Women in uniform

[nuddicrous 0]

I know that some militaries such as that of the USA bars women in active combat duty, but *shrugs* they have the luxury of being able to do that. My warm, fuzzy army of choice certainly doesn't bar women in such roles, and can't, especially with the low recruiting numbers that Canada's been experiencing. I would definitely love to see such a model. I'm just not sure how different a woman in the army would look from a man *shrugs* most of the women I've met in the CF have been pretty rugged, strong women who could snap me in half with their hands. Or at least the NCO women.

Suffice it to say... women in army good. Definitely good. So they should be in ofp too. And they will be.

[Gollum1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Miss_Cleo @ Oct. 01 2002,01:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">we could use some civilian kiddie models for variety as well<span id='postcolor'>

Can you imagine what kind of sick levels some assholes could make with kid models?

And the min.age would have to be raised, and do you know ANY other game (besides Fallout) that allows you to kill kids? It would be all over the news.

[Gollum1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Oct. 02 2002,10:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">not historically. Women served extensively in the Red Army during WW2<span id='postcolor'>

during WW2.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Gollum1 @ Oct. 04 2002,23:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Oct. 02 2002,10:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">not historically. Women served extensively in the Red Army during WW2<span id='postcolor'>

during WW2.<span id='postcolor'>

and? Your point being?

Look, the lady just wants some female models that arent blatantly sexist. Can noone provide those?

[Spitfire 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Gollum1 @ Oct. 05 2002,00:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And the min.age would have to be raised, and do you know ANY other game (besides Fallout) that allows you to kill kids? It would be all over the news. <span id='postcolor'>

Jagged Alliance 2, as another example.

The conversation is drifting a bit offtopic, but anyway:

Violence in a form or another is no big deal anymore in so called "entertainment" in which you could include computer games as well as movies. Well, OK, GTA3 was banned in Australia because it was possible to do 'sexual violence' in the game. That's only an individual case and not that common.

You have to remember: being able to do something is not the same as endorsing or fomenting violence. Introducing child units to OFP would add to the immersion, not urge to kill them for fun.

[Night181 0]

i would kill them for fun..........

*total attitude change* i mean immersion....yes immersion.......

[miss_cleo 0]

hey.. its realistic. there are children under arms all over the world. there are kids in combat all over africa, asia and the middle east. havent we all seen the african boys with m1 carbines, or 12 year old kids waving kalashnikovs at every middle eastern "lets kill everybody" rally file footage the news plays everytime somebody in the mid east stubs their toe?

how about unarmed civil kiddies for refugee escort missions or protect the town type stuff? maybe you go for total realismand you want a "execute civilians as a reprisal for partisan attacks" mission? just for variety, maybe.

i mean i can only see nogova's guy in the brown leather jacket, guy in the gray sweater, and various butch ladies get killed so many times....

[Prospero 1]

Hmmm just spotted this thread.

Nothing nicer than a nazi in a suspender belt.

Prospero

[Eviscerator 0]

easy solution, just slap nada's face on, raise the pitch of the voice and you have one rather butch female

[-TU--33ker 0]

I've seen a documentary about female gurillas in columbia on TV a few moments ago.

they served in all positions: medics, soldiers, radio operators, and even as squad leaders!

maybe making female resistance fighters could be a good way to include women in a fighring role.

[xmurderx 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Eviscerator @ Oct. 05 2002,09:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">easy solution, just slap nada's face on, raise the pitch of the voice and you have one rather butch female <span id='postcolor'>

it doesnt work, and if you know how please let me know. I dont think anyones ever been able to figure out how to interchange female faces between females in the editor.

[Hit_Sqd_Maximus 0]

Here is a woman soldier

[IceFire 0]

It would be unrealistic, the US Army doesn't allow women in combat roles.

Neither does the USMC, or the French Foreign Legion at all.

Why would you even care about putting women soldiers into OPF anyways? It is just a game that does not need to be all "equal" and stuff.

Not only that, but then you get into the problem of women models having an unfair advantage because of their smaller figure, and therefore "target". They would be a smaller target. No fair.

[Gollum1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Night181 @ Oct. 05 2002,01:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i would kill them for fun..........<span id='postcolor'>

I rest my case...

[Gollum1 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Oct. 05 2002,00:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and? Your point being?<span id='postcolor'>

OFP is 1985, not 1942.

And the Sovs were very desperate (I´m not saying that the female soldiers didn´t fight, but it would be unrealistic to have them in a modern day conflict in any large extent.).

Now that you mention it, I think the Germans had a bomber squadron called the "Nachthexen" (=nightwitches), which was very successful and feared by the Russians during WW2.

Experiences with mixed male/female units have shown that if, in the heat of battle, a man sees a woman taking fire he often INSTINCTIVELY protects that female, even if it would put the mission in jeopardy.

Hence, single-sex units are the most effective.

Where the hell am I going with this?

No female soldiers in OFP, please.

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Gollum1 @ Oct. 05 2002,22:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tex [uSMC] @ Oct. 05 2002,00:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and? Your point being?<span id='postcolor'>

OFP is 1985, not 1942.

And the Sovs were very desperate (I´m not saying that the female soldiers didn´t fight, but it would be unrealistic to have them in a modern day conflict in any large extent.).

Now that you mention it, I think the Germans had a bomber squadron called the "Nachthexen" (=nightwitches), which was very successful and feared by the Russians during WW2.

Experiences with mixed male/female units have shown that if, in the heat of battle, a man sees a woman taking fire he often INSTINCTIVELY protects that female, even if it would put the mission in jeopardy.

Hence, single-sex units are the most effective.

Where the hell am I going with this?

No female soldiers in OFP, please.<span id='postcolor'>

Dude, get your historical facts straight.   The "Night Witches" were Russian female combat pilots who made up 3 regiments.  

Info at:

http://pratt.edu/~rsilva/witches.htm

http://www.faa.gov/avr/news/Nexen.htm

http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/theatres/tow_tbfm.htm

Soviet women also served a wide variety of combat roles in WWII.  Some of their top snipers were women as well.

Finally while the basic OFP is 1985, the mods made for OFP can be of almost any time period within the last 100 years and that can include women combat soldiers.

Also my old Army Reserve unit is a combat heavy engineer unit (front line construction unit with secondary combat engineering capability). *Most* of our female soldiers were not wimps and performed combat training just fine (although some certainly didn't belong there so the system isn't perfect).

Also if my buddy is in trouble, I don't care if they are male or female, but I'm going to risk my life to save them because they would do the same for me. Most soldiers I know are the same way. So that arguement doesn't stand up very well.

However I do believe that women in combat or front line support units should pass certain physical criteria that is bit higher then that of rear area support units.

As other mentioned women have seen combat all over the globe. Some saw combat and were captured during the Gulf War for example and currently (as someone else mentioned) women are taking important combat roles in the FARC and ELN guerilla movements in Colombia. Some of these women are probably fighting directly against U.S. Special Forces, DEA, and the Counter-Narcotic Colombian Special Forces that they train.

From what I've read on these female soldiers they fight and lead as well as any male soldier or officer.

I think the data is fairly clear that while men are generally stronger and more aggressive, there are women who are more then capable of becoming excellent soldiers.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Night Witches from the 588th Night Bomber Regiment.

[miss_cleo 0]

well i support the idea of female soldiers for ofp... the US has large numbers of female soldiers in support roles, often puting them on or near the immediate frontline, and so does almost every other western power...

if US forces were ever engaged in a real ground war it is inevitable that female soldiers would be in combat due to there proximity to the front.. not to mention less conventional attacks like airborne assaults or guerrilla attacks which are often directed at an army's rear areas and support personel..

i know that the US army has female soldiers that are jump qualified and its only a matter of time before women start flying air combat missions, so women will definatley be in the line of fire.

the russians in wwII had female snipers and tank crew as well as pilots.

the IDF has large numbers of female personel as well, how long do you think they would be in non combat roles if the shit really hits the fan in israel??

[-TU--33ker 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Miles Teg @ Oct. 05 2002,23:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think the Germans had a bomber squadron called the "Nachthexen"<span id='postcolor'>

there was a very famous female WW2 pilot in germany.

Beate Uhse started some sex shops and a mailorder company after the war

she died last year.

[cassandra 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ Oct. 05 2002,20:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It would be unrealistic, the US Army doesn't allow women in combat roles.

Neither does the USMC, or the French Foreign Legion at all.

Why would you even care about putting women soldiers into OPF anyways?   It is just a game that does not need to be all "equal" and stuff.

Not only that, but then you get into the problem of women models having an unfair advantage because of their smaller figure, and therefore "target".    They would be a smaller target.   No fair.<span id='postcolor'>

1) I didn't see any rules or guidelines about ofp modifications being strictly based on the us army or french legion or being gender specific. bis had the initial intention of making their game american and russian based, and perhaps even gender specific *shrug*.. but now people are making all kinds of modifications for ofp that stretch the life and boundaries of the game to create new scenarios for all to play, I don't see a point to saying outright "no, we can't have that" based on actual historical events.. and it seems that women served in many wars and still serve in many forces all around the world including today. besides, it wasn't history that made me purchase this game.

2) you said it, it's just a game (though it seems more than just a game). one that can include near limitless possibilities/addons. including female troops.

3) wouldn't smaller bodies be realistic since you seem to care about realism? I think your priorities about what is fair and what isn't are a bit messed up, besides.. it's not that much of a difference to the point we're talking about pixies or fairys, women come in all shapes and sizes.

4) on note of equality, this isn't a feminist movement.. just a very simple request so people can at least have the option in mission creation.

and may I once again quote major fubar; IYDLIDDI (if you don't like it, don't download it)

simple fact is, you may not want it, but others do (me being one of them )

women in uniform - the fight against pessimism *cough*

[GodofGunnies 0]

I want to say that THIS IS AN OPINION, NOT A STATEMENT OF MALICIOUSLY PERCIEVED FACTS. Please remember this. Also, I am not sexist. Bear with me.

OFP is a realistic game. It is a combat simulation. That's what it started out as, and that's what it should remain. Some recent addons in Resistance have created an unrealistic atmosphere, like the magazine capacity issues with the weapons, blah blah. However, this game still must remain realisitic. Women are not, have not, and I pray to God will not be in Combat for the US. My reasons are my own, and are shared by several of the militarily keen in the world. I know multiple women who can A) Beat me up or B) Outshoot me. That's not the point. The point is, that since this game is based on teh realism issue, female soldiers should NOT be included in the game, unless under the resistance side. Two, it is also unfair to the males who play this game, as was already stated. A SMALLER TARGET IS UNFAIR. Six inches shorter makes all the difference in the world. A body shape makes all the difference in the world. Narrower torso, right? If you're firing properly, you aim for the TORSO. If you get hit two inches from the belly button in this game, it's the same as if you get grazed. You get hurt, and probably die. For a female, that grazing wouldn't happen, because the body shape is such that that extra inch or so width of the abdominal area is not there. If you want females, make 'em butch. Not as a sexist thing, but as a fairness issue. Besides. I like women that can whoop my ass. =D

Oh. And if you don't agree with the women in combat issue, and want to argue about it with me, please don't do it in this thread. Just PM me, or something. It'd be inconveniant for thread readers to have to sort through the bullshit posts we'd (or I, anyway) would inevitably post.

[cassandra 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (GodofGunnies @ Oct. 06 2002,18:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If you want females, make 'em butch.  Not as a sexist thing, but as a fairness issue<span id='postcolor'>

I agree, I'm sure rigorous military training would build on body structure anyway.. and don't forget, a basic military uniform is not skin tight, atleast I don't think so.

I'm no expert on such things.. but I'm not oblivious either.

I enquired about joining the adf(raaf) two years ago, and met a quite tall female tank driver (in camo uniform, might I add) who didn't seem petite at all. in the same office, I saw a male soldier who was shorter and had quite a thin body structure in comparison. fact is, people come in all shapes and sizes. the only position I couldn't apply for were in base defence (which is the raaf's small army), but weapons training was still something every new recruit took part in. the army however has a different approach. the raa, raaf and ran all seem to mock eachother due to the fact they have totally different ideas on how to run everything. if I applied to the raa, I would have definately had extensive weapons training and be placed in a position that puts me in the line of fire.

I guess if women in the military were an actual unfair advantage on male dominated forces, then wouldn't intelligence pick up on this and start using only women because they are harder to shoot at? hah! nice argument

it may help improve your aim in that case .. but only if the mod maker makes the collision detection smaller than that of an average sized male soldier.

[-TU--33ker 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A SMALLER TARGET IS UNFAIR.<span id='postcolor'>

bullshit

why is it unfair?? do you think everybody wants to be a woman in MP if an addon like that comes out?

have you seen the pics of the vietcong models in the new SEB nam pack? they're much smaller than US models. so why don't you complain about them?

IYDLIDDLI

[GodofGunnies 0]

Because they're so stupid that they run strait at you like morons. Female humans however have the same intelligence (maybe more) than I do, thus creating problems. Not only are they tougher to hit, but they know how to exploit that. 2+2=4. 4 is bad.

[Spitfire 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (GodofGunnies @ Oct. 06 2002,19:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A SMALLER TARGET IS UNFAIR.  Six inches shorter makes all the difference in the world.  A body shape makes all the difference in the world.  Narrower torso, right?  <span id='postcolor'>

Just give 'em a D-cup and it'll compensate for the 'small target'

[miles teg 1]

7--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (GodofGunnies @ Oct. 06 2002,187)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I want to say that THIS IS AN OPINION, NOT A STATEMENT OF MALICIOUSLY PERCIEVED FACTS.  Please remember this.  Also, I am not sexist.  Bear with me.

OFP is a realistic game.  It is a combat simulation.  That's what it started out as, and that's what it should remain.  Some recent addons in Resistance have created an unrealistic atmosphere, like the magazine capacity issues with the weapons, blah blah.  However, this game still must remain realisitic.  Women are not, have not, and I pray to God will not be in Combat for the US.  My reasons are my own, and are shared by several of the militarily keen in the world.  I know multiple women who can A) Beat me up or B) Outshoot me.  That's not the point.  The point is, that since this game is based on teh realism issue, female soldiers should NOT be included in the game, unless under the resistance  side.  Two, it is also unfair to the males who play this game, as was already stated.  A SMALLER TARGET IS UNFAIR.  Six inches shorter makes all the difference in the world.  A body shape makes all the difference in the world.  Narrower torso, right?  If you're firing properly, you aim for the TORSO.  If you get hit two inches from the belly button in this game, it's the same as if you get grazed.  You get hurt, and probably die.  For a female, that grazing wouldn't happen, because the body shape is such that that extra inch or so width of the abdominal area is not there.  If you want females, make 'em butch.  Not as a sexist thing, but as a fairness issue.  Besides.  I like women that can whoop my ass.  =D

Oh.  And if you don't agree with the women in combat issue, and want to argue about it with me, please don't do it in this thread.  Just PM me, or something.  It'd be inconveniant for thread readers to have to sort through the bullshit posts we'd (or I, anyway) would inevitably post.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually women have been in combat with the U.S. Army in both Desert Storm (on Search & Rescue missions for example) and in Panama there was a MP unit where at least one female MP was engaged in direct combat with Panamanian soldiers or paramilitaries.   Female soldiers also serve in numerous front line support roles in which there are strong possiblities that they will be engaged in direct combat.  Desert Storm showed this when one female was taken prisoner when her supply convoy was overrun by an Iraq armored offensive.  In other words, female soldiers are not sent back to the rear when combat occurs.  They do their job as they were trained to the best of their ability. There are probably hundreds of other stories of women who have performed combat oriented tasks in recent U.S. led military conflicts, but unfortunately I do not believe anyone has ventured to do a complete study of how women have performed in combat with the U.S. Army.

So while no, there are no female special forces or 11Bravos, there are still many in engineer units (including combat engineer units by the way) who will most likely face combat.

My old unit had female soldiers and we were definitely front line support equipped with heavy weapons and trained heavily in infantry tactics.  At Ft. Hood I also met a female Lt. in command of a combat engineer platoon.  Things are changing because female officers are realizing that for quicker promotion to top ranks they need combat experience.   It's not a political thing either.   It's a practical reality that officers with good records in combat make for better leaders because they have experience, and also usually more respect.

"Essayons!"

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>