Ukraine General

[oxmox 73]

http://youtu.be/A10VbnXa1fs

Russian Channel One showing a cheaply faked satellite photo as "evidence" that a military plane shot down the Boing. What is interesting to note is that they can't really decide on what kind of plane shot down the Boing, an SU-25, an SU-27 or a MiG 29.

When you google for images about the SU-25 it looks like the angel of the wings are different than on these alleged satellite images. Maybe Iam wrong and there are other types who have these type of wings, but I have not seen it.

You can be pretty sure if these alleged satellite images are not a false report/hoax, it will be soon mentioned in none-russian media with comments from experts. But if this is just a hoax probably only with comments of broad laughter.

Edited November 14, 2014 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

When you google for images about the SU-25 it looks like the angel of the wings are different than on these alleged satellite images. Maybe Iam wrong and there are other types who have these type of wings, but I have not seen it.

You can be pretty sure if these alleged satellite images are not a false report/hoax, it will be soon mentioned in none-russian media with comments from experts. But if this is just a hoax probably only with comments of broad laughter.

Nah, this isn't even worth mentioning, as long as russia won't present it internationally. There really is no need to speculate wether the image is real or fake, since it is so obviously fake.

-The planes are way too sharp. Even with the most super high tech satellites you will get blurry images of things moving 2000km/h, if you will be able to see them at all.

-The planes are way too big. From the proportions on the image the satellite should be closer to the planes than the planes are to the ground and there are no satellites that can orbit at 20km. (According to wikipedia the lowest possible orbit is at about 160km)

-The plane doesn't lead as Tonci already pointed out

There are probably much much more points but you get the idea.

[oxmox 73]

I dont know Iam not an expert when it comes to satellite images, but there are doubts of course.

[beastcat 14]

I dont know Iam not an expert when it comes to satellite images, but there are doubts of course.

Doubts? There are no doubts at all that this image is fake. Hell, even I could do a better job.

[oxmox 73]

Look, if you are an expert and can exactly say that it is a fake. Fine.

I cant, but I have doubts that these images are real satellite photos.

Edited November 14, 2014 by oxmox

[beastcat 14]

Look, if you are an expert and can exactly say that it is a fake. Fine.

I cant, but I have doubts that these images are real satellite photos.

You don't have to be an expert in order to apply basic knowledge of physics and perspective. But even if this image was perfect and without flaws at all, it would still contradict every single other piece of evidence we have to date.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Wow, just wow. Frankly, I think there is not enough critique of Russia. While reading your post I have decided I'll be criticizing Russia even more from now on. How dare you question the right of the west to criticize? What is this country you call "west" anyway?

I think you (we) need to stop with "wrongdoings of X make wrongdoings of Y good". Was the thing that west did 2 years ago criticized to the same degree as the thing Russia is now criticized for? Maybe not, but I highly doubt citizens of what you call "west" would approve either (I don't) if they were properly informed. And I think Russian citizens, who are made of same flesh and who have same brain structure as citizens of west, wouldn't approve too. I'm not counting extremism scum of course.

Why do you pretend you don't know what west means? To clarify, by west I mean US, UK, Germany, France. It's fine if Russians, Kazakhs or neutral countries criticize it, Ukraine is understandable too, but the spearhead of the attack on everything Russian, or similar to it has been (besides Ukraine media) the media of the countries I call west (the same countries that invented tactics Russia is using now).

[ProfTournesol 956]

Why do you pretend you don't know what west means? To clarify, by west I mean US, UK, Germany, France. It's fine if Russians, Kazakhs or neutral countries criticize it, Ukraine is understandable too, but the spearhead of the attack on everything Russian, or similar to it has been (besides Ukraine media) the media of the countries I call west (the same countries that invented tactics Russia is using now).

That's a wonderful paranoia.

[aleksadragutin 9]

That's a wonderful paranoia.

What is paranoiac about this?

[ProfTournesol 956]

What is paranoic abou this?

This :

the spearhead of the attack on everything Russian

[aleksadragutin 9]

This :

You don't think such a thing exists?

[ProfTournesol 956]

You don't think such a thing exists?

Nope. That's not Russophobia as you pretend.

[mistyronin 1181]

Why do you pretend you don't know what west means? To clarify, by west I mean US, UK, Germany, France.

It's the first time in my life I see the "West" meant these countries. UK and France are in Western Europe ( Same as Spain, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands and Ireland). Map of Western Europehttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/CIA_Western-Europe-map2.png.

Western Civilization is the one that has roots in the classical Rome and Greece, Democracy and nowadays even capitalism. But again, that means a lot of countries ( almost half the World ).

Also during the Cold War the West was used for NATO and partners, but once again, a lot more countries. Map of the world during Cold War.

And a lot of etc. Including now yours that means: US, UK, Germany and France.

the spearhead of the attack on everything Russian[/b], or similar to it has been (besides Ukraine media) the media of the countries I call west (the same countries that invented tactics Russia is using now).

Here you got me lost.

First I have lived most of my life in Western Europe ( now in the Nordics ) and I follow the media from most of that countries and never seen any bias against Russia, neither the Russian Culture. In fact in most of these countries you mentioned, there are a lot of theater acts written by Russian authors, people listen to Russian musicians, even a good bunch of people who were in love with Communism and the Russian-Soviet Empire ( I had a good friend whose nick in MSN was comrade Stalin ). Even nowadays a good bunch of neo-nazi and right wing parties adore Putin's policies.

And there are way more news in the Western media about IS, if Myla Dalbasio is "over-sized", if Taylor Swift is a feminist because she don't want to have her music in Spotify, etc. than about Russia.

So would you mind telling us what media do you follow that is so Russophob?

---------- Post added at 21:24 ---------- Previous post was at 20:54 ----------

( BBC ) Ukraine crisis: Russia accuses OSCE monitors of bias

n a statement, the ministry said it was concerned at statements by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE).

It said the OSCE reported rebel troop movements while ignoring ceasefire violations by Ukrainian forces.

Nato says convoys spotted by the OSCE this week were actually Russian.

The Kremlin denied that accusation although it has suggested in the past that Russian "volunteers" may be fighting on the rebel side.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Yeah, when OSCE is unable to spot anything, Russia official medias (99% of Russian medias ;) ) quote them saying "hey look, there isn't any Russian troops in Ukraine". And when OSCE finally notices something, it isn't reliable anymore ?

[surpher 1]

http://youtu.be/A10VbnXa1fs

Russian Channel One showing a cheaply faked satellite photo as "evidence" that a military plane shot down the Boing. What is interesting to note is that they can't really decide on what kind of plane shot down the Boing, an SU-25, an SU-27 or a MiG 29.

Larger faked satellite image, appears to be a composite of Google Earth and Yandex maps.

[oxmox 73]

There seems to be a prelude - the Ukraine did accuse the OSCE already some days ago.

"one-sided reports": Ukraine critics on OSCE

"Einseitige Berichte": Ukrainische Kritik an OSZE

accusations by Dmytro Tymtschuk (coordinator with responsibility to release informations about military going-ons in the east)

* wrong analysis

* OSCE staff who did give away informations to seperatists and military intelligence for russia

* one-sided report about the School No63 incident. The OSCE did report that the School was hit from the northwest and therefore from ukrainian positions. Tymtschuk claims the shelling were incomming from the opposite direction. Which can be seen on released images, a fence was hit from the eastern direction.

* OSCE members did talk about ukrainian military positions, in this meeting there were aswell representatives of the russian military.

Tymtschuk assumes russian citizen behind the happenings who are working for the OSCE.

The OSCE did deny the accusations.

(only parts of the article translated)

http://diepresse.com/home/politik/aussenpolitik/4592737/Einseitige-Berichte_Ukrainische-Kritik-an-OSZE?direct=4592674&_vl_backlink=/home/index.do&selChannel=103

Another article about the accusations of the OSCE by the Ukraine from the KyivPost:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/osce-denies-allegations-of-bias-in-russias-favor-in-ukraines-east-371446.html

@surpher

What a joke. But I wonder why they are doing this so simple if they did really fake it.

Here we go, seems like the international media starts to report about it.

Is this the moment MH17 was shot down as it flew over Ukraine? Russian state broadcaster produces 'satellite images' showing alleged fighter jet attack

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2835088/Is-moment-MH17-shot-flew-Ukraine-Russian-state-broadcaster-produces-satellite-images-showing-fighter-jet-attack.html

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/russian-media-releases-satellite-image-claiming-to-show-mh17-shot-down-by-ukrainian-fighter-jet/story-fniztvnh-1227123846130?nk=1af04550fb448dc73a14689c27b61938

Edited November 14, 2014 by oxmox

[aleksadragutin 9]

It's the first time in my life I see the "West" meant these countries. UK and France are in Western Europe ( Same as Spain, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands and Ireland). Map of Western Europehttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/CIA_Western-Europe-map2.png.

Western Civilization is the one that has roots in the classical Rome and Greece, Democracy and nowadays even capitalism. But again, that means a lot of countries ( almost half the World ).

Also during the Cold War the West was used for NATO and partners, but once again, a lot more countries. Map of the world during Cold War.

And a lot of etc. Including now yours that means: US, UK, Germany and France.

Here you got me lost.

First I have lived most of my life in Western Europe ( now in the Nordics ) and I follow the media from most of that countries and never seen any bias against Russia, neither the Russian Culture. In fact in most of these countries you mentioned, there are a lot of theater acts written by Russian authors, people listen to Russian musicians, even a good bunch of people who were in love with Communism and the Russian-Soviet Empire ( I had a good friend whose nick in MSN was comrade Stalin ). Even nowadays a good bunch of neo-nazi and right wing parties adore Putin's policies.

And there are way more news in the Western media about IS, if Myla Dalbasio is "over-sized", if Taylor Swift is a feminist because she don't want to have her music in Spotify, etc. than about Russia.

So would you mind telling us what media do you follow that is so Russophob?

---------- Post added at 21:24 ---------- Previous post was at 20:54 ----------

( BBC ) Ukraine crisis: Russia accuses OSCE monitors of bias

The word west has been in use in that context for decades (at least, since I, and pretty much everyone I talked to, have been using it).

And the media has been attacking Russia since the olympics in Sochi. I remember seeing a report, where they were showing the hands of some labor worker, stating how rotten the Russian system was and showing the pictures only of the poorest people and beggars.

[oxmox 73]

Yeah, the term "the West" is actually used quiete often in the news and you read it almost daily. Wikipedia writes something about it aswell if someone wants to dig deeper. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Bloc

Edited November 14, 2014 by oxmox

[aleksadragutin 9]

What a joke. But I wonder why they are doing this so simple if they did really fake it.

I guess because it is not official.

[oxmox 73]

I guess because it is not official.

...pretty sure, the untrusty media again. Its not the only questionable report I did read in this week from eastern and western media. But this is pretty steep.

Edited November 14, 2014 by oxmox

[surpher 1]

This is where the video comes from.

(1tv) Moments before the crash "Boeing" near Donetsk - a unique frame in the analytical program "However"

"We saw ourselves cosmic picture taken with not very high orbit. And usually made such pictures General Intelligence air and ground space. In accordance with the coordinates specified in the picture, we can assume that the picture was taken from the American or British satellite. We conducted a detailed analysis of the image and no sign of a fake is not revealed, "- said the first vice-president of the Russian Union of Engineers Ivan Andrievsky.

[mistyronin 1181]

Yeah, the term "the West" is actually used quiete often in the news and you read it almost daily. Wikipedia writes something about it aswell if someone wants to dig deeper. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Bloc

Ox we were talking about the limited definition of Aleksa, he means only US, UK, France and Germany; not the Western Bloc.

And I've never seen it described as the West in the news ( only in Russian propaganda medias ). They talk about Western countries / culture, which means almost half of the World, not 4 countries.

Before I already commented:

It's the first time in my life I see the "West" meant these countries. UK and France are in Western Europe ( Same as Spain, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands and Ireland). Map of Western Europehttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/CIA_Western-Europe-map2.png.

Western Civilization is the one that has roots in the classical Rome and Greece, Democracy and nowadays even capitalism. But again, that means a lot of countries ( almost half the World ).

Also during the Cold War the West was used for NATO and partners, but once again, a lot more countries. Map of the world during Cold War.

Edited November 14, 2014 by MistyRonin

[Tonci87 163]

This is where the video comes from.

(1tv) Moments before the crash "Boeing" near Donetsk - a unique frame in the analytical program "However"

This image is clearly fake. The aicraft are way to big when compared to the ground. Either that shot was taken from like 20km hight or that airliner is as large as a shoping mall.

I love how they also put in a visible tracer bullet just to get the message across. One Tracer bullet. Because a fighter is only going to fire one of those and without a muzzleflash.... (and if you look closely you can see that the bullet is aimed roughly 100m behind the airliner wich means that it will miss the plane by a few hundred meters. Even Ukrainian pilots aren´t that bad.)

According to them a fighter who wants to kill an airliner without having the airliner notice him is also going to attack from the side, not from the rear where he could line up for a perfect shot...

Always the same with Russian propaganda, they only put enough effort into it to convince people who can´t think for themselves....

[Xalteva 10]

The MH17 never existed ...

[ProfTournesol 956]

The MH17 never existed ...

Oh look, conspiracy again :rolleyes: