Ukraine General

[mistyronin 1181]

Obama could only dream of having as much power and control as Putin has.

That's the difference between a presidential democracy ( like US ) where a couple of journalist can overthrow a president, and a way more authoritarian state where the President controls most of the media.

In the US the lobbies have a lot of influence, in Russia not much. Obviously there's a lot of towers in the Kremlin, but Putin controls them with an iron fist.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Obama could only dream of having as much power and control as Putin has. That's the difference with a presidential democracy and a way more authoritarian state.

In the US the lobbies have a lot of influence, in Russia not much. Obviously there's a lot of towers in the Kremlin, but Putin controls them with an iron fist.

Not everything is what it seams at a first glance. There are incredible webs of interests around Putin, and I personally don't believe he makes major decisions on his own.

[Tonci87 163]

What a ridiculous bunch of people they are....

[ProfTournesol 956]

[x3kj 1247]

Bullshit. Putin is the one who has to win the most from the current situation. Putin only cares about Putin. Simple

So does every other sovereign nation, it only cares for itself, unless its a puppet state, which cares about its master first, itself second. Or what the fuck do you think the US was doing in the middle east and so on? Care about the afghan people? But that doesnt occur to you in your desire to just write bullshit below everything i write and your hatred for putin.

How about you elaborate on why exactly putin would win in a hot war against NATO instead of just throwing hollow rethorics?

That's the difference between a presidential democracy ( like US ) where a couple of journalist can overthrow a president

or end up killed by mysterious circumstances, bribed and threatened or beeing hunted to the end of their life, or ridiculed by silly statements in the rest of the media. Do you know recent examples of big revelations that removed officials from office in US?

where the President controls most of the media

Thats why Snowden and Julian Assange are free and respected men in America, right? Because US media is not controlled, right? Then why does the mainstream denounce/bully/ridicule critics? People that ask questions about 9/11... "truthers", dumb, and anti-american. People that complain about Zionism... anti-semites, nazi's, Jew-haters, holocaust deniers, enemy of US and Israel. Whistleblowers ... traitors of the worst kind, not thrustworthy etc.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Fennek

[maturin 12]

Precisely. Russia wouldnt benefit, russia would lose. Therefore the other side wins from a geostrategic standpoint -> expanded controll in territory, more ressources, a global adversary less on the map... So now tell me in who's interest it would be to escalate the situation? cui bono? The question i raised since the beginning of the entire conflict.

I doubt russia would benefit in a long cold war, when strict sanctions are in place and china stays neutral. The stuff you mentioned regarding putin - yes possibly, but those are short term effects. But geostrategic? No, it won't benefit from a cold war either in my opinion.

Here's a hint: Putin's administration was born in wartime. He was a nobody before Chechnya.

War is necessary to prop up his own autocracy. He has long since past the point where he can ever hope to leave office alive or manage a transition to a successor. The power vertical he has built to protect himself has made the country basically incapable of real modernization. If oil prices were to crash, or the economy stagnate, he would be very vulnerable. The long and short of it is, Putin has nothing to offer Russia except that which can be gotten at the end of a bayonet, and needs to preempt his own decline with the usual tools of the warmonger and xenophobic demagogue.

Remember that this is a Cheka state run by the secret services. It calls the Ukraininan government what it is itself--a junta. For such systems, a period of political or economic setbacks doesn't get you a lost midterm election, it gets you catastrophe.

Of course Russia won't benefit from a long cold war. But it will allow Putin and his regime to survive.

[Tonci87 163]

So does every other sovereign nation, it only cares for itself, unless its a puppet state, which cares about its master first, itself second. Or what the fuck do you think the US was doing in the middle east and so on? Care about the afghan people? But that doesnt occur to you in your desire to just write bullshit below everything i write and your hatred for putin.

How about you elaborate on why exactly putin would win in a hot war against NATO instead of just throwing hollow rethorics?

I will always be the first to criticize the US for what hey have done in the middle east. It was wrong. However, once again we see that Putin supporters immediatelly pull the "they did it too" card to justify Russias actions. I think I don´t have to explain again why that is stupid. Also I never said that Putin would win in a hot war.

BTW the Russian government has a term for foreign people who defend them no matter what they do. Do you know that? They call them usefull idiots. Don´t be one.

[surpher 1]

(UK Mission to the United Nations) Statement by Ambassador Lyall Grant of the UK Mission to the UN, to the Security Council meeting on Ukraine.

Since this Council last met on 24 October to discuss Ukraine, Russia and the separatists it supports have repeatedly undermined and ignored the Minsk agreements. Russian leaders have told us one thing and then ordered their military, their special forces and their separatist rebel proxies to do another. The ceasefire has been breached. Attempts to monitor and verify the ceasefire and the border have been blocked. Russia continues to supply its soldiers in Ukraine and the separatists they fight alongside with heavy weaponry, artillery, tanks and armoured vehicles in flagrant breach of the Minsk protocols.

[Maio 293]

Here is a post from another website. The poster claims that the convoy is heading towards Donetsk.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?236005-Situation-in-the-Ukraine-Crimea-*Photos-Videos*-ONLY&p=7454276&viewfull=1#post7454276

[negah 26]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/wanted-british-white-widow-terrorist-4616471

[surpher 1]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/wanted-british-white-widow-terrorist-4616471

(The Independent) White widow 'dead': Reports Samantha Lewthwaite killed in Ukraine dismissed as false

“One of the world’s most wanted terrorists Samantha Lewthwaite who fought as part of a Ukrainian battalion has been killed by a volunteer sniper,†the Mirror quoted the news report as saying.

“According to our information, the White Widow fought on the side of the Ukrainian volunteer battalion Aidar as a sniper.â€

The report also claimed a $1million bounty has now been placed on the head of the Russian sniper who allegedly shot her dead.

The accuracy of the article came under intense scrutiny, particularly as it did not cite any specific sources for the dramatic claim. Most recent reports suggested the 30-year-old had joined Isis militants in Syria.

[ProfTournesol 956]

Well, quoting tabloïds is always risky ;)

[surpher 1]

(Lithuania Mission to the United Nations) Lithuania's statement at the UN Security Council briefing on Ukraine

The conflict in Ukraine is not an internal affair. Not a civil war. Nor a rebellion of disgruntled citizens. It is Russia’s war against Ukraine for daring to choose a different – European – path. Sponsored by the Kremlin, the illegal armed separatists, many of whom carry Russian passports, have been inflicting heavy damage on the Ukrainian forces and civilian population, before and during the ceasefire, using sophisticated weaponry, tanks, multiple rocket launcher systems, and heavy artillery. While Ukraine followed the ceasefire agreement, Russia-backed separatists used the time to rearm and grab more territory. By now, these illegal armed groups are probably better armed than some of the smaller European states.

[x3kj 1247]

Also I never said that Putin would win in a hot war.

Except that is what the 2 posts before that where talking about.

However, once again we see that Putin supporters immediatelly pull the "they did it too" card to justify Russias actions. I think I don´t have to explain again why that is stupid.

I think you do. Because the world is pointing the finger at Putin about how bad he is and what a devil his whole country is and with what malicious methods he runs his country. When in fact the opposing site was and is doing the same thing just months before that. It's hypocrisy. Where are all the comparisons about Obama and co beeing the new or even worse then <insert your bad leader> in mainstream media. Or demands that someone should bring down US government now for their crimes? Demanding Embargo's/Sanctions on US? Fucking nowhere. Sure, rebel faction gets supported - lets praise it as helping democrazy. Unless its not to our benefit, then they are terrorists and its ok to bomb them.

[maturin 12]

I think you do. Because the world is pointing the finger at Putin about how bad he is and what a devil his whole country is and with what malicious methods he runs his country. When in fact the opposing site was and is doing the same thing just months before that. It's hypocrisy. Where are all the comparisons about Obama and co beeing the new or even worse then <insert your bad leader> in mainstream media. Or demands that someone should bring down US government now for their crimes? Demanding Embargo's/Sanctions on US? Fucking nowhere. Sure, rebel faction gets supported - lets praise it as helping democrazy. Unless its not to our benefit, then they are terrorists and its ok to bomb them.

So basically what you're saying is that you don't have any political beliefs, and don't want to see the world be more peaceful and less unjust.

Whereas a decent, mature person wants BOTH the U.S. AND Russia AND China etc not to bomb and intervene in other countries, people like you see the U.S. getting away with and decide to support Russian and China's crimes, all in the name of fairness.

Because let's make sure that all countries are starting wars so it will be even, right?

[negah 26]

(The Independent) White widow 'dead': Reports Samantha Lewthwaite killed in Ukraine dismissed as false

The accuracy of the article came under intense scrutiny, particularly as it did not cite any specific sources for the dramatic claim. Most recent reports suggested the 30-year-old had joined Isis militants in Syria.

The fact that The Independent does not cite any specific source either except the words of that commander who is insterested in keeping the name of his unit clean does not really prove anything.

How recent are those reports? One week or half a year? You see how someone assumes thet her presence is unlikely and its taken as a hard proof.

Alone the fact that The Independent claimes the bomb attack by her husband was in 2003 when in fact it was 2005 makes you wonder about the credibility of this magazine.

Further on you see that she has already been in East Afrika, so she does seem to travel a lot, so some reports that she was seen in Syria do not prove that she is there now.

But yeah I know we live in a free world and you can believe in whatever proof you want to believe.

Edited November 14, 2014 by negah

[Tonci87 163]

So basically what you're saying is that you don't have any political beliefs, and don't want to see the world be more peaceful and less unjust.

Whereas a decent, mature person wants BOTH the U.S. AND Russia AND China etc not to bomb and intervene in other countries, people like you see the U.S. getting away with and decide to support Russian and China's crimes, all in the name of fairness.

Because let's make sure that all countries are starting wars so it will be even, right?

I don´t have much to add here.

Two wrongs don´t make one right!

It it OK for you to go and steal something just because something was stolen from you before? So why is it OK for Russia to play the "The US did it too" card?

Go ahead, answer that question if you can. I doubt you can do it without exposing a deeply flawed moral compass and a bias against the US.

Just because the USA did something wrong this doesn´t mean that it shouldn´t be condemned. It also must not be used by other nations to justify their own shady tactics.

"He did it too" is a justification you will only hear in kindergarden and even there you don´t get away with it.

[aleksadragutin 9]

You don't get the point. The west doesn't have any rights to sanction, or even to critcize Russia, since what they do every couple of years is exactly the same.

Everyone wants a peacefull world, but the west is not letting this be, so there needs to be someone to stand up to it, and create more or less balance in the world.

But the west want's to have monopoly, and that is why you see in every game/movie Russians being the bad guys.

The anti Russian propaganda started even before the olympic games, as a kind of a media preparation.

Edited November 14, 2014 by aleksadragutin

[batto 17]

You don't get the point. The west doesn't have any rights to sanction, or even to critcize Russia, since what they do every couple of years is exactly the same.

Everyone wants a peacefull world, but the west is not letting this be, so there needs to be someone to stand up to it, and create more or less balance in the world.

But the west want's to have monopoly, and that is why you see in every game/movie Russians being the bad guys.

The anti Russian propaganda started even before the olympic games, as a kind of a media preparation.

Wow, just wow. Frankly, I think there is not enough critique of Russia. While reading your post I have decided I'll be criticizing Russia even more from now on. How dare you question the right of the west to criticize? What is this country you call "west" anyway?

I think you (we) need to stop with "wrongdoings of X make wrongdoings of Y good". Was the thing that west did 2 years ago criticized to the same degree as the thing Russia is now criticized for? Maybe not, but I highly doubt citizens of what you call "west" would approve either (I don't) if they were properly informed. And I think Russian citizens, who are made of same flesh and who have same brain structure as citizens of west, wouldn't approve too. I'm not counting extremism scum of course.

Edited November 14, 2014 by batto

[Tonci87 163]

Yep, deeply flawed moral compass indeed.

[beastcat 14]

[mistyronin 1181]

You don't get the point. The west doesn't have any rights to sanction, or even to critcize Russia, since what they do every couple of years is exactly the same.

I still don't get much what do you understand by "West", you mean the democratic countries of the World? ( because Australia, Brazil, etc. critisize Russia too; hell, even Russian former ally Kazakhstan does ).

In fact in the UN, only a few countries ( less than 12 ) supported the Russian invasion and fake referendum in Crimea. Are these more than 150 countries that opposed, the "West"?

And again, which country in your imaginary "West" has been bullying, invading and annexing their neighbors ( or other countries )... Has the US invaded and annexed Mexico or Canada and I've missed it? Has France invaded and annexed Germany?

How many countries have a NATO or EU member invaded and annexed lately? The only one I can remember is Turkey in Cypruss, and probably Turkey would not fit in your "West" definition.

In fact in most of the Globe ( including Europe and North America ), there has been a deep critisim of the latest US military campaigns. So if we can point what we don't like about the US, why shouldn't we point what we disagree about Russia. Besides the obvious right of freedom of speech, which BTW doesn't exist in countries like Russia.

BTW after the War of Iraq a lot of Western Europe leaders were not sanctioned, but completely removed from power by their own citizens that punished them with their votes.

Edited November 14, 2014 by MistyRonin

[beastcat 14]

http://youtu.be/A10VbnXa1fs

Russian Channel One showing a cheaply faked satellite photo as "evidence" that a military plane shot down the Boing. What is interesting to note is that they can't really decide on what kind of plane shot down the Boing, an SU-25, an SU-27 or a MiG 29.

[Tonci87 163]

LOL at that fake sat image!

Look at that, Ukraine must have super heat seeking bullets because that fighter doesn´t even nead to lead the target.....

[ProfTournesol 956]

LOL at that fake sat image!

Look at that, Ukraine must have super heat seeking bullets because that fighter doesn´t even nead to lead the target.....

yep, that must be a footage from Jack Bauer's 24.