1para{god-father} 105 Posted January 31, 2014 I am using L3DT but am struggling making small trenches/ verges along side roads , and very small streams What is the best way to do very small changes is it using bulldozer, as L3DT seems not to like small changes Thanks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bushlurker 46 Posted January 31, 2014 The main limitation with these sort of things is the resolution of your underlying heightmap... If you're using, eg: a 5 meter "cellsize" then it's simply not possible to create eg: 1 meter wide trenches.. The absolute minimum width trench would be 5 meters wide, but even that would look pretty "jagged" since there'll be no smooth "ramp down and ramp up again" - it would be a sharp "dip" in the ground with probably pretty jagged edhes. To make things smoother you'd need to gradually ramp down and then up again using several "ground cells" to get smoother "banks" or "trench walls" and, if you're using eg: 5 meter cells, then you're now talking about a 20 meter wide feature, which is more like a river than a roadside ditch! Small ground features like this, and particularly narrow trenches, have been discussed a lot in Arma terrainmaking, but as yet, there's no fully adequate solution - the heightmap cellsize is the limiting factor I'm afraid... B Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maturin 12 Posted January 31, 2014 How many years of development would it take to make localized areas of high cell sizes? Or VBS2-style caves, which are much higher-res than the heightmap in small areas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1para{god-father} 105 Posted February 1, 2014 The main limitation with these sort of things is the resolution of your underlying heightmap... If you're using, eg: a 5 meter "cellsize" then it's simply not possible to create eg: 1 meter wide trenches.. The absolute minimum width trench would be 5 meters wide, but even that would look pretty "jagged" since there'll be no smooth "ramp down and ramp up again" - it would be a sharp "dip" in the ground with probably pretty jagged edhes.To make things smoother you'd need to gradually ramp down and then up again using several "ground cells" to get smoother "banks" or "trench walls" and, if you're using eg: 5 meter cells, then you're now talking about a 20 meter wide feature, which is more like a river than a roadside ditch! Small ground features like this, and particularly narrow trenches, have been discussed a lot in Arma terrainmaking, but as yet, there's no fully adequate solution - the heightmap cellsize is the limiting factor I'm afraid... B Ahhhh i am using 10 - hence my issue they are massive So some advice then please ...... L3DT 2048x2048 @ 10 scale Visitor 2048x2048 x 10 So i presume if I wanted the same scale i would need to change to 4096x4096 x 5 - would i then need to change L3DT to this and also Visitor. Is there an easy change or do i have to start again and import ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZeroG 23 Posted February 1, 2014 Try to upscale the heightmap with photoshop if it is a fantasy map anyways. Did this several times and it looked ok... If you want even better trenches: the max I'd recommend for heightmap cell size is 3m though, because with less it will be heavy on the machine, as I found out when experimenting with a 4096x4096m map featuring 1m cell size. You can already see the workload for CPU on the map Proving Grounds, which is 512x512m with 4m cell size...but then again: the trenches are awesome :( Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bushlurker 46 Posted February 1, 2014 (edited) So i presume if I wanted the same scale i would need to change to 4096x4096 x 5 - would i then need to change L3DT to this and also Visitor.Is there an easy change or do i have to start again and import ? Yes - you've got the idea... 2048x2048@10m and 4096x4096@5m ARE directly interchangable/compatible... Distances, scales and sizes will all be the same - the only difference is that, where you had one 10x10m "groundcell" before, now you'll have Four 5x5m groundcells... Because it's just a direct replacement like this, you should find that any object placement/roads, etc you've already made should be unaffected, so although it's best to make these sort of decisions at the beginning of a project, you should be able to change your mind even at this stage without too much trouble... If you have L3DT, then it's ideal for this sort of job, although I've noticed a slight "bug" in my version when I do this procedure - I'll mention that below - it's not a big deal, and it may only happen in my version since I haven't updated in a while... * Export your heightmap from Visitor - Project > Export Terrain into Picture.... When presented with the "Export Into Image" popup window - WRITE DOWN THE TOP SET OF MAX/MIN NUMBERS... * Load into L3DT - when asked for max/min values - use the numbers you wrote down..... * From the topline menu > Operations > Heightfield > Resize heightfield = set to 4096x4096 * At this point you'll be asked if you want to retain the same physical map size - which you DO, so say "Yes" and the horizontal scale (groundcell size) will automatically be reduced to half the previous size * This is where the "bug" appears in my L3DT... It seems the heightfield resize HAS taken place, but if I look at my display, and the scalebar below - it LOOKS like it's actually made the heightfield BIGGER - as if I'd said "NO" in the previous dialog. * If I now go to... Topline menu > Operations > Heightfield > Change horizontal scale, it reports that my horizontal scale (groundcell size) is still 10 meters! However - if I set that horizontal scale value to 5 meters and click OK, L3DT's display seems to "catch up" - no processing takes place - it just resaves the heightfield internally and the display and scale bar at the bottom of the screen change appropriately... I'm pretty sure this is just a display issue, and quite possibly only happens in my oddball old L3DT version... In general, L3DT makes a good job of this sort of scaling procedure... * Now export the new heightfield - as an .xyz file - and you should be ready to import into Visitor... There's an additional complexity to watch out for - at the moment - with 4096x4096 heightmaps... The infamous "4096" bug... (There's a reasonably good summary of what that's about in THIS POST... Notice how that link takes you back to the Arma 2 section? That's 'cause it's basically an Arma 2 Visitor 3 PE bug - we're all hoping that, when we finally get an appropriate Arma 3 Visitor, this severely limiting bug will no longer be present, but right now, with the tools currently at our disposal, it's something you should be aware of that affects 4096x4096 heightmaps specifically... More generally, ZeroG's advice is well worth noting... Smaller cell sizes are an increasing trend, even with BI themselves... Proving Grounds (A2) and even Stratis (A3) are around 4 meter cell size, and manage some pretty terrific small scale height variations, making them an absolute bitch and/or pretty awesome fun to play on! At the same time, you really need to keep performance issues in mind, and it's generally not a brilliant idea to go much below 3 or 4 meters cellsize, particularly on a map which will be carrying a lot of objects or vegetation... *EDIT* Thanks to Jakerod on the Skype Terrainguys Channel, we now know that this L3DT "bug" is simply the display not "refreshing" properly - the operations DO take place, as I suspected, but it seems you might be able to skip the step I suggested above - going thru the motions of changing the Horizontal scale just to "jolt" L3DT into refreshing.... Using CTRL + R, or from the Topline menu - View > Refresh should accomplish the same thing... Thanks to Jakerod for that Important Safety Tip! :) B Edited February 1, 2014 by Bushlurker Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1para{god-father} 105 Posted February 1, 2014 Ahhh many many thanks ! OK L3DT all worked great (got the same bug so thanks for letting me know !) - I presume i am correct i have made a new project as well and set Terrain Grid Size 4096x 4096 Terrain cell size to 5.0 What is the best satellite grid to use i was using 96 before & texture layers was 40x40 Can i use the same or would you change ? (my sat&mask was 20480 x 20480 ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bushlurker 46 Posted February 1, 2014 Go for the same settings if possible...In the "Calculator" section - enter 20480 as the sat size and accept whatever values it offers, then in the Base Texture Layer size parameter, use the nearest to 40x40m you can get that still comes up flagged as "valid"... B Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1para{god-father} 105 Posted February 6, 2014 OK so i have it all imported and it all works, and the stream / verg are much smaller which i was going for but now :( when i look at the map in game it is not correct https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/16187488/107410_2013-08-09_00001.png satellite grid is @ 96 which it was in the past and what it is telling me to do - before i keep changing things it is that or is it the Texture layers i have tried 40x40 20x20 - was not sure is it better to be higher or lower ? Any thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
m1lkm8n 411 Posted February 6, 2014 Take a look at this thread http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?171293-Terrain-tiles-not-displayed-as-they-should I for one have tried this and it seemed to work a bit but once running around on the terrain I noticed my ground textures weren't blended together very we'll anymore. It may just be we need the new visitor. But try and see what happened. You'll need to reimport your sat and mask again after the change. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1para{god-father} 105 Posted February 7, 2014 Thanks but still no Joy :( was all working @ 2048x2048 x 10 So do you think it is the Texture layers causing it or the Satalite Grid Getting to the point i wish i never change !:( Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egilsandfeld 7 Posted February 15, 2014 I guess it (in a distant future) should be possible to do trenches like this: Basically import a trench and insert into the ground, which carves away the grid at that spot. But yeah, this may never come for Visitor or Arma. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
