The Forgotten Battles

[Aaron Kane 0]

I understand that Tovarish, and I'm not questioning the Yak3's combat abilities.  It was an excellent fighter, perhaps the best of WWII.  Its the AI that bothers me.

Last night I engaged a Yak3 at 7500 meters.  I was flying a FW190D9, and I simply could not shake him.  I tried an immelman, several hammerheads, and then after five minutes I simply dived with a slight turn, so he ran out of ammo trying to hit me.  All the AI does is constantly turn directly towards my aircraft.  They never lose sight of me, and follow me straight through clouds.  And they NEVER EVEN STALL!  They will have the little smokey trails from their wingtips and everything, but they remain in control of their aircraft under any circumstances.  If this was changed, and the AI could actually stall, then it'd make the AI much more vulnerable, and IMO realistic.

And sadly, its not only the late war Yak fighters that fight this way. I've been unable to shake Lagg3 1941 models as well. MiG3's too. I can understand being OUTTURNED by a I16 or other small nimble fighter, but it doesnt seem to be the turning that is the problem. Its the all around flight behavior of their aircraft.

I'm also not doubting that this "perfect" AI works for both sides, not only Soviet aircraft.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Sounds like you need a Bf109F4 bro. I am absolutely in love with this plane, and I'm actually kind of dreading the eventual upgrade to the G2, as it is (imo) an inferior model. The only thing I envy Fw190 drivers now is their cannon- they have two to four, and I have only one

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aaron Kane @ Mar. 18 2003,22:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I understand that Tovarish, and I'm not questioning the Yak3's combat abilities.  It was an excellent fighter, perhaps the best of WWII.  Its the AI that bothers me.

Last night I engaged a Yak3 at 7500 meters.  I was flying a FW190D9, and I simply could not shake him.  I tried an immelman, several hammerheads, and then after five minutes I simply dived with a slight turn, so he ran out of ammo trying to hit me.  All the AI does is constantly turn directly towards my aircraft.  They never lose sight of me, and follow me straight through clouds.  And they NEVER EVEN STALL!  They will have the little smokey trails from their wingtips and everything, but they remain in control of their aircraft under any circumstances.  If this was changed, and the AI could actually stall, then it'd make the AI much more vulnerable, and IMO realistic.

And sadly, its not only the late war Yak fighters that fight this way.  I've been unable to shake Lagg3 1941 models as well.  MiG3's too.  I can understand being OUTTURNED by a I16 or other small nimble fighter, but it doesnt seem to be the turning that is the problem.  Its the all around flight behavior of their aircraft.  

I'm also not doubting that this "perfect" AI works for both sides, not only Soviet aircraft.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually I've found that the AI FM is a lot les "uber" than it was in IL-2..yes, I've noticed it is still dumbed down a bit (the flight model that is - for one thing, AI dosen't feel the effects of recoil, just let your autopilot fight for a bit and you'll see. Also my felow wingmen don't seem to have much better careburaetors on their I-16's, no ill effects from negative G's for them) but by far not as much as before, and it's much, much smarter to boot. I've also seen AI make very human mistakes now - like panic! In one recent mission, our flight of 7 I-16's came across a lone bf-109 that had strayed too far ahead of his formation. On the initial pass, he dove without anyone firing a single shot, and never came out of the dive. I have this saved as a track. (and yes I've thoughrougly confirmed that no shots were fired at all, the pilot was alive, and the plane was undamaged and under control well into the dive)

[Tex -USMC- 0]

I do know that the 'Ace' AI will kick anyone's ass at any time, when given a halfway decent airplane- put the Prokryshkyn P-39 on Ace and I defy you to to do anything but run away. I know- I spent the better part of an afternoon trying to beat it, and got maybe 3 or 4 hits lol.

[Badgerboy 0]

Its a shame that the Hartmann AI tends to T+B far too much.

Incidently I went looking for him at JG III/52, but he's not there. How cool would it to be Erich Hartmanns wingman? (He only lost one wingman, a bomber pilot, and he bailed. Hartmann even flew out to pick him up in the Sqn Storch)

BTW, MkII Hurri's rock (C wing)! The Hispanos rip 109's to shreds. If this is any indication of how the Spitfire will perform, I can't wait. Shame the beautiful roar of the Merlin sounds like lawnmower.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 19 2003,02:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I do know that the 'Ace' AI will kick anyone's ass at any time, when given a halfway decent airplane- put the Prokryshkyn P-39 on Ace and I defy you to to do anything but run away. I know- I spent the better part of an afternoon trying to beat it, and got maybe 3 or 4 hits lol.<span id='postcolor'>

Shot him down in just over 1 minute, 30 seconds in a 1943 P-47 . (Ok, so it took 5 tries before I survived the head on pass....but after that it was surprizingly easy...and yes, he was on Ace). Unfortunately, something seemes to be wrong with my student webspace, so I can't upload the track. I'll probably be able to put it up tomorrow

*edit* not much to see anyway...he tried to extend from me after the heads on and that was it for him...on a side note, me with no speedbar, I got confused by the mph guage on the P-47 for a few seconds, I thought, "damn, the quick mission builder started me off near stall speed!"

*edit again* hmm after close inspection of the track, I came to two conclusions 1- better do it again to make certain he WAS on ace, that seemed too damn easy. 2- I think I'll double my convergence distance . Check back in a few minutes

*last edit* Yep, did it again, if you survive the heads on (a big if with the recoil-less AI, you should be fine. The second track I recorded is a bit longer and a lot more entertaining to watch (My aim was off, lol) but he still went down. I'll try and get the tracks uploaded from school tomorrow.

[dayglow 2]

Well the Finish campaign is really tough and next to impossible. Except for the I-16 you are totally outclassed. The Huri is extremely useless. It makes no sense, bombers go down no problem to the 8x.303's, but any plane seems to take at least 10sec of fire. I raked across a I-16 watching hits from one wing, across the fusalage and cockpit and then the other wing and it kept on going like nothing happened

Funny thing though, I was damaged by a headon (who would thunk that) and slowly losed my engine until I had to do a belly landing. Well no sooner than I had got out of my plane the enemy decided to strafe my plane. Well I watch 2 yaks strafe my plane and then plow into the ground because they couldn't pull up in time. It was hilarious watching that yak train just hit the ground 1 after another.

COLINMAN

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DayGlow @ Mar. 19 2003,06:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I raked across a I-16 watching hits from one wing, across the fusalage and cockpit and then the other wing and it kept on going like nothing happened <span id='postcolor'>

Yep, ok, there definitely does seem to be something odd about the I-16 and it's resisance (invulnerability?) to MG's. I set up a mission in a Hurri with a friendly I-16, and the only way I could down it was to shoot the pilot. If I used all my ammo on the fuselage, you wouldn't even see any damage on it! The weirdest part of it is, I wasn't even getting those "Hey stop that, are you insane? You're shooting at a Friendly!" messages. It's truly as if I wasn't damaging the aircraft at all.

[dayglow 2]

Same for laggs and yaks. No damage that I can see. Yet when I met up with some SB-2 bombers 3 seconds and the engines were burning and crashing. Something doesn't seem right.

COLINMAN

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Mar. 19 2003,04:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Shot him down in just over 1 minute, 30 seconds in a 1943 P-47 . (Ok, so it took 5 tries before I survived the head on pass....but after that it was surprizingly easy...and yes, he was on Ace). Unfortunately, something seemes to be wrong with my student webspace, so I can't upload the track. I'll probably be able to put it up tomorrow<span id='postcolor'>

Well then you are a better pilot than I. In a Bf109F4 I don't stand a chance. The Frederick isn't armed heavily enough to kill him on the first pass, and after that I can't shake him at all. This is at 1000 meters, incidentally.

[Badgerboy 0]

I like the sim, but I feel that they should have kept the release date back a month or so. There are MANY glaringly obvious bugs in the game, ranging from FM (No elevator authority on a Dora 9 at altitude! ), to engine sounds that fade in and out, or die all together.

I'm confident Oleg and co will patch the problems, but I still feel it was released before it was finished.

(Anyone noticed the AI of the bombers? The He 111's keep trying insane manoevers after dropping their bombs. I'm getting fed up with the team mates falling from the sky after pulling stall turns (Hammerheads to you lot)

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 19 2003,07:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ Mar. 19 2003,04:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Shot him down in just over 1 minute, 30 seconds in a 1943 P-47 . (Ok, so it took 5 tries before I survived the head on pass....but after that it was surprizingly easy...and yes, he was on Ace). Unfortunately, something seemes to be wrong with my student webspace, so I can't upload the track. I'll probably be able to put it up tomorrow<span id='postcolor'>

Well then you are a better pilot than I. In a Bf109F4 I don't stand a chance. The Frederick isn't armed heavily enough to kill him on the first pass, and after that I can't shake him at all. This is at 1000 meters, incidentally.<span id='postcolor'>

I think the trick is to get him on the defensive right from the get go - on the heads-on pass (until you become a really good shot in these situations this can be pretty suicidal, since the AI is a damn sniper heads on now). Here are the tracks I recorded - you'll see there wasn't much to it once I got him thinking defensively (the second track he almost got me at one point because I took to long to bring him down after the first pass)

First track. My guns set to 100 meters convergence. Very effective from 6 o'clock at close range, as you'll see, but totally ineffective heads on.

http://academic.algonquincollege.com/student....kin.trk

Second track. My guns set to 250 meters convergence

http://academic.algonquincollege.com/student....yn2.trk

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I like the sim, but I feel that they should have kept the release date back a month or so. There are MANY glaringly obvious bugs in the game, ranging from FM (No elevator authority on a Dora 9 at altitude! ), to engine sounds that fade in and out, or die all together.

I'm confident Oleg and co will patch the problems, but I still feel it was released before it was finished.

<span id='postcolor'>

Lol you wacky Euro's are never happy . You guys went bananas when the European release date was 16 days after the US, and now you wanted it held up for a longer time? I know what you mean though, and yes, I hope it gets fixed. Tonight I think I'll run some tests on the quick mission builder, seeing the effects of different MG's on different aircraft (not sure if I'll be able to do them all in one night ), record some tracks, and post anything weird in Oleg's ready room.

<span style='color:red'>*edit*</span> Word from Oleg on the first patch for FB:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Probably in the end of April we'll finish it.

Currently our main programmer is absent. His mom is second time got the insult. So he is in another city.

We can't make anything serious and copile then it without him.

Its one of ther reasons.

Another one reason - we still accumulate the info from the community that to try to include all things found in one patch.

Oleg Maddox

1C:Maddox Games

<span id='postcolor'>

And before anyone makes a crack about his English, how's your Russian?

[Aaron Kane 0]

The only player controlled flight models that I've personally had problems with are the P47 and FW190. The P47 goes into stalls far too easily, as does the FW190 (especially the A8 variant, from my experience)

I've also heard on the other forums that the Hurricane FM might be messed up, but I'm not sure.

Hmm... the end of April, eh... hopefully I'll have my cable or DSL hooked up by then, because I expect this patch to be a whopper

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aaron Kane @ Mar. 19 2003,18:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The P47 goes into stalls far too easily, as does the FW190 (especially the A8 variant, from my experience)<span id='postcolor'>

Speak for yourself, I was able to maneuver pretty well against Pokryshkin's P-39. Sure, it wanted to stall, but I kept it from doing so (force feedback pays off again)

[Aaron Kane 0]

*bursts into tears*

I admit it! I threw the bit about the P47 in there so nobody would notice my Luftwhining in defense of the FW190! Even with the Me262 available, I still love the FW190!

I really dont think the FW190's stall characteristics are represented realisticly. It should, according to several sources I've seen, stall in a completely different manner than what is currently seen. But perhaps those sources were false, I can never be sure. I just hope Oleg changes the FW190's stall characteristics in the upcoming patch.

[Badgerboy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(force feedback pays off again) <span id='postcolor'>

Indeed it does. You can ride the buffet, without going over the edge. Downside being large caliber cannon on IL2's. The joystick attempts to snap your wrist firing those monsters.

As for the Hurri FM. Nah, its fine. 109E's (It's main fighter opponent in the BoB), can outclimb it, outdive it, and outrun it, but it turns on a penny. As for the people who say you can't spin or stall it. Yes you can, but you have to work at it. The Hurricane was a very stable aircraft, and wasn't prone to spins or stalls.

I'll cut this short now, as my Hurri IIc flight is approaching a Luftwaffe airfield..... no air cover, and 7 Fw190's are in the process of landing....

Ho ho, eat Hispano bitches!

[Badgerboy 0]

All 7....

The entire flight came in line astern, and we worked over the 190's on approach. I got 2 on my run, and clipped a 3rd who was on finals. It must have been too much for him, for as he touched down, the gear collapsed, and he went skidding off the runway, catching fire. I came in so low, I saw the pilot bail and run for it! The rest of my flight picked off the others, and started to go to town on the parked aircraft.

By now the AAA was coming in thick, and Kapitan Khasanov went in hard and on fire, trashing a parked 110. No one walked away. By now, I ordered the flight to regroup and pull out, as everyone had some sort of hole in their plane. Denyakin went next, his prop windmilling, and severe damage to his tail. Getting some alt, he bailed coming down close to Russian lines. Status MIA.

Clearing the area, I sent the rest of the flight home, sticking with my no2 Privalov, who was suffering engine trouble. Finally, the trusty Merlin packed in, and I followed Privalov down as prepared to force land. At that point tracer started whizzing around, just as Privalov ground to halt, popping the canopy, and running for safety. I searched for the culprits... an armoured car and a panzer, still firing at my downed wingman! With only 2 or so seconds of ammo left I had to make my shots count. That I did, nailing the Panzer and the car, but not  before they drilled a nice hole through my elevators.

Checking Privalov was safe, I caught up with flight, landing triumphantly..... until I hit the brakes a little too hard taxing, flipping the Hurri onto its nose... Whoops

Sadly Privalov is still MIA. With a Gold Star and 16 kills to his name, he willbe sorely missed as my No2.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Aaron Kane @ Mar. 19 2003,21:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I admit it!  I threw the bit about the P47 in there so nobody would notice my Luftwhining in defense of the FW190!  Even with the Me262 available, I still love the FW190!<span id='postcolor'>

My two cents on the correctness of the flight models - First off, I think there is little chance that all of them will ever be 100% historically accurate. The sim dosen't account for factory defects, ect, and there is always a limitation to how much fidelity the PC can provide. For example, I just saw a post by Oleg where he warned that flight modeling physics don't apply beyond 10000 meters -in other words, you go beyond that, and you're in outer space as far as the sim is concerned.

I also am very skeptical of people who claim a flight model is off because it dosen't fly like they expected - especially when 90% of the complaints come from people who never flew a real aircraft - or like their favourite ww2 pilot described in his memoirs - face it, people exagerate, and you can't always recall accurately what happened in the heat of battle. The fact is, flight model data was taken from the manufacturers, and from Soviet, American, and German test centres - pretty good sources - and Oleg is an aeronautical engineer who used to work for the Russian Airforce - I'd say he knows what he's doing.

That said, he has corrected mistakes in the past, such as the Yak-1 flight model and the P-39 roll rate. He also replied with this to a post in the Il-2 forums about the flight model of the P-47:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">First of all just roll rate of the plane doesn't corresponds to the data from NACA. Say it is better than it was. ANd it will be corrected to the right digits in add-on.

Second - never think that one of your cool looking aircraft is the best of all. Think twice why Russians stopped import of them after tests and why finally they used for ground attack purpose not only in Russia...

Do you think US pilots created a lot of jokes about this plane from nothing?

<span id='postcolor'>

So the P-47 also will have it's rollrate fixed. Now the Fw-190....that in my opinion is a tough one to comment on, because allied pilots on the Western and Eastern fronts had very differing vews on it. British and American pilots had the outmost respect for the A and D models, whereas the Soviets had very little respect for them. That's probably because of most of the air combat taking place at low altitude on the Eastern front.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

Well, I finally shot the bugger down- it's incredible the difference making him break off that first pass makes. If you don't... well, I still havent won doing that I have the track, but no webspace to put it on. Could I email it to you, so you can check it out?

I have to say, I couldn't believe those tracks you made- he was such a pushover compared to my fights against him. But when I managed to make him break off right from the beginning, he did the same thing. Go figure

edit- I guess I could just PM you the code; whichever you want

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Mar. 20 2003,00:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, I finally shot the bugger down- it's incredible the difference making him break off that first pass makes. If you don't... well, I still havent won doing that I have the track, but no webspace to put it on. Could I email it to you, so you can check it out?

I have to say, I couldn't believe those tracks you made- he was such a pushover compared to my fights against him. But when I managed to make him break off right from the beginning, he did the same thing. Go figure

edit- I guess I could just PM you the code; whichever you want<span id='postcolor'>

Whichever way's easier for you . e-mail's itsfreezingcold@hotmail.com.

I couldn't believe what a pushover he was either, that's why I had to do it twice! . Just goes to show, as soon as you get a fighter pilot on the defensive, you've gone a long way towards beating him.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

That hotmail address isn't working  

edit: never mind, outlook express added a period to the end of the addy lol

[Tovarish 0]

heh...oops.

Ok, just cleared about a meg of space go ahead . If you want I can host your track so other people can check it out too, but It'll be up tomorrow. For some damned reason I cant upload to my webspace from home.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

That'd be great Tovarish at any rate, once I unfucked outlook the delivery went fine

[Tovarish 0]

Nice...love the killshot .

And yeah, Gunnery isn't my strongest point, but usually it isn't as bad as my second track shows. I'm blaming it on not being used to the "heavy" feel of the P-47

*edit* You know, till I watched that track, I had no idea what the "Gunsight Dimmer" on the German planes was...and it's not because I never flew the German types, I gave up on them after trying them and putting them off as not my type (with the exception of the F-4 maybe)...but I thought that was a very cool detail

[Tex -USMC- 0]

But of course you know, this game has me hooked like no other since... OFP lol