globalisation; splitting up the world even more as USA (Imo) currently does is something we can all do without.

Unfortionally (and this is not US bashing, but a strong feeling I have) USA will probably shorten its historical period as the most powerful nation quite much if that is done. But its still better than the eventual collapse that I believe USA will come to in the closest decades if the US continues down the current road. Dont ask me to clarify it, since its rather too abstract to discuss in this forum; but you can read 'some quite pathetical attempts' to explain it in for example the mideast thread (I found it: here )

[Harnu 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote

- potential threats of revenge against Israel

How is Israel involved? <span id='postcolor'>

Isreal is involved because as you said they are allies of the US.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Posted on Jan. 20 2003,000

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Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,23:49)

Quote (Harnu @ Jan. 19 2003,17:35)

Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,23)

Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 19 2003,16:56)

Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,16:54)

So the US gov. knew that by supporting the Soviet resistance would cause the spawn of the Taliban and terrorism. I think not.

Should have, and they KNOW now that playing god is very dangerous. So stop it finally. Learn something at least from decades of stupid conflict!

Fine with me. I would rather see the U.S. withdrawl ALL foreign aid. Close the borders and fix our own problems. However, I imagine that when the shit hits the fan, we will be called again. <!--emo&

Then when we close our borders, we are still one of the strongest nations. Then when something goes bad, we get bitched at for not trying to help when we have the power.

My thought exactly!

mine too!<span id='postcolor'>

So do you see what I mean? The US will be resented either way we go.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Jan. 19 2003,18:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Posted on Jan. 20 2003,000

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Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,23:49)

Quote (Harnu @ Jan. 19 2003,17:35)

Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,23)

Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 19 2003,16:56)

Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,16:54)

So the US gov. knew that by supporting the Soviet resistance would cause the spawn of the Taliban and terrorism. I think not.

Should have, and they KNOW now that playing god is very dangerous. So stop it finally. Learn something at least from decades of stupid conflict!

Fine with me. I would rather see the U.S. withdrawl ALL foreign aid. Close the borders and fix our own problems. However, I imagine that when the shit hits the fan, we will be called again. <!--emo&

Then when we close our borders, we are still one of the strongest nations. Then when something goes bad, we get bitched at for not trying to help when we have the power.

My thought exactly!

mine too!<span id='postcolor'>

So do you see what I mean? The US will be resented either way we go.<span id='postcolor'>

Okay, but go the other way please. Starting now. Not after all of the mid east is a mess and the world a warzone.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 20 2003,00:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- a destabilies region with unforseeable consequences<span id='postcolor'>

The region and Iraq itself are already unstable.  This would probably make it more stable either way.<span id='postcolor'>

America is hardly popular in that region. Dropping bombs will hardly make them like you more. The only one you might do some 'bonding' with is Israel, and you already have a good relation with them. The arab states are all against a war on Iraq. Even Iran, Iraq's nemesis is against a US led war.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- a seriously injured relationship between the US and the rest of the western world.<span id='postcolor'>

Not if we got a coalition and with UN support.<span id='postcolor'>

Except for that you won't get it. If you havn't noticed you and the UK are alone. Very few other countries agree with you. The absolute majority of the world is against a war on Iraq.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">- a destabilised oil-price (and that untill Iraq is back on full oil-production capacity)<span id='postcolor'>

I don't see how. If they're not selling any oil now, wouldn't it lower the oil price to have them on the market?<span id='postcolor'>

Of course they are. Food for oil program. They are giving us oil more or less for free (for some of our sureplus wheat production). If a new government is put in place by the US, the prices will be standard market prices. Since the US will be in control of those oil sales it will make quite some money. Nice little deal.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then he shout STFU. If you claim to have proof, you better deliver. Just saying you have proof and not showing it doesnt count for much in any court of law...<span id='postcolor'>

Let's look at history for example. We KNOW saddam has these weapons. The UN inspectors KNEW of them before they were kicked out. HE HAS THEM. It's a FACT. If you think this evil person has destroyed them you're more naive than everyone says I am. <span id='postcolor'>

Enter the realm of the sheep: I have no proof but I trust my government since they are good and would never have an agenda.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What does that have to do with anything?<span id='postcolor'>

Because if Saddam starts to lose power he'll use WMDs again.<span id='postcolor'>

The fact that he didn't use them the last war when his existance was endangered (he certainly had both chemical and biological weapons then) makes a pretty solid case against the 'mad dictator' theory.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Then when we close our borders, we are still one of the strongest nations. Then when something goes bad, we get bitched at for not trying to help when we have the power.<span id='postcolor'>

The problem is in the combination of those. If you want to play the world police, then you have to stick to international rules. If you don't want to play along with international rules, then stop messing around with the world. Its quite simple and logical.

[red oct 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Harnu @ Jan. 20 2003,00:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote  

- potential threats of revenge against Israel

How is Israel involved?  <span id='postcolor'>

Isreal is involved because as you said they are allies of the US.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Posted on Jan. 20 2003,000

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Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,23:49)

Quote (Harnu @ Jan. 19 2003,17:35)

Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,23)

Quote (bn880 @ Jan. 19 2003,16:56)

Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,16:54)

So the US gov. knew that by supporting the Soviet resistance would cause the spawn of the Taliban and terrorism.  I think not.

Should have, and they KNOW now that playing god is very dangerous.  So stop it finally.  Learn something at least from decades of stupid conflict!

Fine with me.  I would rather see the U.S. withdrawl ALL foreign aid.  Close the borders and fix our own problems.  However, I imagine that when the shit hits the fan, we will be called again. <!--emo&

Then when we close our borders, we are still one of the strongest nations.  Then when something goes bad, we get bitched at for not trying to help when we have the power.

My thought exactly!

mine too!<span id='postcolor'>

So do you see what I mean?  The US will be resented either way we go.<span id='postcolor'>

i say let them resent us for doing nothing. it means somebody else will have to do the dirty work which gives us some time and resources to improve our country and problems and best of all we won't have to spill our blood for some country who will in time just become ungrateful for it.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Imagine how many casualties there would be if a terrorist got ahold of his WMDs.

<span id='postcolor'>

ZERO, or have I missed the exploration of Saddams underground nuke facility ?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Maybe even Iran?<span id='postcolor'>

You don´t know much about the present Iraq <-> Iran situation , do you ?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">US assist in building<span id='postcolor'>

Like in Afghanistan ? You assist there ? LOL !

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The region and Iraq itself are already unstable. This would probably make it more stable either way.<span id='postcolor'>

Again you prove to know not very much about the political and ethnical situation right now. Also you lack information on how a situation during / after an US/ally intervention would develope. Leading minds in international affairs WARN of an uncontrolable situation for the whole region, but again you simply ignore it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What makes you think there isn't a kurd in Northern Iraq who's getting mad because we're NOT involved?

<span id='postcolor'>

The kurds don´t need to get mad about you. They already experienced the great "aid" they were promised by Bush sr. They had to pay for your strategical power games with their blood.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not if we got a coalition and with UN support.<span id='postcolor'>

Bush repeated his willingness to fight the war alone last week.

Funny that he handed in a list of things he wants from NATO in case off last week also...

Oh yes and he wants money for the costs of his troop gathering from his "allies". Noone asked him for troops down there, so US should pay for their presidential marching not the countries that doubt his motives. Oh maybe he should raise a presidential war tax in the US. Donate for bombs !

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If they're not selling any oil now, wouldn't it lower the oil price to have them on the market?<span id='postcolor'>

No. Why should it ?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And don't think we're not going to keep an eye on him.

<span id='postcolor'>

Hehe yes , understood... Is it you Mr Cheney ?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How is Israel involved?<span id='postcolor'>

Better check the history book and DS 1 story.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not if that patience turns out to get a lot of people killed by some NBC attack.<span id='postcolor'>

Again you are judging on speculations. Again you shoot first and then ask. Again you disobey international law and basic human rights for a rumour.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">HE HAS THEM. It's a FACT.<span id='postcolor'>

Repeating it all over and over won´t make it proven FS Pilot.

Do you think such things (production facilities and raw materials) can be hidden in a trousers pocket.

Again: Iraq is by far the most open state for aerial surveilance.

Any testing of WMD´s which need to go along with their developement would have been detected from second 0. Remember the bio tests in Afghanistan ? Although there was no special watch on Afghanistan that time the sat´s found prove for testing of B weapons.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">hahaha, you think we're doing this because he's trading with other countries? Granted, it's a violation of his terms of surrender, but it's not a good reason to invade.<span id='postcolor'>

Better stop laughing and read a bit what the possible new leadership of Iraq had to say about this. Now it´s me laughing over your lack of info

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the germans focused on civilians, british and americans tryed to attack military targets<span id='postcolor'>

Oh then Berlin must have been dreaming when 18 waves of carpet bombings went over them during ONE day !

Same with Dreden, Hannover...

They intentionally bombarded civilians to lower morale and bring them to their knees. This is no secret. Also US and Brits make no secret of it.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Military assets and bases with cities nearby<span id='postcolor'>

Yes lets blast half of the planet next time...you will definately hit some military installations then. Again your logic and arrogance towards human life makes me sick.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Because if Saddam starts to lose power he'll use WMDs again.<span id='postcolor'>

So you think he used gas on kurds because of a loss of power ?

No. He used it because they kurds have colaborated with abraod forces to bring him down. That´s why, not because he was in danger of losing power. It was a statement.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">WW2 for example.<span id='postcolor'>

Again, it is not Iraq attacking US or anyone else, but US intending to do so.

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote

Then when we close our borders, we are still one of the strongest nations. Then when something goes bad, we get bitched at for not trying to help when we have the power.

The problem is in the combination of those. If you want to play the world police, then you have to stick to international rules. If you don't want to play along with international rules, then stop messing around with the world. Its quite simple and logical.

<span id='postcolor'>

Thx for this one denoir.

[nopulse 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,14:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Article about Iraq training terrorists<span id='postcolor'>

CNTUZ, you can believe everything you read or hear.  I mean it could very well be propaganda. Most countries use propaganda to influence their people for support.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 19 2003,20:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I want to go on record as saying that I will not support a war on Iraq unless we can find his weapons, or evidence that he's done anything except destroy his weapons. Frankly, IMO, he should be removed from power because he's a dictator who rapes and murders his own people (probably not personally, but you get the idea), but that's just my opinion.<span id='postcolor'>

So I guess that removing such a dictator from power by force is ok as long as he wasn't set up by the US right? I mean you've repeatedly defended Batista's regime in Cuba and the United State's support of him.

[5thSFG.CNUTZ 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (nopulse @ Jan. 19 2003,19:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 19 2003,14:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Article about Iraq training terrorists<span id='postcolor'>

CNTUZ, you can believe everything you read or hear.  I mean it could very well be propaganda. Most countries use propaganda to influence their people for support.<span id='postcolor'>

I don't... However, I would say that web page has just as much credibility as some of you conspiracy site you show us.  You can't have it both ways. Also, if it was propaganda, would the Taipei Times print it? They are not a american news agency. Site Article Here

[nopulse 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (5thSFG.CNUTZ @ Jan. 20 2003,01:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I don't... However, I would say that web page has just as much credibility as some of you conspiracy site you show us.  You can't have it both ways.  Also, if it was propaganda, would the Taipei Times print it?  They are not a american news agency. Site Article Here<span id='postcolor'>

Never said any of the links i've posted on conspiracy sites are truth, just interesting reading.  Just makes you wonder sometimes!

Just because it was printed from an Iraqi paper, still doesn't mean it couldn't be propaganda.  There are citizens in Iraq that are U.S sympathizers, and vice versa.

Just look at the crap they put in the National Enquirer, just because its printed in the U.S, doesn't mean that Bill Clinton or G.W Bush has met with Aliens

[OxPecker 0]

Is there ANY news source that both sides of this debate trust?

Every time someone quotes anything from the internet or other media the other side dismisses it as propganda.

Isn't there any unbiased news sources left in the world?

[Balschoiw 0]

I believe in the things I see. And I have seen plenty of them in:

Somalia,

Congo,

White Russia,

former Yugoslavia,

and some South american countries.

And I believe in free press, not the sensation hunting one but the one that risks life to spread their info.

And I believe in people that tell things to me they have seen with their own eyes.

I dont believe in CNN and other major news broadcasting companies that have already shown to be biased in the latest history. I don´t forget the "live" report from 9/11 that showed dancing palestinians on the streets. It was broadcasted by CNN, commented "these are live pictures from palestina, showing palestinians celebrating the terrorist act on WTC". The truth was that the pictures were made 3 years before WTC at a palestinian celebration day. See what I mean ?

There was a huge report that the Bush administration tried to "buy" journalists here in europe to promote their "truth". This is no conspiracy shit, but really true.

You know before US took part in Yugoslavia conflict the pressure towards the government came from the media. Now it is totally turned around. A government uses the media to promote their "views" and make people ready for war.

You remember the bureau founded in the US only dealing with opinions of people ? You control the media, you control the people. Most of the time this works. Nothing else happened in 3rd Reich.

I am happy that I still see that US people find their way out to the streets to protest against the Bush plans to break international law and open up a new era of wars for dubiouse reasons. I love to see that people start to think again and I hope we all will be able to have a chat like this in one year. I lost friends during missions and I know what a life is worth. No matter if the human is red,white, black, yellow, muslim, catholic, protestant, or whatever.

[bn880 5]

Well said Balschoiw. As usual.

I wanted to throw this little news event in,

new Bin Laden message

4 More warheads...

[Badgerboy 0]

It's not impossible that FSpilot could get drafted soon, what with the world situation and his birthday coming up.

I'm sure that his viewpoint concerning military action, and 'Military targets', would drastically change for the better.

As for your rambling about bombing 'military targets' in WW2..... My country, and yours, blew the hell out of Dresden. I still shudder when I think of that. I had the opportunity to speak to some Lanc pilots a couple of months ago. As a matter of fact one of these gents mentioned the Dresden raids, and said he would never forgive himself for what they did. 'No-one deserved to be sacrificed like that in the name of war'

But I'm sure their opionion has no significance, eh Fspilot?

(And with an attitude like that, I think you will be limited to flight sims)

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Isreal is involved because as you said they are allies of the US.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes and no. Yes they're our friends and if someone wants to kill everything american, they may attack our friends. No becaue they probably wont get involved militarily.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So do you see what I mean? The US will be resented either way we go.<span id='postcolor'>

But you don't provide a solution so we may as well delay it as best we can.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">America is hardly popular in that region. Dropping bombs will hardly make them like you more. The only one you might do some 'bonding' with is Israel, and you already have a good relation with them. The arab states are all against a war on Iraq. Even Iran, Iraq's nemesis is against a US led war.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, but they're not against taking him out of power.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Except for that you won't get it. If you havn't noticed you and the UK are alone. Very few other countries agree with you. The absolute majority of the world is against a war on Iraq.<span id='postcolor'>

Unless we find weapons, or where he's been exporting them to.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Of course they are. Food for oil program. They are giving us oil more or less for free (for some of our sureplus wheat production). If a new government is put in place by the US, the prices will be standard market prices. Since the US will be in control of those oil sales it will make quite some money. Nice little deal.<span id='postcolor'>

How would the US be in control of the oil? Iraq would be a seperate nation and in control of itself.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Enter the realm of the sheep: I have no proof but I trust my government since they are good and would never have an agenda.<span id='postcolor'>

Enter the realm of the blind activist. What I said had nothing to do with my government. UN INSPECTORS, not US inspectors, but UN INSPECTORS found these weapons. If you think he got rid of them, I've got a bridge to sell you.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The fact that he didn't use them the last war when his existance was endangered (he certainly had both chemical and biological weapons then) makes a pretty solid case against the 'mad dictator' theory.<span id='postcolor'>

But he did use them in two wars before that, AND he attacked a civilian population in the last war.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ZERO, or have I missed the exploration of Saddams underground nuke facility ?<span id='postcolor'>

You missed the weapons inspections in 1998?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You don´t know much about the present Iraq <-> Iran situation , do you ?<span id='postcolor'>

I think we're talking about the US <-> Iran situation.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Like in Afghanistan ? You assist there ? LOL !<span id='postcolor'>

LOL! You're right we are!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The kurds don´t need to get mad about you. They already experienced the great "aid" they were promised by Bush sr. They had to pay for your strategical power games with their blood.<span id='postcolor'>

Ugh, you're ignoring my point completely. My point was that no matter what we do, there will always be some crazy stupid osama bin laden that gets pissed off and straps himself to a bomb.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bush repeated his willingness to fight the war alone last week.<span id='postcolor'>

Uh, ok. You're ignoring my point again. If they found weapons in Iraq, the UN would go forth with the war. Then we'd have a coalition and would go it alone.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh yes and he wants money for the costs of his troop gathering from his "allies". Noone asked him for troops down there, so US should pay for their presidential marching not the countries that doubt his motives. Oh maybe he should raise a presidential war tax in the US. Donate for bombs !<span id='postcolor'>

Haven't heard anything about it, but I agree. We should pay for our own troops. But then again everyone else should pay for theirs.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If they're not selling any oil now, wouldn't it lower the oil price to have them on the market?<span id='postcolor'>

No. Why should it ?<span id='postcolor'>

Because when you flood the market with something it's prices go down. If there's one Babe Ruth baseball card in the world, it's going to cost about a million dollars. But if everyone has one, they're going to be worth about 10 cents each.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hehe yes , understood... Is it you Mr Cheney ? <span id='postcolor'>

WHO TOLD YOU!!!... oh, you were joking...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Better check the history book and DS 1 story.<span id='postcolor'>

Don't dodge the question.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Again you are judging on speculations. Again you shoot first and then ask. Again you disobey international law and basic human rights for a rumour.<span id='postcolor'>

It's not a rumor. UN inspectors found weapons in 1998, and DIDNT destroy them. They're still out there somewhere.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Repeating it all over and over won´t make it proven FS Pilot.

Do you think such things (production facilities and raw materials) can be hidden in a trousers pocket.<span id='postcolor'>

That's not a chemical weapons factory, it's a baby hospital. It's not a nuclear detonator, it's a kidney dialysis machine.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Any testing of WMD´s which need to go along with their developement would have been detected from second 0. Remember the bio tests in Afghanistan ? Although there was no special watch on Afghanistan that time the sat´s found prove for testing of B weapons.<span id='postcolor'>

You're right, they'd probably test it in a city somewhere.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh then Berlin must have been dreaming when 18 waves of carpet bombings went over them during ONE day !

Same with Dreden, Hannover...

They intentionally bombarded civilians to lower morale and bring them to their knees. This is no secret. Also US and Brits make no secret of it.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, I must of been wrong. Then again the Germans did too.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes lets blast half of the planet next time...you will definately hit some military installations then. Again your logic and arrogance towards human life makes me sick.<span id='postcolor'>

Don't be a drama star, we saved lives by dropping those bombs. Even you should know that.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So you think he used gas on kurds because of a loss of power ?

No. He used it because they kurds have colaborated with abraod forces to bring him down. That´s why, not because he was in danger of losing power. It was a statement.<span id='postcolor'>

You're agreeing with me or just nitpicking? So now we have to worry about Saddam using WMDs to make a statement.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Again, it is not Iraq attacking US or anyone else, but US intending to do so.<span id='postcolor'>

Because we think he's going to attack us. I've said this so many times.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I mean you've repeatedly defended Batista's regime in Cuba and the United State's support of him.<span id='postcolor'>

The one I knew nothing about and am in no position to comment on?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There was a huge report that the Bush administration tried to "buy" journalists here in europe to promote their "truth". This is no conspiracy shit, but really true<span id='postcolor'>

You have a source for that?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's not impossible that FSpilot could get drafted soon, what with the world situation and his birthday coming up.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually I've been eligible for the draft for several months now.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'm sure that his viewpoint concerning military action, and 'Military targets', would drastically change for the better.<span id='postcolor'>

Ohhh, so defending yourself is a bad reason to go to war?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But I'm sure their opionion has no significance, eh Fspilot?<span id='postcolor'>

Depends. If they're obviously biased, no. If they speak the truth, then i'll listen to them.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(And with an attitude like that, I think you will be limited to flight sims)<span id='postcolor'>

You're getting pretty personal. Are you running out of real arguments?

[FSPilot 0]

Just do I know, would you all support the war IF the UN inspectors found WMDs in Iraq OR good evidence of Saddam exporting them?

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Jan. 20 2003,05:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I mean you've repeatedly defended Batista's regime in Cuba and the United State's support of him.<span id='postcolor'>

The one I knew nothing about and am in no position to comment on?<span id='postcolor'>

LOL oh jeez, at least now you admit that! But see, you're proving once again what a lot of us are saying - you jump in blindly to defend your country and your government without even considering the facts. You just take in the facts that support your country's actions and ignore anything that goes against them....just what the hell were you doing defending Batista's regime if you didn't know anything about it?