Hostage situation in Moscow

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Oct. 23 2002,21:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">NOTHING JUSTIFIES TERRORISM.

Hate my country- fine. Attack my country's troops- go ahead, that's their job (and dont be surprised if you get your ass shot off in the process), and in a few years I'm gonna be able to take my own shots at you cowardly sons-of-bitches. But NEVER intentionally attack my country's civilians. They don't hurt anyone. They aren't the ones making policy, or dropping bombs- hell, most of the time they aren't even aware of your existence, much less are they opposed to you. And if you do, you aren't a freedom fighter, you aren't a soldier, you are just a criminal.<span id='postcolor'>

What ever, it's not like the US is any different than the terrorists it fights. You really think the States have no innocent blood on their hands.

[Antichrist 0]

Damn!!! I wanted to go to Moscow this winter for couple of weeks..... but now it doesn't look like such a good idea...........

There is also a possibility that this hostage crisis is some kind of decoy, which means that other terrorist groups might be trying to blow up Nuclear Plants, Chemical plants etc. .....

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Whether or not Russians commited crimes there, THAT IS NO REASON TO ATTACK MASSES OF RUSSIAN CIVILIANS!!! <span id='postcolor'>

Just as I was saying.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">all you prooved to us was that the soviet regime was terrible. I agree. But modern russia is not the same. <span id='postcolor'>

Of course it isn't the same, changes have been made but more still need to be made. During the struggle in Chechnya, the Russians kept out western reporters, the reporters had to get in via the Muslim fighters. The Russians didn't want any bad press to leak out.

My point was: this is a leftover from the old Soviet regieme. As I said, alot of military types are having a hard time adjusting from the secretive ways of old to the days of new where information is (supposed to be) free.

If you compare Russia with the rest of the western world, you will see that Russia is totally different and is still having alot of trouble converting to the new democratic/capitalist systems after seven decades of hardline communism. Alot of Russian analysts think that it will take a three or more generations of Russians to get Russia up to par with the west, both economically and socially.

So there!

Tyler

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Oct. 24 2002,04:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My point was: this is a leftover from the old Soviet regieme. As I said, alot of military types are having a hard time adjusting from the secretive ways of old to the days of new where information is (supposed to be) free.

If you compare Russia with the rest of the western world, you will see that Russia is totally different and is still having alot of trouble converting to the new democratic/capitalist systems after seven decades of hardline communism. Alot of Russian analysts think that it will take a three or more generations of Russians to get Russia up to par with the west, both economically and socially......However, alot of people in the military system today are people who grew up under the communist system, where there was no accountability for war crimes and no news (other than government propaganda) came out of war zones. The commanders are used to doing as they see fit. Combine this with Soviet conscripts who don't care about any government cause and are only there because they had no choice.

<span id='postcolor'>

Hardly an excuse for acting the way they do in Chechenya!

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hardly an excuse for acting the way they do in Chechenya! <span id='postcolor'>

Whatever.

It wasn't an excuse, but more of a reason as to how it happened.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Oct. 24 2002,05:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hardly an excuse for acting the way they do in Chechenya! <span id='postcolor'>

Whatever.

It wasn't an excuse, but more of a reason as to how it happened.<span id='postcolor'>

OK - It's an explanation - a fairly good one too!

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Oct. 24 2002,04:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What ever, it's not like the US is any different than the terrorists it fights.  You really think the States have no innocent blood on their hands.<span id='postcolor'>

Did I pull the fucking trigger?? Should I have to worry about my school bus blowing up because of what my country did 20 years ago? You completely missed the point Mr. Brainiac, sir. NOTHING justifies terrorism. If a Canadian (Just as an example) lined my family up and shot them, do I go and detonate a bomb in downtown Toronto? Let me answer that for you: NO!!! If anyone has an issue with my government, go to Camp Pendleton- there you will find several thousand Marines waiting to process any complaints.

Killing civilians on purpose is not going to get it done.

You can temporize, cite equivalency, and try and paint me as a hypocrite all you like, but you can NOT dispute the core facts of my statement (which you might actually agree with if you could just deactivate your anti-US rhetoric for a few seconds).

[Cyanide 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Oct. 23 2002,22:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree, but then again you could just as well say the Russians have no reason to kill Chechenian civillians in their homeland/or region. Thats terror too!

One could easily say that chechenyan soldiers should kill the russian murderers too.....!

But I really hope they both stop killing eachother<span id='postcolor'>

I absolute hate people like you who put on a clever face and start talking about something they have no idea about.

[ralphwiggum 6]

ppl. calm down...stop slinging muds at each other.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cyanide @ Oct. 24 2002,05:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

First of all, I don't hate you - and you shouldn't hate me! Don't get personal - we are only discussing!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">people like you who put on a clever face and start talking about something they have no idea about.<span id='postcolor'>

Please explain this to me: do you know anything about the conflict in Chechenya? Because if you do, as I do - you are entitled to have an opinion. You don't actually have to be russian or chechenyan in order to have something to say.

If you are not directly taking part in or affected by the conflict - should you just keep your mouth shut? Why do you think we have organisations like Amnesty etc? Could it possibly be because the rest of the world in the name of humanity should care? Do you believe the UN is created to achieve cooperation to avoid conflicts and indifference?

Do you know anything at all - do you have the right to have an opinion?

Do you care at all?

[Chill 0]

Please realise I am totaly agaisnt the killing of any one!! The only point is that Russia/USA/Israel kill in the name of peace and any one else kills they are labeled as Terrorists!

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chill @ Oct. 24 2002,05:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Please realise I am totaly agaisnt the killing of any one!! The only point is that Russia/USA/Israel kill in the name of peace and any one else kills they are labeled as Terrorists!<span id='postcolor'>

That's not what you said before- it seems to me all you do is post inflammatory comments and then retreat to a backup position. Real cute.

[brgnorway 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chill @ Oct. 24 2002,05:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Please realise I am totaly agaisnt the killing of any one!! The only point is that Russia/USA/Israel kill in the name of peace and any one else kills they are labeled as Terrorists!<span id='postcolor'>

During the Gulf war the kurds in north Iraq were called "Freedom fighters" by US officials. Of course, US (and Nato) wanted the kurds to revolt.

Curiously enough after the war the very same kurds were labeled as "terrorists" by US. Oh, they sort of forgot that they really shouldn't piss off the their ally the turks who provided airbases for US warplanes. And as we all know the turks are not too fond of the kurds who dream of a possible Kurdistan.

[Cyanide 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (brgnorway @ Oct. 23 2002,23:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you care at all?<span id='postcolor'>

You mean your opinion?

No I don't then.

Those people in the theatre have Chechnya's freedom at the last place on their list of priorities.

How could anyone expect their demands to be met after such actions?

But I suppose it's just great for Russia because those mercenary (yes, they are no "freedom fighters") scum are showing their true face and the West would hopefully stop whining about our actions in Chechnya, on Russian territory.

And also, I somehow cannot remember Western media referring to Taleban or the IRA as freedom fighters. So why are the Chechen scum not terrorists then? Double standards now, eh?

People who go against defenceless civilians are terrorists.

[Cyanide 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chill @ Oct. 23 2002,23:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Please realise I am totaly agaisnt the killing of any one!! The only point is that Russia/USA/Israel kill in the name of peace and any one else kills they are labeled as Terrorists!<span id='postcolor'>

Like I said, you have no idea what you're talking about. Full stop.

[brgnorway 0]

3--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cyanide @ Oct. 24 2002,063)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You mean your opinion?

No I don't then.

<span id='postcolor'>

I couldn't care less!

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So why are the Chechen scum not terrorists then? Double standards now, eh?

People who go against defenceless civilians are terrorists.

<span id='postcolor'>

Have you seen me defend the chechenyans in the theatre?

I have no double standards concerning this! On the other hand I don't use the "terrorist" word simply because it's not a good one. It's much too political.

There's no denying though that Chill has a point. It's allways the strongest part that are able to define something to be good or bad. Terrorsm is definitly bad. Read Michel Foucalt and you'll understand what I'm talking about.

[Chill 0]

WTF you guys going on about? All i did was back up why the Russians are getting attacked in their homeland and why the USA had 9/11!! Number one if you go and invade countries like Chechnya and kill/rape people there, you have to reap what you have sewn! Same with USA! They bomb Baghdad and kill 200,000 people on the Highway of Death and then expect to walk away with out any reprecussions?

One of you said "2 wrongs dont make a right" Well get Russia and USA/Israel to practice that theory!!

I do not support any one dying and killed, but if you want to live by the sword you die by the sword!

[Cyanide 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chill @ Oct. 24 2002,01:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Number one if you go and invade countries like Chechnya<span id='postcolor'>

"You have no idea" Mk Vii

Chechnya has always been part of Russia. Is that clear?

[akm74 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you want to live by the sword you die by the sword!<span id='postcolor'>

yep, and it exactly what chechen scam will learn from now.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and kill/rape people there<span id='postcolor'>

you really have no idea what you are TA. The chechen womans didn't have a shower for mounths.

[Chill 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cyanide @ Oct. 24 2002,08:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chill @ Oct. 24 2002,01:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Number one if you go and invade countries like Chechnya<span id='postcolor'>

"You have no idea" Mk Vii

Chechnya has always been part of Russia. Is that clear?<span id='postcolor'>

Ok by your comments Romania,Ukraine,Poland,Chez,Hungary and so on were they part of Russia too? Do you know your history and geography?I dont think so!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Chill @ Oct. 24 2002,07:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">WTF you guys going on about? All i did was back up why the Russians are getting attacked in their homeland and why the USA had 9/11!! Number one if you go and invade countries like Chechnya and kill/rape people there, you have to reap what you have sewn! Same with USA! They bomb Baghdad and kill 200,000 people on the Highway of Death and then expect to walk away with out any reprecussions?

One of you said "2 wrongs dont make a right" Well get Russia and USA/Israel to practice that theory!!

I do not support any one dying and killed, but if you want to live by the sword you die by the sword! <span id='postcolor'>

Well those two lack comparability. The US may also have caused casualties but that rather unintended whereas russia is calculating this as a "screening" method, kill the young civillians you definetly hit one of the other potential figther. I wouldnt even compare the russian ways of the dealing with Tschechnyia with those of Israel. The power of surpression is simillar but Israeli soldiers probably dont rape and comitt sadistic crimes as the russians do. TO me Chechnians are Resistance fighters, some may be terorists but not all. I am seriously dissapointed by the russians and shocked by their brutality. So I hope the russian soldiers withdraw.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AKM74 @ Oct. 24 2002,08:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and kill/rape people there<span id='postcolor'>

you really have no idea what you are TA. The chechen womans didn't have a shower for mounths.<span id='postcolor'>

THis is way of seeing things is what I call communistic leftovers; the russians were never good at seeing their own behaviour critically. But I dont blame it on them but on their historical education. One indicator for this is that Stalin's grave is still glorified and has its place in the centre of beautiful Moscow. What do you think, why dont we germans create a big propaganda-tomb for Hitler? In terms of cruelties against humanity the two were quite competitive.

Same with Eastern Germans, after the war fell they were easily accessible to (Nazi) propaganda cause they grew up with (communistic) propaganda and never learned to see things critically and interpret the circumstances of history themselves.

In russia nothing has changed, and I am pretty sad to see that officers being charged for "cruel rape and murder of young girls" were found not guilty from the russian court because of the political pressure.

I am considering russia as one of the greatest problem zones right now and I am realy not amused!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AKM74 @ Oct. 24 2002,08:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">you want to live by the sword you die by the sword!<span id='postcolor'>

yep, and it exactly what chechen scam will learn from now.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and kill/rape people there<span id='postcolor'>

you really have no idea what you are TA. The chechen womans didn't have a shower for mounths.<span id='postcolor'>

You know what Mr.. ModMAker

Go fuck yourself!

[pathfinder 0]

This all is very sad and I wish it would be resolved peacefully, but when Islamic fundamentalists are involved it always will end horribly. History speaks for itself.

[Necromancer- 0]

k... quit the flaming.

I believe there are Al Qeada in Chechnya and the Russians want to remove them with their brutal force. The Chechens don't have the means to counteract Al Qeada. Actually I believe the Chechens are supported by Al Qeada.

Chechnya... 2nd Afghanistan?