Common MP KOTH Issues

[MrBonesWildRide 0]

Noticed a few things from playing KOTH on the most populated server on Arma 3 that I don't really see discussed here...

 

The first thing is balance. I'm not sure if this is a server issue or Arma issue, but it would seem that people love OPFOR, a lot, and for good reason, the team always wins. Its not uncommon for the server to have 40 people stacked on OPFOR with 25 players a piece on the other teams. Considering the monetary bonus of ~10k at the end of the round, some people will even stack the team right before the game is up. I'm sure this has nothing to do with the armor values of the Spec Ops class, since well armor is pretty negligible, but what I have noticed is that it's always the good players who stack OPFOR while people generally screw around on the two other teams. Last night I was force switched to NATO and I rage quit after getting in a chopper with 6 different pilots and crash landed 6 different times in a row. I'm not making this up. I lost my shit. The balance issue also always guarantees that OPFOR wins because you'll never have more players than them in the target area. Something has to be done.

 

The second most common issue is the disappearing weapon after a revive. I have no idea why this happens but today everyone was dropping their binoculars in hopes of culling the bug. Losing your primary after a revive sucks. You end up running around like a headless chicken trying to find dead bodies you can loot...

 

Which brings me to the third issue, premium weapons. It sucks you can't pick these up. I realized the hard way after I purchased and equipped a premium weapon at base that I couldn't pick it back up if I switched it out for something else. Then there's the "advertising" that comes with wielding one. You literally have a pop up that comes up in the middle of your screen to buy it if you're using it, usually at the worst fucking time, but no where in the purchasing menu does it indicate that the weapon you're about to buy comes from a DLC you don't own. Then there's also the issue of the screen going slightly dark and squares popping up all over it when you're using a premium gun you don't own. This usually indicates that the annoying pop up is on its way. Or maybe the pop up comes first. I don't know, I stopped using those weapons. I guess it sucks the game forces you to buy a DLC so you can use a gun you found on a dead body, a gun that the owner probably didn't even own.

 

Fourth issue, getting burned by a fire you can't even see. Can't recollect how many times some lousy pilot Allah Akbar's into one of the green towers on KOTH and then you die in a floor below because of a rooftop fire that you can't even see. The fire damage also amazes me, it would seem that according to Arma 3 bonfires are deadlier than 9mm rounds.

[road runner 4344]

Is this a KOTH Dev Build server issue you're talking about, or a Dev Build issue itself? 

[MrBonesWildRide 0]

4 hours ago, road runner said:

Is this a KOTH Dev Build server issue you're talking about, or a Dev Build issue itself? 

 

Unsure, I suppose team balancing would be a server-side issue, but being burned from behind walls, weapons disappearing after revives, and literally annoying popups would be a build issue? 

 

This is the section of the forum where we yell at devs about bugs, right?

[road runner 4344]

31 minutes ago, MrBonesWildRide said:

 

Unsure, I suppose team balancing would be a server-side issue, but being burned from behind walls, weapons disappearing after revives, and literally annoying popups would be a build issue? 

 

This is the section of the forum where we yell at devs about bugs, right?

Not really, this is the section that relates to the development build of the game, which is why I was asking are you using the dev build version of the game or not, so as best to redirect you on your issues.

[MrBonesWildRide 0]

1 hour ago, road runner said:

Not really, this is the section that relates to the development build of the game, which is why I was asking are you using the dev build version of the game or not, so as best to redirect you on your issues.

 

Ah, definitely the wrong section then. Where do we go to talk bugs in the current version of the game? Got one more to add to that list of mine, fire selector resetting to default (semi-auto) after a revive. 

[dragon01 902]

KOTH is not even a BI-maintained game mode. So this definitely is the wrong place to talk about it, because those are KOTH-specific problems and thus need to be fixed by KOTH devs. About the only thing BI could fix here is the fact that KOTH allows DLC weapons to be equipped to non-DLC owners, and that's only because it's in their own interests to make sure premium content actually is premium (the only place ownership requirement is waived should be Eden editor, IMO).

[MrBonesWildRide 0]

2 hours ago, dragon01 said:

KOTH is not even a BI-maintained game mode. So this definitely is the wrong place to talk about it, because those are KOTH-specific problems and thus need to be fixed by KOTH devs. About the only thing BI could fix here is the fact that KOTH allows DLC weapons to be equipped to non-DLC owners, and that's only because it's in their own interests to make sure premium content actually is premium (the only place ownership requirement is waived should be Eden editor, IMO).

 

Frankly I'm all for that, but how can you say that crashed helicopters burning you from behind a wall isn't a BI issue? That or the disappearing weapon glitch on revives or the fact your fire selector defaults to semi after a revive? I suppose server balance and the incorporation of DLC weapons can be blamed on KOTH devs, but the fact that you get a glitchy advert while using DLC weapons is definitely on the guy who coded that in, is it not?

[dragon01 902]

The advert is supposed to be annoying. You shouldn't be using the weapons at all, if you do it without buying the DLC (due to cheating or a glitch), you get told to buy it. The only legit case where you can use the DLC weapons without having the DLC is when you're making a mission which uses them, but doesn't give them to the player. There, you may need to, for example, record the flight path for a DLC helo, in which case the adverts are not a big problem.

 

Fire damaging you from behind a wall is an issue, but is that a problem for anything besides KOTH? Also, remember that in reality, being in a building with a burning, crashed wreck on top will, in most cases, kill you. IMO, BIS should prioritize issues that affect people who play vanilla game modes. As for the fire selector, if it were up to me, it'd start on "Safe", just like in reality. For realistic scenarios, full auto is of limited utility anyway.

[MrBonesWildRide 0]

3 hours ago, dragon01 said:

The advert is supposed to be annoying. You shouldn't be using the weapons at all, if you do it without buying the DLC (due to cheating or a glitch), you get told to buy it. The only legit case where you can use the DLC weapons without having the DLC is when you're making a mission which uses them, but doesn't give them to the player. There, you may need to, for example, record the flight path for a DLC helo, in which case the adverts are not a big problem.

 

Fire damaging you from behind a wall is an issue, but is that a problem for anything besides KOTH? Also, remember that in reality, being in a building with a burning, crashed wreck on top will, in most cases, kill you. IMO, BIS should prioritize issues that affect people who play vanilla game modes. As for the fire selector, if it were up to me, it'd start on "Safe", just like in reality. For realistic scenarios, full auto is of limited utility anyway.

 

Once again, I AGREE that having DLC weapons is annoying and they should be removed! 

1. You can't pick up 3/4ths of the dropped weapons.

2. You can't pick back up your own weapons.

3. You can't see which weapons are DLC in the menu when you buy them.

 

SO YES, I AGREE, KILL THE LOOPHOLE AND GET RID OF THEM!

 

Either that or make them only available for purchase if you own the corresponding DLC but allow people to loot them from bodies, without the annoying pop ups, which I frankly feel is a very cheap way of annoying people into to purchasing them and gives others an unfair advantage.

 

This also really doesn't look good for BIS when you factor in the weapon disappearing bug, that's when it really feels like a cheap gimmick into forcing people to purchase the DLCs out of sheer frustration in probably the most popular multiplayer game mode next to the RP one.

[MrBonesWildRide 0]

Furthermore you stated, "but is that a problem for anything besides KOTH?"

 

Currently there are 2144 players playing on the top 20 servers of Arma 3. 

Of these 502 are playing KOTH. 

This translates to 23.4% of the player base from a sample size of 20. 

The majority of the rest, 1126, or 52.5%, are playing the Altis Life RPG.

While most the remaining 24.1% are playing another form of RPG.

 

My point is that KOTH is a very popular game mode and you shouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

[Greenfist 1863]

Have you posted these KOTH concerns to its forums? https://forums.arma.su/ You might an official response from the devs there.

[MrBonesWildRide 0]

1 hour ago, Greenfist said:

Have you posted these KOTH concerns to their forums? https://forums.arma.su/

 

Nope, closest thing I could find linked to their work was this website: http://www.armakoth.com/index.html

 

Will definitely crosspost this thread.

 

Thank you.

 

Link to crosspost: https://forums.arma.su/forum/main-category/main-forum/king-of-the-hill/45028-common-arma3-koth-issues

[dragon01 902]

No matter how popular KOTH is, it's not a BIS-made gamemode and thus none of their concern. Maybe in ArmA4, considering how popular it is. But you don't see BIS fixing issues specific to, say, RHS or CUP (though at times I wish they did!). They do consider feedback from mod authors, but mod issues do not take priority over vanilla issues, no matter how popular the mod is. Mods are supposed to design around vanilla content and limitations and KOTH needs to fix its own problems. 

 

If the "disappearing weapon" bug really is the vanilla bug (which is not a given), it needs to get looked at. The rest are KOTH issues and need to be fixed within KOTH. Considering BIS' half-hearted approach to DLCs, they're unlikely to implement DLC protection other than the popup. Don't expect them to remove any protection, though, compared to real measures you get in other games, an annoying popup is trivial. If you don't want it, don't use DLC weapons.

[fn_Quiksilver 1636]

Since BI has done virtually no MP playable content that people play regularly (aside from zeus) I would say support for community mp modes, especially the popular ones, should definitely be a concern for them.

[MrBonesWildRide 0]

11 hours ago, dragon01 said:

No matter how popular KOTH is, it's not a BIS-made gamemode and thus none of their concern. Maybe in ArmA4, considering how popular it is. But you don't see BIS fixing issues specific to, say, RHS or CUP (though at times I wish they did!). They do consider feedback from mod authors, but mod issues do not take priority over vanilla issues, no matter how popular the mod is. Mods are supposed to design around vanilla content and limitations and KOTH needs to fix its own problems. 

 

If the "disappearing weapon" bug really is the vanilla bug (which is not a given), it needs to get looked at. The rest are KOTH issues and need to be fixed within KOTH. Considering BIS' half-hearted approach to DLCs, they're unlikely to implement DLC protection other than the popup. Don't expect them to remove any protection, though, compared to real measures you get in other games, an annoying popup is trivial. If you don't want it, don't use DLC weapons.

 

Agree, however also disagree. KOTH is kind of too big to fail. The frustration players experience playing that game mode reflects on Arma 3 as a whole. Take me for example, when I made this post I had no idea I was playing a mod. I thought this was Arma 3 issues. Your regular player wont go harassing two message boards trying to get to the bottom of who is to blame for this and that, he will simply put down the game and move on to something more user friendly which translates to lost business in the long run. The two teams should definitely coordinate some efforts to iron out the issues. It's a win/win situation, BIS makes more money, and the KOTH team gets to put stuff on their resume, maybe even go on to work for BIS.

 

As for the "disappearing weapon" bug, I still don't have a clear answer on whose fault that is. 

 

Paywall is essentially BIS for the way it's implemented with blue pop-ups of death. KOTH team could however iron out the issue by finding a solution to allow only DLC owners to purchase DLC weapons in game and let everyone pick them up off of dead bodies, then run a post game advertisement like they currently do to purchase the DLC. This would be the ideal solution.  

 

Getting burned by invisible fire is definitely on BIS.

 

Team balance is definitely on the KOTH team.

 

5 hours ago, fn_Quiksilver said:

Since BI has done virtually no MP playable content that people play regularly (aside from zeus) I would say support for community mp modes, especially the popular ones, should definitely be a concern for them.

 

Essentially this, the least they can do is work in close coordination with the KOTH team to try and address the issues that ~20% of their player base have to deal with. Not all of us fancy RPG mods. A vast majority of us are players who crossed over from Battlefield after EA stopped supporting mods.

[dragon01 902]

Picking DLC weapons off bodies will not be possible and BIS wouldn't appreciate KOTH trying to add it. This one will not be fixed, except by buying the DLC. KOTH is big, but if it did that, BIS would also lose money, this time from DLCs (and I'm willing to bet that if KOTH found a solution to circumvent the protection, others could and would copy it). So don't count on being able to loot DLC weapons from bodies. KOTH can and should prevent you from buying them in-game if you don't have DLC, which should reduce their prominence. 

[DancingCorpse 5]

Here's my take on the issues from experience.

 

On 12/18/2016 at 5:05 PM, MrBonesWildRide said:

The first thing is balance. I'm not sure if this is a server issue or Arma issue, but it would seem that people love OPFOR, a lot, and for good reason, the team always wins. Its not uncommon for the server to have 40 people stacked on OPFOR with 25 players a piece on the other teams. Considering the monetary bonus of ~10k at the end of the round, some people will even stack the team right before the game is up. I'm sure this has nothing to do with the armor values of the Spec Ops class, since well armor is pretty negligible, but what I have noticed is that it's always the good players who stack OPFOR while people generally screw around on the two other teams. Last night I was force switched to NATO and I rage quit after getting in a chopper with 6 different pilots and crash landed 6 different times in a row. I'm not making this up. I lost my shit. The balance issue also always guarantees that OPFOR wins because you'll never have more players than them in the target area. Something has to be done.

 

Unfortunately game balance is not an ArmA issue but a KOTH/Community/Server issue.  The KOTH mode has made it glaringly obvious that OPFOR has an advantage over the other teams.  They usually have a closer/more direct road route to the AO, and OPFOR has skin loadouts with better armor with certain skins that have the Fatigues with armor, the Carrier Rig with armor and an upgraded helmet with better armor.  Players obviously take advantage of this, and servers fail to nip the problem in the bud early in the game modes or they just lack the power to fix the problem.

 

On 12/18/2016 at 5:05 PM, MrBonesWildRide said:

The second most common issue is the disappearing weapon after a revive. I have no idea why this happens but today everyone was dropping their binoculars in hopes of culling the bug. Losing your primary after a revive sucks. You end up running around like a headless chicken trying to find dead bodies you can loot...

 

I'm not sure if this issue is specific to KOTH, but I can say I have not experienced the issue in other modes.  Half my guts want to tell me that it is an engine issue though.  The other half thinks it's an issue with cleanup scripts in KOTH.  The third half thinks it might be a combination of both.  (Yes, I have 3 halves, so what, wanna fight about it?)

 

On 12/18/2016 at 5:05 PM, MrBonesWildRide said:

Which brings me to the third issue, premium weapons. It sucks you can't pick these up. I realized the hard way after I purchased and equipped a premium weapon at base that I couldn't pick it back up if I switched it out for something else. Then there's the "advertising" that comes with wielding one. You literally have a pop up that comes up in the middle of your screen to buy it if you're using it, usually at the worst fucking time, but no where in the purchasing menu does it indicate that the weapon you're about to buy comes from a DLC you don't own. Then there's also the issue of the screen going slightly dark and squares popping up all over it when you're using a premium gun you don't own. This usually indicates that the annoying pop up is on its way. Or maybe the pop up comes first. I don't know, I stopped using those weapons. I guess it sucks the game forces you to buy a DLC so you can use a gun you found on a dead body, a gun that the owner probably didn't even own.

 

In my opinion, this is a KOTH issue.  The buy menu needs to make it clear what weapons are DLC and what are not, which it fails miserably to do.

 

On 12/18/2016 at 5:05 PM, MrBonesWildRide said:

Fourth issue, getting burned by a fire you can't even see. Can't recollect how many times some lousy pilot Allah Akbar's into one of the green towers on KOTH and then you die in a floor below because of a rooftop fire that you can't even see. The fire damage also amazes me, it would seem that according to Arma 3 bonfires are deadlier than 9mm rounds.

 

This is an engine issue.  I experience this all the time in game modes other than KOTH (happened to me on Exile just the other night with a dead vehicle that had no burning effects on it but still burned me to death from about 10 feed away.

[MrBonesWildRide 0]

On 12/20/2016 at 5:02 AM, dragon01 said:

Picking DLC weapons off bodies will not be possible and BIS wouldn't appreciate KOTH trying to add it. This one will not be fixed, except by buying the DLC. KOTH is big, but if it did that, BIS would also lose money, this time from DLCs (and I'm willing to bet that if KOTH found a solution to circumvent the protection, others could and would copy it). So don't count on being able to loot DLC weapons from bodies. KOTH can and should prevent you from buying them in-game if you don't have DLC, which should reduce their prominence. 

 

Well then KOTH really shouldn't implement DLC weapons or at least divide the servers into DLC and non-DLC versions, and BIS shouldn't implement cheap tricks to force people to buy their DLCs. Anyways since BIS started a 50% sale I just picked up the DLC bundle and Apex to kill this buggy feature in their game.

 

But the fact remains, for non-DLC owners there's a blue pop up in the middle of the game... Seriously, that's adware tier stuff, and denying the fact makes you seem like a BIS sales rep. 

[dragon01 902]

You should be grateful they're doing that. What other game allows you to use DLCs without paying for them? None. Really, in any other game, you wouldn't be able to play on servers with DLCs enabled, you wouldn't be able to try out the weapons and you'd probably still get ads anyway (I see them all over the place in other games, just not during missions). If you got a DLC weapon through a glitch in, say Battlefield, chances are you'd get banned for "stealing" and the exploit patched in short order. Not to mention you don't actually need those DLC equipment for anything, while they do look good, there are weapons and vehicles which are quite close in capabilities to them (a bit less so with Apex, but it's a full expansion. How many games you seen do an "expansion" recently?). 

 

BIS essentially allows you to use a weapon or vehicle you haven't paid for, only at the price of a slightly intrusive prompt reminding you that no, you're not entitled to use that particular content. Really, this is the least intrusive and problematic DLC system I've ever seen. Try out a recent Total War game, any multiplayer game with microtransactions or a recent installment of good ol' Tropico and you'll come to appreciate just how nice BIS devs are. IMO, they are being too lenient (as your own example handily demonstrates) with their DLC policy, but it's their prerogative.

[MrBonesWildRide 0]

15 hours ago, DancingCorpse said:

Unfortunately game balance is not an ArmA issue but a KOTH/Community/Server issue.  The KOTH mode has made it glaringly obvious that OPFOR has an advantage over the other teams.  They usually have a closer/more direct road route to the AO, and OPFOR has skin loadouts with better armor with certain skins that have the Fatigues with armor, the Carrier Rig with armor and an upgraded helmet with better armor.  Players obviously take advantage of this, and servers fail to nip the problem in the bud early in the game modes or they just lack the power to fix the problem.

 

While you're right, I still think the armor bonus is negligible, especially if you're using anything over 5.56, although they should improve the armor stats on other teams, especially since armor does play a major role in pistol combat. I still maintain that the only reason people stack OP4 is because they have the greatest chance of winning matches. 

 

15 hours ago, DancingCorpse said:

I'm not sure if this issue is specific to KOTH, but I can say I have not experienced the issue in other modes.  Half my guts want to tell me that it is an engine issue though.  The other half thinks it's an issue with cleanup scripts in KOTH.  The third half thinks it might be a combination of both.  (Yes, I have 3 halves, so what, wanna fight about it?)

 

I've been trying to figure this out myself, and I think this might be an engine issue. Some line of code is lost on a revive respawn. KOTH devs have been working on this bug for over 6 months now. It really makes me wonder. 

 

15 hours ago, DancingCorpse said:

In my opinion, this is a KOTH issue.  The buy menu needs to make it clear what weapons are DLC and what are not, which it fails miserably to do.

 

Agreed, but BIS should use a better system of encouraging new players to purchase DLCs. A pop up ad is probably the worst thing they can do, and it almost makes me want to put a team together and create an adblock mod.

 

15 hours ago, DancingCorpse said:

This is an engine issue.  I experience this all the time in game modes other than KOTH (happened to me on Exile just the other night with a dead vehicle that had no burning effects on it but still burned me to death from about 10 feed away.

 

It's really ridiculous how deadly fire is in this game.

[MrBonesWildRide 0]

22 minutes ago, dragon01 said:

You should be grateful they're doing that. What other game allows you to use DLCs without paying for them? None. Really, in any other game, you wouldn't be able to play on servers with DLCs enabled, you wouldn't be able to try out the weapons and you'd probably still get ads anyway (I see them all over the place in other games, just not during missions). Not to mention you don't actually need those DLC equipment for anything, while they do look good, there are weapons and vehicles which are quite close in capabilities to them (a bit less so with Apex, but it's a full expansion. How many games you seen do an "expansion" recently?). BIS allows you to use a weapon you haven't paid for, only at the price of a slightly intrusive prompt reminding you that no, you're not entitled to use that particular content. Really, this is the least intrusive and problematic DLC system I've ever seen. Try out a recent Total War game, any multiplayer game with microtransactions or a recent installment of good ol' Tropico and you'll come to appreciate just how nice BIS devs are.

 

Grateful for what? I didn't buy the DLCs because I wanted them, I bought them to make the game fair for me. Fair so I could pick up weapon drops after a bug eats my weapon on revive. This is the literal definition of extortion, and I hope BIS is paying attention. That's not how you keep a customer happy, or loyal, and brand loyalty, especially in gaming, is what sinks or keeps a ship afloat. There will always be the next big thing around the corner, especially in FPS, especially when people are sick and tired of EA/Activision shenanigans, so BIS should try and keep the grass looking greenest on their side of the yard. Also you should probably stop acting like a PR rep for BIS, you're literally channeling customer frustration on their brand. 

[dragon01 902]

And you're making a fool of yourself. You're playing a custom game mode, encountering a bug which has been (as far as I've seen) KOTH-exclusive, then complaining about the game "not being fair". It's not BIS' fault. In fact, it's not even their bloody business if KOTH works like a piece of crap, no matter how many people play it. I'm not acting like a sales rep, but someone who has actually plays ArmA3 as what it is meant to be.

 

BIS even acknowledging KOTH, them letting you get away with using DLC weapons without purchasing them at all (or, for that matter, letting mission makers include those weapons without owning them) and their overall conduct is, to me, a welcome change from moneygrubbing ways of most other companies of that size. Sure, you paid for the game, so you're entitled to some things. But did the game come with KOTH pre-installed? No. So you're not entitled to it. You could say you're entitled to a bug-free SP campaign, training missions and vanilla MP modes. In this case, however, the only people you can bug is KOTH devs, who are, BTW, under no obligation to actually fix anything (since their product is free), same as any mod. The most you can hope for is the popularity of the mod making the team feel obliged to fix the bugs, but it has to come from them. And if you don't like how KOTH runs, don't use it. There's plenty of other modes to play on and since ArmA3 Units was introduced, you can also find yourself a clan with minimum hassle (I heard it's a better experience than public servers).

 

If BIS ever starts shipping KOTH with any ArmA installment, then it'd be on them to make sure it's working right. Until then, you're out of luck (that said, given the popularity, it's a safe bet that ArmA4 will have something of that sort). 

[MrBonesWildRide 0]

4 hours ago, dragon01 said:

And you're making a fool of yourself. You're playing a custom game mode, encountering a bug which has been (as far as I've seen) KOTH-exclusive, then complaining about the game "not being fair". It's not BIS' fault. In fact, it's not even their bloody business if KOTH works like a piece of crap, no matter how many people play it. I'm not acting like a sales rep, but someone who has actually plays ArmA3 as what it is meant to be.

 

Says the fanboy who got caught off guard when he was compared to a public relations representative. Tell me, friendo, how exactly is ArmA3 meant to be played? 

 

PS - If you bothered reading the thread you would notice I came here not knowing KOTH was a mod, that I acknowleged some of those bugs are on the KOTH team, and that I even made a thread on their forum. Work on communication PR guy, telling someone they should be grateful for something is a good way to piss them off. 

[dragon01 902]

Well, now you know KOTH is a mod, you can stop bugging people here. I'm not a BIS employee, just a longtime fan (and even not that longtime, I've started with ArmA2w played OFP only recently). If you think I'm a fanboy, you should meet some players who's been there since OFP. They'd jump straight to telling you that KOTH is not "proper ArmA" at all.

 

As for "what is was meant to be", ArmA series is, at heart, a military simulator meant for tactical gameplay. It's been so since Operation Flashpoint. Slow-paced tactical action, realistic scenarios and large-scale combined arms gameplay is what the RV engine was designed to do and what ArmA3, as conceived, was meant to be. Check the SP campaign (not Apex) for a concise example. Most hardcore players and the series' biggest fans play that way. Sure, you can fight against zombies, have a casual gamemode like KOTH, an RPG like the much-maligned life mods, or any of the other things that people have made for ArmA over the years, but BIS already has its hands full maintaining the "core" of the game - which is the hardcore combined arms simulator.