Missile attack in yemen

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Nov. 07 2002,05:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you going to tell me that Sweden providing Nazi Germany with tons of iron ore for its war machine is not a historical fact?<span id='postcolor'>

You are right. It is a historical fact. However, Sweden was not in a position to say no to Germany. They would have been run over just like Norway. But it was a high price to pay for neutrality. Sweden did also do a wee bit more than providing Germany with steel. They HARBOURED norwegian resistance fighters, sent food to Norway, built houses for people whom had lost their houses in the war, arranged transport for norwegian prisoners in the concentration camps in Germany when the war finally ended and a lot more. Norwegians are very fond of the Swedes because of that. My own grandfather was transported back from Sachzenhausen concentration camp by swedes. He loved them for it! So do I!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you going to tell me that there weren't any northern europeans who joined the wehrmacht to help with the "jew problem"?<span id='postcolor'>

No I'm not going to tell you that. But the picture is you draw is not balanced. People from all over Europe joined german forces - so it's not specifically a scandinavian shame! You forget to make a balanced picture! Most people in Norway and Denmark were naturally not happy about being occupied. Most people also fought back.

[barcode6 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Nov. 07 2002,05:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Nov. 06 2002,20:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Did you skip the history class?<span id='postcolor'>

Are you going to tell me that Sweden providing Nazi Germany with tons of iron ore for its war machine is not a historical fact? Are you going to tell me that there weren't any northern europeans who joined the wehrmacht to help with the "jew problem"?<span id='postcolor'>

It wasn't just Sweden and people that were under the threat of invasion.  You'd be suprised who collaberated with the Nazis

[Garritos 0]

Why has this debate come up now all of the sudden?? is it because the EU is increasingly anti-US and tends to put their every move under the microscope?? Why didnt Europe cry out when Slick Willy lobbed a couple cruise missiles into Afganistan to divert attention from his intern's BlowJob? The US was not even at war then. I can tell you for sure that the Taliban didnt give him permission to blow the shit out of those training camps.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And this is not American bashing.<span id='postcolor'>

erm, from the tone of Denior's original post, american bashing was the only direction this thread could have gone. I clicked this thread to discuss the effectiveness and tactics employed with modern UAV's. It seems they are going to be a large part of the armies of the future, and are need for OFP.

Instead, I stumble upon the same old song and dance. BUSH=Hitler blah blah blah. Some of you fellas need to start hanging out on the human rights message boards! This is a forum dedicated to a war sim, so lets treat it as such. and while we are at it lets grant the Canadians their wish and airlift the country to Europe. w/o the largest unfortified border in the world they may have to buy more WW2 brittish frigates to defend themselves

[Longinius 1]

"Are you going to tell me that Sweden providing Nazi Germany with tons of iron ore for its war machine is not a historical fact? Are you going to tell me that there weren't any northern europeans who joined the wehrmacht to help with the "jew problem"?"

This has allready been answered above. What they failed to mention however is that most people that joined the Wehrmacht didnt even know about the treatment of the Jews. The concentration camps were not common knowledge at this time. Not even most Germans knew what happened in these camps.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Nov. 06 2002,22:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">in my opinion, the behavior of the northern european countries when they were faced with the Germans was utterly despicable and contemptable.  They sent their resources to them, a large number enlisted in the wehrmacht itself, and they seemed to have little problem rounding up the ones the Germans didn't like.<span id='postcolor'>

Sweden was one of the few countries in the world that offered a safe harbour to jews and other people persecuted by the Germans. Denmark & Norway were under occupation, they did the best they could fighting off the Germans. As for the resources, USA was Germany's number 1 exporter until Perl Harbor.

This is however not the topic of the discussion, so let's get back on track. Also note that even if Sweden had done something bad yesterday, it does not mean that it is OK for the US to do something today. One crime does not justify another.

[Major Fubar 0]

History always shows the winners as the "good guys".

Can we get over this USA vs. Europe thing? As has been pointed out, Europe is a continent, not a single country, so saying all of Europe holds a certain opinion is ridiculous. England is part of Europe, and their PM has his nose firmly wedged up GWs bum...

America is the current world superpower, and has acted with questionable wisdom and dubious morals in certain areas in the last 20 years. But that's what superpowers do. Heck, that's what all countries do when they can get away with it.

I think what annoys most people about the USA is their policy of interfering in countries all around the world and basically overstepping it's boundaries all the time. (I still cringe when I hear the US president referred to as "the leader of the free world"). This doesn't mean the whole world hates Americans, they just dislike US foreign policy. But many Americans refuse to acknowledge their countries mistakes, and assume the whole world hates them because they are jealous. This simply is not the case. (I have no problem criticing my own country, Australia, in regards to some of their policies, particularly in relation to Papua New Guinea. You can't bury your head in the sand and ignore the wrong things your country and government do, excusing everything in a misguided display of patriotism).

If America had never involved itself in affairs in the Middle East, do you really think S11 would ever have happened...simply because the US is a Christian (i.e. non-Musslim) country?

Anyway, don't sweat it...no empire lasts forever. In 20 years time China will proably be the #1 world superpower, and then people will criticise their foreign policies...and will say "gee, I wish America was still running the world".  

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Nov. 06 2002,23:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But it was a high price to pay for neutrality.<span id='postcolor'>

This is part of the point I was driving to. look at the consequences. now.. does anyone want to play "neutral" with the Al Queda global networkl??? I'm not trying to bring about any shame for any members of those countries NOW. I'm merely pointing out that an effort to act "neutral" with something as vile as the Nazi's or Al Queda may offer you regrettable distinction in recorded history, especially if Al Queda decides to attack your country simply because you are infidels. Don't think that silence or sympathy for Al Queda will buy you any of their graces. that is a regunant thought. This discussion came about after the Aussies suffered greatly in the Bali attack.

[SantaMania 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Nov. 07 2002,16:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Nov. 06 2002,23:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But it was a high price to pay for neutrality.<span id='postcolor'>

This is part of the point I was driving to. look at the consequences. now.. does anyone want to play "neutral" with the Al Queda global networkl??? I'm not trying to bring about any shame for any members of those countries NOW. I'm merely pointing out that an effort to act "neutral" with something as vile as the Nazi's or Al Queda may offer you regrettable distinction in recorded history, especially if Al Queda decides to attack your country simply because you are infidels. Don't think that silence or sympathy for Al Queda will buy you any of their graces. that is a regunant thought.<span id='postcolor'>

I think u are overestimating Al Quada.... In no way you can compare Al quada to a superpower, yet alone a country.

Because you are not assasinating people doesnt mean you have a neutral oppinion to terrorism... its called western civilisation, its what we stand for... innocent until other prooved.

What CIA and Bush the monkey is doing right now, is against all what the western world believes in right now, he is using terrorism against terrorists.

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Nov. 06 2002,23:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If I am not mistaken, werent a lot of American germans sympathetic to Nazi Germany?  Wasnt there a book written recently about a major american corporation that collaborated with the Germans?  Throwing stones about what Sweden may have done when it had a rather large and real threat of invasion is a little strange coming from someone who had it's own collaborators... but had less of a reason to have a fear of what would happen if they DIDNT.<span id='postcolor'>

umm.. IBM sold them some computing hardware before the Nazi's were rampaging around Europe and the purpose certainly wasn't clear at that time. poor analogy.

[DarkLight 0]

1--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 05 2002,231)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Nov. 06 2002,19:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 05 2002,00:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yemen (CNN) -- In a CNN interview, a top Pentagon official called a missile strike that killed six suspected al Qaeda members in Yemen<span id='postcolor'>

Has anyone noticed this?<span id='postcolor'>

What about the suspected Nazis killed at Normandy? WHO WILL SPEAK FOR THEM?

Semper Fi<span id='postcolor'>

What the hell are you talking about?  Explain please, what Nazis?  The ones during the second world war?

Come on, please don't tell me you compare a world war with an attack on a couple of suspects...

Whoops, just realized that you were just messing around

[DarkLight 0]

4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Nov. 05 2002,234)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"Very impressive knowledge you have...  Good to see that some people know a lot about Europe's history... "

Not at all to belittle that post, but most of that is common knowledge to a large part of the Nordic population and probably also to most Europeans.<span id='postcolor'>

I bet most of the Nordic people knew that, i certainly didn't

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SantaMania @ Nov. 07 2002,10:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Because you are not assasinating people doesnt mean you have a neutral oppinion to terrorism...<span id='postcolor'>

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that don't fall into the trap where you think if you are easy on al queda, you will be exempted from their crusade.

[PitViper 0]

OK, now back to questions closer to the thread topic. there is a certain amount of people who seem to claim that our war with Al Queda is a sort of international policing action.  if this is international policing, why aren't "international police" like INTERPOL leading the effort? (frankly, I don't know much about that organization). Should we be sending cops to Yemen to arrest these guys then rather than soldiers?  Should have our involvement in Afghanistan been a gaggle of police officers rather than military divisions? Is low-level warfare against innocents automatically considered international crime? These are all essential questions imo. the problem is: no one wants to argue these rudimentary questions when the rest of the arguments are all based off of them.

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Nov. 07 2002,16:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 05 2002,23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Nov. 06 2002,19:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 05 2002,00:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yemen (CNN) -- In a CNN interview, a top Pentagon official called a missile strike that killed six suspected al Qaeda members in Yemen<span id='postcolor'>

Has anyone noticed this?<span id='postcolor'>

What about the suspected Nazis killed at Normandy? WHO WILL SPEAK FOR THEM?

Semper Fi<span id='postcolor'>

What the hell are you talking about?  Explain please, what Nazis?  The ones during the second world war?

Come on, please don't tell me you compare a world war with an attack on a couple of suspects...<span id='postcolor'>

Tools / Internet Options / Advanced / Browsing / Sarcasm Detection / Enable

Just tryin' to help.

 <=== For Santa

Semper Fi

edit: Phantom smilies suck.

[DarkLight 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 06 2002,17:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Nov. 07 2002,16:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 05 2002,23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DarkLight @ Nov. 06 2002,19:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ Nov. 05 2002,00:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yemen (CNN) -- In a CNN interview, a top Pentagon official called a missile strike that killed six suspected al Qaeda members in Yemen<span id='postcolor'>

Has anyone noticed this?<span id='postcolor'>

What about the suspected Nazis killed at Normandy? WHO WILL SPEAK FOR THEM?

Semper Fi<span id='postcolor'>

What the hell are you talking about?  Explain please, what Nazis?  The ones during the second world war?

Come on, please don't tell me you compare a world war with an attack on a couple of suspects...<span id='postcolor'>

Tools / Internet Options / Advanced / Browsing / Sarcasm Detection / Enable

Just tryin' to help.

<!--emo&  <=== For Santa

Semper Fi<span id='postcolor'>

Yeah i just realized, i edited my message right before i saw this one

[E6Hotel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Nov. 07 2002,16:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Should we be sending cops to Yemen to arrest these guys then rather than soldiers?  Should have our involvement in Afghanistan been a gaggle of police officers rather than military divisions?<span id='postcolor'>

I propose a re-structuring of the Marine Corps fireteam:

(1) Fireteam leader

(1) Automatic rifleman

(1) Assistant automatic rifleman

(1) Rifleman

(1) Prosecuting attorney

Semper Fi

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Nov. 06 2002,23:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Nov. 06 2002,17:33)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A good way is not to make enemies that want to kill you.<span id='postcolor'>

ya.. like the Aussies right?<span id='postcolor'>

Not like the Aussies!

They made enemies... it's obvious.

[advocatexxx 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Nov. 07 2002,08:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">In 20 years time China will proably be the #1 world superpower, and then people will criticise their foreign policies...and will say "gee, I wish America was still running the world".  <span id='postcolor'>

Lol yeah, that's if they resort to cannibalism to feed their starving soldiers. China's communist regime prevents them now and will continue to prevent them from becoming a technologically-advanced, economic powerhouse and a military giant.

[advocatexxx 0]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/831489.asp?0cb=-21424124

However, the attack touched on one of the pillars of U.S. foreign policy since 1976 — the ban on assassinations that was first instituted by President Ford, and then reiterated in 1981 by President Reagan through Executive Order 12333 and by each of his successors.

In a nutshell, it declares, “No person employed by or acting on behalf of the United States government shall engage in, or conspire to engage in, assassination.â€

Broadly speaking, assassination is defined as the murder of a targeted individual for political purposes. But it takes on a different meaning during wartime, when most killings of the enemy are justified unless carried out in a “treacherous†manner.

After the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks — which were blamed on bin Laden’s al-Qaida network — President Bush declared a global war on terrorism.

A month later, The Washington Post reported Bush approved an intelligence “finding†instructing the CIA to engage in “lethal covert operations†to destroy bin Laden and his al-Qaida organization.

At the time, White House and CIA lawyers asserted the move was constitutional because the ban on political assassination does not apply during wartime.

Just thought I'd post some relevant points.

[PitViper 0]

Wouldn't killing one of Al Queda's leaders be like killing a General rather than a head of state???

[Longinius 1]

This can't be a war though since the people the US are illegal combatants according to the US. There needs to be two sides to a war, right?

[PitViper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Nov. 07 2002,12:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">This can't be a war though since the people the US are illegal combatants according to the US. There needs to be two sides to a war, right?<span id='postcolor'>

ok. So they're not fully fledged soldiers and they're not international criminals. What are they?

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PitViper @ Nov. 07 2002,16:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Nov. 06 2002,23:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But it was a high price to pay for neutrality.<span id='postcolor'>

This is part of the point I was driving to. look at the consequences. now.. does anyone want to play "neutral" with the Al Queda global networkl??? I'm not trying to bring about any shame for any members of those countries NOW. I'm merely pointing out that an effort to act "neutral" with something as vile as the Nazi's or Al Queda may offer you regrettable distinction in recorded history, especially if Al Queda decides to attack your country simply because you are infidels. Don't think that silence or sympathy for Al Queda will buy you any of their graces. that is a regunant thought. This discussion came about after the Aussies suffered greatly in the Bali attack.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh come on.....as if US stood up against Germany before Pearl Harbour?

No, US insisted on staying neutal and not getting involved. Of course you had no other choice but to go to war in the end.

That is hypocrasy in my mind!

My point is that the rocket attack in Yemen neatly follows a tradition US has had ever since at least wwII. You do whatever you feel is nessecary - and most of the time people end up dead - like in Chile for example!

I do feel it is nessecary to fight terrorism, but one also has to look at all the factors and causes for poverty and domination of the third world. Do you believe you can fight poverty and unjustice with weapons. Do you believe you can subjugate people in order to make them comfortable in their daily lives? If you don't maybe it's time to make things a bit more uneven. All in all it's not about religion. Religion is just a matter of organizing people who have nothing in common except poverty and the same religious faith. But it's not the cause! Why couldn't US and the rest of the western world try to do something right for a change? Make people believe in you - don't drop bombs on their heads - start with changing your silly and hatefull administration in Washington!

[Balschoiw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ok. So they're not fully fledged soldiers and they're not international criminals. What are they? <span id='postcolor'>

They are people who have the right to be put in front of a court. Nothing like you and me UNTIL your guilt is proven.

Have I missed that ? Where is the proof ?

Did you even notice that germany is the first country to have an AQ suspect in front of court ? It is not the US. It is germany. If he was in the US he probalbly would face another treat, but we still know how to keep basic rights up, where others lost their head and a lot of democracy.

By now the incident can be called "murder". Nothing else.

[PitViper 0]

So you believe Al Queda is simply an international criminal syndicate?  How is INTERPOL doing against this threat then? I guess we can't use the military at all against the Al Queda right?