Ukraine General

[oxmox 73]

How is that even relevant? Compare the history of Russia and of the US and you will see that Russia has invaded far more countries and killed far more civilians. Is that relevant for the current conflict? No. The only thing of relevance is that right now Russia is messing with the autonomy and territorial integrity of an independent country. They are practically invading it.

Iam not here to take someones position, but where you have the infos that since 1991 Russia did kill far more civilians ? This sounds absurd at first but Iam sure you can eleborate.

Is it relevant to the conflict, no since everyone with a little knowledge about modern history knows which nations hold the record in military interferences.

Of course it is not alright what is russia doing here, they are supporting Ukrainians who want to split with their own country. This is an interference into the Ukranian sovereignity. Locally it is still a main conflict about Ukrainian people, where Ukrainian are shooting Ukrainians.

But it is the question, if this can be called a direct military conflict or an invasion. Even the crimea act is a controversial about the Law of Nations when it comes to call it an annexion. Some experts rather call it a secession. I will probably post later some infos about this.

Edited September 1, 2014 by oxmox

[vilas 477]

they are supporting Ukrainians who want to split with their own country.

there are no Ukrainians who want to split Ukraine

there is part of Russian minority and Putin agents or soliders (who want to take oil rich, industrial part of Ukraine)

[akm74 1]

I've done that, and its quite awesome how Russians managed that half of europe hate them).

If by "half of Europe" you mean albania and cosovo than it sound as a complement... (neither of them part of real Europe anyway ... judging by "locals" opinion. Geographically maybe.. not otherwise)

I'm eagerly waiting for Dutch experts conclusions about that drama though (but not for conspiracy theories anyway).

What was a "time stamp" on fake video uks posted first day ?

Edited September 1, 2014 by AKM74

[oxmox 73]

there are no Ukrainians who want to split Ukraine

there is part of Russian minority and Putin agents or soliders (who want to take oil rich, industrial part of Ukraine)

The Ukraine had always an internal squarrel about the eastern region, the minority is almost the whole East Ukraine where allegedly at least 75% of the population is ethnically or at least speak russia as their mother language.

This conflict is still first a conflict about Ukrainians locally.

[vilas 477]

at least 75% of .

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Russians_Ukraine_2001.PNG

not > 75, but 25-40%

they fight with guns cause in free elections/referendum they would be defeated

it is 30% that wants force 70% how to live,

Russian speaking Ukrainians fight with rebels - mind that , many of those who fight with rebels use Russian language, they do not want to live in Russia but they hope to be in EU,

thats why minority who would lost in referendum , took weapons

Edited September 1, 2014 by vilas

[oxmox 73]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Russians_Ukraine_2001.PNG

not > 75, but 25-40%

they fight cause in free elections/referendum they would be defeated

Ok I need to check again, maybe Iam wrong about the numbers.

[vilas 477]

Ok I need to check again, maybe Iam wrong about the numbers. What is wikimedia, please post wikipedia.

they fight with guns cause in free elections/referendum they would be defeated

it is 30% that wants force 70% how to live,

Russian speaking Ukrainians fight with rebels - mind that , many of those who fight with rebels use Russian language, they do not want to live in Russia but they hope to be in EU,

thats why minority who would lost in referendum , took weapons

look at ISIS, majority of Muslims want to live normally, some dozen percent want Jihad and Sharia and took weapons

[akm74 1]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/68/Russians_Ukraine_2001.PNG

not > 75, but 25-40%

they fight cause in free elections/referendum they would be defeated

...and this mean total 75% support new government ? You do realize then more then half of separatist actually Russian-speaking Ukrainians ?

Russian speaking Ukrainians fight with rebels - mind that , many of those who fight with rebels use Russian language

that's because 80% of Ukrainian don't speak Ukrainian at all...

Edited September 1, 2014 by AKM74

[oxmox 73]

Ok the numbers are about the Oblast Donezk and I did not misread it.

Oblast Donezk - Thats one part of the region where the conflict happens

Der Anteil russischer Muttersprachler an der Gesamtbevölkerung ist von 67,7 % im Jahr 1989 auf 74,9 % im Jahr 2001 gestiegen.

(percentage of the population with russian motherlanguage: 2001 74,9%)

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblast_Donezk

edit:

english wikipedia

At the 2001 census, the languages spoken within the oblast were: Russian — 74.9%, Ukrainian – 24.1%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_Oblast

Luhansk Oblast - the next big region where the conflict is happening (neighbour region of Oblast Donezk)

According to the 2001 Ukrainian Census, - more than 68.8% of the population consider themselves Russian speakers -, while Ukrainian speakers were only 30.0%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luhansk_Oblast

This is still a local fight between Ukranian people aswell, not just about russia who highly likely indirect supports the seperatists.

The Ukraine had always domestic political squarrels with this region, and the political discussion about an autonomous status is not new.

Edited September 1, 2014 by oxmox

[aleksadragutin 9]

Well as I told maybe a thousand times, even while it was happening that day ( you can check it, as I commented in this thread while everything happened ); I followed all the riots through different video live stream sources ( I even posted the links of that sources ).

And I could see perfectly when it happened that there, there was a wooden barricade structure in front of the building, and when the Ukrainian hooligans arrived at the square and started surrounding the building, the pro-Russians from the top started throwing them molotov cocktails, one of them ignited the wooden barricade in front of the main door and propagated inside the building.

Violence was quite extreme in both sides, but the Ukrainian Police saved numerous pro-Russians from being beaten.

Other interesting facts from that day was that at least part of the pro-Russians came with white vans with logos of the "Donetsk Republic", so they were not native from there.

I was a NATO soldier, but that doesn't mean that I support all NATO campaigns. But the scope of how NATO and Russian forces behave is really different.

Russia conduct its operations to annex territories in a XIX century imperialist expansionist manner. While in all the NATO operations the power has always been given back to the natives ( some of them asked NATO forces to go, like in Iraq ).

If you compare the situation in Kosovo after almost 20 years of violence and clashes and the situation in Eastern Ukraine were before February of this year there was never important violence, or practically of any kind.

Then you will realize that the violent pro-Russian movement appeared out of the blue, originated from Russian citizens ( most of them from the Moscow area ), decided to use violence even without trying one peaceful method, had lots of weapons and military training, etc.

So no, it's not that there was a problem there before February, is that someone created a problem there from the outside.

NATO is a terrorist organisation basically. Their operations are aimed to scare people into influencing government which is the definition of terrorism. Their operations differ from Russian because they don't fight for territory or honor or justice (as some want you to believe), they fight for export market. The tactics where they destroy your economy and then you pay them to rebuild it. This is being spearheaded by the US.

Being a soldier is just being a pawn in a much greater chess game. An expendable puppet. Not just in NATO but on all sides.

It is not justifying NATO when saying that their methods are modern. It is doing the same evil thing just presented nicer.

[ProfTournesol 956]

NATO is a terrorist organisation basically. Their operations are aimed to scare people into influencing government which is the definition of terrorism. Their operations differ from Russian because they don't fight for territory or honor or justice (as some want you to believe), they fight for export market. The tactics where they destroy your economy and then you pay them to rebuild it. This is being spearheaded by the US.

Being a soldier is just being a pawn in a much greater chess game. An expendable puppet. Not just in NATO but on all sides.

It is not justifying NATO when saying that their methods are modern. It is doing the same evil thing just presented nicer.

Example ? (Apart your favorite Serbia one ?) And i'm speaking of NATO, not USA.

[aleksadragutin 9]

Example ? (Apart your favorite Serbia one ?) And i'm speaking of NATO, not USA.

NATO is governed by the US. NATO goes to war where US tells it to so it is not that different.

As for examples, someone already posted a list. You have it couple of pages back. Libya is my favorite apart from Serbia.

[ProfTournesol 956]

NATO is governed by the US. NATO goes to war where US tells it to so it is not that different.

As for examples, someone already posted a list. You have it couple of pages back. Libya is my favorite apart from Serbia.

That's blatantly not true. You should learn a little more about what happened about Iraq in 2003 before making easy conclusions. Lybia was driven by France and UK, the USA only provided support without wanting to be more involved. But "NATO" is an easy word, such as "Fascist" being overused by Russian propaganda.

[aleksadragutin 9]

That's blatantly not true. You should learn a little more about what happened about Iraq in 2003 before making easy conclusions. Lybia was driven by France and UK, the USA only provided support without wanting to be more involved. But "NATO" is an easy word, such as "Fascist" being overused by Russian propaganda.

Ah, you poor naive people.

[surpher 1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUAKPEj0h9Q

(BBC) Putin on Ukraine talks: 'Beginning of important process' Edited September 1, 2014 by surpher

[ProfTournesol 956]

Ah, you poor naive people.

No need for smart comment when you're proved wrong.

[vilas 477]

population consider themselves Russian speakers

Russian speakers doesn't mean support Putin or Russia , there are also Poles who are only Russian speaking cause in XIX century or in 1940 they were deported to Siberia as small children and they never spoken Polish neither were taught , Russian speaking are also Ukrainians,

those terrorists who act there not only took hostages many times, but also were doing all to disturb elections for example

so they know that democratically they would lost

[aleksadragutin 9]

No need for smart comment when you're proved wrong.

You didn't prove anything, except your naivety. Before you pop out some wikipedia articles, please do some thinking and decide if you want to stick with NATO being independent from US.

[akm74 1]

Ah, you poor naive people.

you are wasting your time, man. Vilas only honest-one from them who use his real country under his avatar :cool:

[oxmox 73]

Russian speakers doesn't mean support Putin or Russia , there are also Poles who are only Russian speaking cause in XIX century or in 1940 they were deported to Siberia as small children and they never spoken Polish neither were taught , Russian speaking are also Ukrainians,

those terrorists who act there not only took hostages many times, but also were doing all to disturb elections for example

so they know that democratically they would lost

But this does not mean that this conflict is only about russia, this is an internal local conflict mainly and russia plays a supporter role. Ukrainian people are killing Ukrainian and thats a desaster. The Ukraine was split already internal since a longer time and if you read more about it you will find out there were more often political discussion about an autonomous status. Unfortunately the media currently talks in most cases only about russia.

[vilas 477]

Ukrainian people are killing Ukrainian and thats a desaster.

not only Ukrainian, there are "Russian soldiers on holidays" there

[oxmox 73]

not only Ukrainian, there are "Russian soldiers on holidays" there

The "russian soldiers on holidays" can be real volunteers, disguised as volunteers or maybe people with dual passports. You will find volunteers on both sides by the way, but I guess more are to find on the seperatist side. It is a obscure conflict with many factors, not just limited to the local fights like we discussed and posted infos already pages ago. The desaster is that Ukrainian killing each other and civilians are involved, this is not just russian troops fighting against the ukrainian military...thats probably nonsens.

What I miss are actually infos from the media about man power of seperatists, maybe I missed it. And if you read about insurgencies in general in the world, in most cases did a greater power support them.

Edited September 1, 2014 by oxmox

[Tonci87 163]

you are wasting your time, man. Vilas only honest-one from them who use his real country under his avatar :cool:

I don´t even know what to say about this.....

[mistyronin 1181]

If by "half of Europe" you mean albania and cosovo than it sound as a complement... (neither of them part of real Europe anyway ... judging by "locals" opinion. Geographically maybe.. not otherwise)

Nope I was referring to all the people I know from the Baltics, Poland, Hungary and Bulgaria.

I know an Albanian but she seems to like Putin a lot, or at least support his actions ( she worked as a teacher in London, so she knows a bit of all parts ). But well, according to her Napoleon was Albanian...

[akm74 1]

Nope I was referring to all the people I know from the Baltics, Poland, Hungary and Bulgaria.

never been in Poland, Hungary and Bulgaria. So i don't know. But speaking with peoples from Spain, France and Italy (locally) i have quite opposite impresions. Guys from England don't care about politics that much (specially girls :-)

I know an Albanian but she seems to like Putin a lot, or at least support his actions ( she worked as a teacher in London, so she knows a bit of all parts ). But well, according to her Napoleon was Albanian...

unless she live in Paris...:) But i guess London is a key word here.

Edited September 1, 2014 by AKM74