Nato

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Nov. 17 2002,02:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Peacekeeping is nowhere near "beneficial" as real training.  In my experience,  peacekeeping boiled down to patrolling the streets waving to the little kids until someone finds an unexploded grenade or a few weapons in an abandonned house.  In essence, it felt like being a half-ass cop. Sorry, I didn't sign up to be a sorry MP. When UN peacekeepers have actually had to go into combat, their performance has been absymal, usually being run off by bands of ragtags rebels until the combat troops come in.<span id='postcolor'>

Have you actually been on a peace keeping mission or are you just guessing?

[PitViper 0]

3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 16 2002,213)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Nov. 17 2002,02:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Peacekeeping is nowhere near "beneficial" as real training.  In my experience,  peacekeeping boiled down to patrolling the streets waving to the little kids until someone finds an unexploded grenade or a few weapons in an abandonned house.  In essence, it felt like being a half-ass cop. Sorry, I didn't sign up to be a sorry MP. When UN peacekeepers have actually had to go into combat, their performance has been absymal, usually being run off by bands of ragtags rebels until the combat troops come in.<span id='postcolor'>

Have you actually been on a peace keeping mission or are you just guessing?<span id='postcolor'>

I ETS'ed 2 weeks before my unit was shipping out for the balkans.  However,  I maintained contact with 3 or 4 of my buddies during their 6 month stint there and they confirmed everything that we had feared going over there.  

and yes, I have been involved in multinational exercises.. specifically in Egypt. I don't remember seeing any swedes there

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Nov. 17 2002,03:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I ETS'ed 2 weeks before my unit was shipping out for the balkans.  However,  I maintained contact with 3 or 4 of my buddies during their 6 month stint there and they confirmed everything that we had feared going over there.  <span id='postcolor'>

You don't think it is because the genuine lack of interest for peace keeping that US forces get no important assignements?

I repeat that peace keeping missions are the best training possible except for actual war. I already stated my reason in a couple of posts back, so I feel no need to explain it again.

[second_draw 0]

You nothern hemisphere ppl are just grouping to stop us aussies from taking over the world. . Seriously, i have been lead to believe what pitviper said. Such as the weapon consfications being just media eye-candy, they did nothing to stop 6000 civilians being slaughtered........

in my experience, I remember a big debate here previously about this, i just saw "No man's land" (btw, great movie) and i have read around quiet a bit. Then again this is no substitute for real experience. Set us straight denoir or just anyone.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (second_draw @ Nov. 17 2002,03:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You nothern hemisphere ppl are just grouping to stop us aussies from taking over the world. . Seriously, i have been lead to believe what pitviper said. Such as the weapon consfications being just media eye-candy, they did nothing to stop 6000 civilians being slaughtered........

in my experience, I remember a big debate here previously about this, i just saw "No man's land" (btw, great movie) and i have read around quiet a bit. Then again this is no substitute for real experience. Set us straight denoir or just anyone.<span id='postcolor'>

There is a big difference between peace keeping and peace keeping. You should ask Ran to describe the difference of being under a UN flag and an IFOR flag in Bosnia.

The thing that you have to keep in mind with the UN is that it is not a military organization and can't be expected to act as one. IFOR (today SFOR) and KFOR on the other hand are pure military organizations and have a mission and mandate to act in force, somthing that the UN never had.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 16 2002,21:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is a big difference between peace keeping and peace keeping.<span id='postcolor'>

pardon?

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Nov. 17 2002,03:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 16 2002,21:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There is a big difference between peace keeping and peace keeping.<span id='postcolor'>

pardon?<span id='postcolor'>

Peace keeping is not an unambiguous definition of activity. For instance peace keeping under UN flag and IFOR flag were two completely different things. Peace keeping is only as good as the genuine political support it has.

[FSPilot 0]

Good point. There are different objectives and rules for each different organisation. It all depends.

[second_draw 0]

Exuce me, but how the hell is sending in an organisation to morally object to the conflict help? what about handouts?IFOR could have done the handouts and have stopped the 6000 casulties of ppl waiting for the handouts.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (second_draw @ Nov. 17 2002,04:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Exuce me, but how the hell is sending in an organisation to morally object to the conflict help? what about handouts?IFOR could have done the handouts and have stopped the 6000 casulties of ppl waiting for the handouts.<span id='postcolor'>

That was the situation. Europe was impotent and America was not interested

[foxer 0]

I remember something about an british general didn't listen to an america general order,about taking blackhawks to take the kosvo airport before the russians got there.Because he didn't listen to the america general ,they had to add the russians to the peacekeeping mission.Anyone ever know what happen to that british general ? Also i think peacekeeping does hurt the well trained forces.Because no one wants to always be in a shithole away from family,home.So they would mostly leave the army.So they would have to find someone else to replace him.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ Nov. 17 2002,04:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I remember something about an british general didn't listen to an america general order,about taking blackhawks to take the kosvo airport before the russians got there.Because he didn't listen to the america general ,they had to add the russians to the peacekeeping mission.Anyone ever know what happen to that british general ?<span id='postcolor'>

I don't know about the general, but the Russian action was very cool. NATO and Russia could not agree on the territorial division of peace keeping in Kosovo so in the end NATO forces just decided to grab as much as they could. The key point was Pristina (Kosovo's capital). The Russians countered by taking the Pristina airport with paratroopers before NATO troops could arrive.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also i think peacekeeping does hurt the well trained forces.Because no one wants to always be in a shithole away from family,home.So they would mostly leave the army.So they would have to find someone else to replace him.<span id='postcolor'>

Where do you think you are when you are at war. Home in Kansas? As for training, do you really think that the peace keeping forces just sit idle on their behinds? They are constantly in training.

Sometimes you Americans really surprise me. "Away from family, home"?? What do you think the role of a soldier is? To sit by his family watching TV and going to McDonalds on weekeneds? That's not how you train soldiers to do well in combat.

[Cloney 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 17 2002,02:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> I read someplace that he Italians didn't send an infantry unit to the Gulf in '91 because they didn't want to embarrass themselves. This is right when the Cold War ended mind you, so Italian army should have still retained all it Cold War Equipment, Training and Funding.<span id='postcolor'>

This is bullshit. In '97 during my service time my unit was on a NATO excersise in Norway (Neptune). The Italian alpine rangers came in third in the competition while the US marines came in on 16th place. The Italian soldiers were quite good and had excellent equipment.<span id='postcolor'>

Marines = Regular Infantry with a very diverse mission statement. Can the Alpine Rangers fight in the Desert?  

The Alpine Rangers are specifially trained for winter warfare. The Marines are trained for a variety of different missions.

[FSPilot 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 17 2002,09:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sometimes you Americans really surprise me.<span id='postcolor'>

Please don't overgeneralize like that.

I'm an American and I don't think that at all.

[foxer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 17 2002,04:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Also i think peacekeeping does hurt the well trained forces.Because no one wants to always be in a shithole away from family,home.So they would mostly leave the army.So they would have to find someone else to replace him.<span id='postcolor'>

Where do you think you are when you are at war. Home in Kansas? As for training, do you really think that the peace keeping forces just sit idle on their behinds? They are constantly in training.

Sometimes you Americans really surprise me. "Away from family, home"?? What do you think the role of a soldier is? To sit by his family watching TV and going to McDonalds on weekeneds? That's not how you train soldiers to do well in combat.<span id='postcolor'>

No,but you don't want to keep sending soldiers to battle,or over seas.Because people get sick of leaving family(wife,kids, etc,etc).But i do agree they sign up for the crap. But they won't sign up the 2nd time around ,if they keep getting sent to crappy places.Then you have to find someone else to replace that soldier.Who could be not as qualitfied(Did i spell it right?) as the other guy.Remember you have to sign up to be in the military in america.You don't have to serve.So there less quality people to go around in the military.

[Guest]

7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ Nov. 17 2002,057)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Marines = Regular Infantry with a very diverse mission statement. Can the Alpine Rangers fight in the Desert?  

The Alpine Rangers are specifially trained for winter warfare. The Marines are trained for a variety of different missions.<span id='postcolor'>

It was summer and we were not in the mountains. The only units that had some advantage were the amphibious ones since about 1/3 of the excersise was focused on amphibious operational training. We (attack divers) came in second after my old unit, the costal rangers. Italians came in third. I think German fourth and Russians sixth.

The marines lost a lot of points because they managed to get lost in the woods (although we all had GPS). Otherwise they were fairly competent but nothing spectacular.

Edit: I am perfectly aware that such an excersise might not give an accurate representation of the quality of the soldiers. In one of the drills we had to climb trees, lol (actually the marines were really good at that if I remember correctly).

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Nov. 17 2002,05:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 17 2002,09:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sometimes you Americans really surprise me.<span id='postcolor'>

Please don't overgeneralize like that.

I'm an American and I don't think that at all.<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry, my bad.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 17 2002,05:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Edit: I am perfectly aware that such an excersise might not give an accurate representation of the quality of the soldiers. In one of the drills we had to climb trees, lol  (actually the marines were really good at that if I remember correctly).<span id='postcolor'>

Well okay then.

Semper Fi

[FSPilot 0]

I don't think I understand these competitions.

It seems to me like they're testing taxi drivers by putting them on a race track.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (foxer @ Nov. 16 2002,22:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I remember something about an british general didn't listen to an america general order,about taking blackhawks to take the kosvo airport before the russians got there.Because he didn't listen to the america general ,they had to add the russians to the peacekeeping mission.Anyone ever know what happen to that british general ?<span id='postcolor'>

Here he is:

He told them to just "Beat It"

LOL

[PitViper 0]

Denoir.

the point is: when you are peacekeeping, you are forced to miss all your critical skills training and field exercises. You are most likely doing some job that is not your battlefield mission. These skills are very perishable. Now, maybe in some jobs like an intel puke, you may be using your job skills, but for most soldiers, you are simply wasting time. I'd rather be in a field exercise than in a peacekeeping mission.

[Guest]

The point is: You have field excersises all the time. That is about the only bloody thing that you do. What did you really think that a semi-idle military organization could do anything else but train?

Also, I can guarantee you that as for instance a KFOR soldier in Kosovo you will more likely get experience under fire then you would have for instance as a US soldier in Afganistan.

Obviously I must repeat myself. What are the benifits for training for a soldier:

[*] Field logistics experience

[*] Experience under fire

[*] Experience with cooperation with other allied units

[*] Continuous field excersises, pt

[*] Expereince with mines

[*] Real life MOUT

....

The list continues. As I said, a peace keeping operation is a full scale military operation without the killing of a lot of people.

If you can't see the value in that then I grant you that by leaving the military you would be doing Uncle Sam a great favour.

[KingBeast 0]

British troops do a lot of peacekeeping, in fact British troops are always among the top lot considered for peacekeeping missions. I would say from most accounts they consider it valuable training.

Is it any surprise that SAS training has always involved a tour in Northern Ireland?

Field training can teach you certain skills, but i doubt it would give you any experience of the battlefield itself, as you know you are not in any real danger. Everything is planned out and arranged. You cant arrange for people to not try and put a bullet in your head while peacekeeping.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 17 2002,09:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[*] Field logistics experience

[*] Experience under fire

[*] Experience with cooperation with other allied units

[*] Continuous field excersises, pt

[*] Expereince with mines

[*] Real life MOUT<span id='postcolor'>

hell yeah , i've had more action in my 2 cumulated years in serbia than in all my field exercises

and RL is better than all those "laser tag"like Miles CQB exercies

where can you learn real counter sniper tactics with a real enemy sniper ?

where can you learn minesweeping and explosive ordnance in a real war zone ?

where can you fire live munitions on real live targets ?

where can you test your nerves under the fire of an enemy sniper or mortar ?

where can you meet military soldiers from half a dozen other allied military forces in a warzone ?

some of you people take some peacekeeping missions as a generality , but every case is different

i think that peacekeeping , if not a real war , really have the look of it

did anybody of you follow the command changes in bosnia between 1992 to 1997 ?

i've had the chance to participate to the first UN mission and to the IFOR mission respectively in 1993 and 1996

not all the peacekeeping missions are just long times where you have just to sit around ... i don't like the way you have to describe them , you didn't pass by what denoir and me passed

[ran 0]

peacekeeping areas ARE battlefields ... even if they aren't as hot as they were , there are still remains of the past war(s)

not every peacekeeping missions are pieces of cake