Weapon Mass and Encumbrance Relation Test

[agent()()9 18]

How are you guys able to view the Marksmen DLC weapon statistics?  Are you looking at the config files somehow?  The files for them are encrypted as .ebo files, so I can't extract them.  Besides that, the config viewer in the editor shows missing/incorrect values.  For example, weapon mass isn't shown and the dispersion for all assault and sniper rifles are the same (0.00029).

[stormhawkv 19]

How are you guys able to view the Marksmen DLC weapon statistics?  Are you looking at the config files somehow?  The files for them are encrypted as .ebo files, so I can't extract them.  Besides that, the config viewer in the editor shows missing/incorrect values.  For example, weapon mass isn't shown and the dispersion for all assault and sniper rifles are the same (0.00029).

 

I wasn't able to extract them either. I determined the size of the trunk of a car and put the DLC guns into it one after the other. I have no raw data for dispersion values but I did some testing with the Mk-1 EMR and it's not outperforming other 7,62mm rifles any more. Its weight however remains unchanged - still 160 mass units.

[agent()()9 18]

Yeah, I figured BI wasn't going to do much more tweaking of the weapons, but I'm surprised at your test results. 

 

I was reading that BI might unencrypt the .ebo files in the near future once the Marksmen DLC isn't so new/exclusive.  Once they do, they'll be normal .pbo files that can be extracted and viewed for their configs.  I guess we'll have to wait and see.  The only information we can use besides your clever trunk trick, is the statistics bars from the virual arsenal.

[issen 13]

How are you guys able to view the Marksmen DLC weapon statistics?  Are you looking at the config files somehow?  The files for them are encrypted as .ebo files, so I can't extract them.  Besides that, the config viewer in the editor shows missing/incorrect values.  For example, weapon mass isn't shown and the dispersion for all assault and sniper rifles are the same (0.00029).

 

They are in the config viewer. Mass can be found in the "WeaponSlotsInfo" tab, which is 160 for the Mk-I EMR for example. The actual dispersion can likewise be found in the tabs - or rather subclasses - for the fire modes, so the dispersion (and rate of fire, recoil, etc.) for single fire is found under the "Single" tab (for the Mk-I EMR it is 0.00058).

[EricJ 759]

First off Mass as defined in the config is a reflection of physical volume (how much space it actually takes up and is a point value, (not a weight value), not so much actual weight. For a weapon's weight, the actual mass defined in Object Builder (through the Geometry LOD) defines actual weight of the object (in kg). So a weapon with a (config) entry annotation of 20 doesn't have some weird weight formula to represent actual kg. Now if I was building a model of a FN P90, I would create a Geometry LOD, and then highlight all the objects, and then on the bottom left, and then ascribe (for example, and not a reflection of the real weight) a bullshit value for this example, a weight of 3.2 kgs. In the Inventory screen at the bottom the very bottom slider is the total mass (weight) that you are carrying at that time. Fire off some rounds, drop some gear, and you'll see it go down as you're losing weight. For the uniform, Vest, and Backpack, the slider bars indicate actual physical volume and the amount of space taken up by all that gear, not any weight limit, such as "Supply20", which is 20 points of "Mass" that the configs have to show how much you can carry and defines physical volume that the object takes up. So for this example, I can carry two 5.56 magazines (a config mass of 8) as well as a suppressor with a mass=4; and that's it (total 20 points). Or i could carry an object with a Mass of 20 that weighs 4.5 kg, which doesn't reflect the uniform's load capacity, as within ArmaLogic I can "carry" that item because the mass rating (by the config) is equivalent to that uniform, and so on. That's why gear has "Supplyxxx" values, to show actual volume that the gear can carry and not a weight limit per se.

[Jackal326 1181]

Updated values for my suggestion on more realistic weapon mass.

 

NATO

P07 - 20

*SNIP*

"Mass" as calculated for the game is the weight of the object in question (in KG), multiplied by 22. At least, that is the long and the short of it. Did you revise a new formula for your suggestions, or is it just based on "this weapon is a 9mm pistol so as a baseline its 20, this is a .45 cal so its 30" i.e. "gamey logic"

 

A "P07" (AKA Walther P99) weights approx. 630gram (or .63kg), as such "Mass" = 0.63x22 = 13.86 - I'm not sure what the actual ingame mass value for the P07 is

- I just checked, it seems that BI used the same "gamey" logic as the P07 has a mass value of 20 lol, but so long as all weapons/items/gear etc. use the same formula, I don't really see an issue (apart from not having separate volume/weight values, but I doubt we'll ever see the two separated).

[x3kj 1247]

 

apart from not having separate volume/weight values, but I doubt we'll ever see the two separated

With the ability to modify stamina via script now it should be possible to use the vanilla "mass" as volume only and define a custom weight token to every weapon that impacts a custom stamina formula.

[St. Jimmy 272]

With the ability to modify stamina via script now it should be possible to use the vanilla "mass" as volume only and define a custom weight token to every weapon that impacts a custom stamina formula.

If that's so then I've high hopes for modded stamina/weight system. Could that allow light items (not just weapons but everything) that have high volume and other way around?

[stormhawkv 19]

"Mass" as calculated for the game is the weight of the object in question (in KG), multiplied by 22. At least, that is the long and the short of it. Did you revise a new formula for your suggestions, or is it just based on "this weapon is a 9mm pistol so as a baseline its 20, this is a .45 cal so its 30" i.e. "gamey logic"

 

A "P07" (AKA Walther P99) weights approx. 630gram (or .63kg), as such "Mass" = 0.63x22 = 13.86 - I'm not sure what the actual ingame mass value for the P07 is

- I just checked, it seems that BI used the same "gamey" logic as the P07 has a mass value of 20 lol, but so long as all weapons/items/gear etc. use the same formula, I don't really see an issue (apart from not having separate volume/weight values, but I doubt we'll ever see the two separated).

 

I have already explained the reasons behind my suggestion. They are a combination of "A is heavier than B" and real world weight x10 for lb or x22 for kg. The problem is the non-existent proportion between the guns. However, the whole discussion is null and void after the latest changes as they are obviously not interested in improving the system. A 7,62mm rifle has now twice the mass of a 6,5mm rifle and an anti-material rifle is three times as heavy as an anti-tank missile launcher. If you don't believe me download the release candidate and compare the default classes with each other.

[chortles 263]

I'm not sure if there's even a way to achieve light items with high volume with only a single stat... whereas DayZ standalone has separate weight and 'volume' (size in grid squares) stats due to using a grid-based inventory menu.

[Jackal326 1181]

I'm not sure if there's even a way to achieve light items with high volume with only a single stat... whereas DayZ standalone has separate weight and 'volume' (size in grid squares) stats due to using a grid-based inventory menu.

The more I think about it, the more I think OFP had (read: has) a better inventory system with its "slot-based" almost grid-square based a la DayZ. Hey, OFP is still current almost 15 years on.

[St. Jimmy 272]

The more I think about it, the more I think OFP had (read: has) a better inventory system with its "slot-based" almost grid-square based a la DayZ. Hey, OFP is still current almost 15 years on.

Well this is a thing that I disagree a lot. Slot system is too limited so it takes away a lot of the freedom. Arma 3 has one of the best inventories. Only if there had been both weight and volume it would be close to perfect. IMO slot based inventory has been the biggest mistake in DayZ.

Slot/grid inventory might be the easy and good alternative in mil-sim (that Arma 3 isn't anymore) but for sandbox it isn't.

[chortles 263]

Well this is a thing that I disagree a lot. Slot system is too limited so it takes away a lot of the freedom. Arma 3 has one of the best inventories. Only if there had been both weight and volume it would be close to perfect. IMO slot based inventory has been the biggest mistake in DayZ.

What I don't get is how you propose to simulate both weight and volume if not via a slot-based inventory, which already achieves that for DayZ, while the existing system works just fine for a (however-flawed) one-stat system. What does your two-stat system look like?

(Slot-based inventory systems can support adjusting of item size -- i.e. "dynamic change of item size where factors like numbers of attachments and their sizes define current item size in inventory. In other words you can carry stripped down AK and all it's attachments in backpack with tradeoff of it's readiness for combat" -- and/or rotating the item to fit if item placement was uneven, so I wouldn't hold the lack of either against the idea of a slot-based inventory.)

[St. Jimmy 272]

What I don't get is how you propose to simulate both weight and volume if not via a slot-based inventory, which already achieves that for DayZ, while the existing system works just fine for a (however-flawed) one-stat system. What does your two-stat system look like?(Slot-based inventory systems can support adjusting of item size -- i.e. "dynamic change of item size where factors like numbers of attachments and their sizes define current item size in inventory. In other words you can carry stripped down AK and all it's attachments in backpack with tradeoff of it's readiness for combat" -- and/or rotating the item to fit if item placement was uneven, so I wouldn't hold the lack of either against the idea of a slot-based inventory.)

Give item volume and weight parameters. Both volume affects the bar like the mass does currently in Arma 3. Volume and weight gets increased the more stuff you attach to a gun for example. You can still restrict that some items like missiles don't fit in vest just like currently even if the volume allows. Weight is separate value that has efect on stamina. Inertia could watch either volume or mass or their relation to calculate inertia.

The slot thing only brings mini tetris game that everyone can pass, just move items around the inventory. Slot based can only have 1x1, 1x2, 2x1, 3x1, 7x4 and so on. Can be more complex shaped but still the end value is very simple. There are only very few values so there's no difference in volumes between a bullet and 50 bullets inside the inventory or a pen and can of beans. With volume values you can make a difference between those bullets or with pen and can of beans. Only limit there is then how many 0 you can have after (,) or (.) so there's a lot more variance compared to a very simple slots.

Arma 3 style inventory with simple values is more flexible in a way how much items inventory can contain. Then it's just more about the actual weight because overpacking yourself and you've big disadvantage in stamina. Arma 3 just doesn't have that weight value which would be awesome addition so here would be no need to give sniper a bigger value than a missile launcher just for balance reasons...