Patriotism

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Col. Kurtz @ Sep. 02 2002,05:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll give you MY reason why i think the US gets knocked so much. It is as Paratrooper/Artillery Gunner said.<span id='postcolor'>

Officer! I am not a gunner! Well officer cadet anyway.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If my country can create conditions under which i can live however i need to be happy, then i love my country. <span id='postcolor'> I agree with this to a great extent but I also feel that patriotism is a less rational state of mind, we just love our countries.

[Sam Samson 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ Sep. 02 2002,12:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">9--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 01 2002,229)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">seems like a lot of folks are out knocking the US for patriotism these days. maybe they mistake patriotism for nationalism.

I think patriotism and nationalism are not the same.

nationalism is just plain foolish.

why would any nation in and of itself be better than any other one? the blood of all runs but red. a canadian is not better than a yank who happens to have been born across the border. and a frenchman is not by some mysterial act of nature intrinsically better than a german.

what makes any nation great is the rule of sensible law, rulers installed by the people that have their eye on the benefit of the people. (that have at least their mind on what they think that is.)

what makes a nation great are the principles it was founded on and the institutions founded upon those principles.

ultimately that seems to have a lot to do with religion, since your principles spring from your faith, no matter what that would be in particular. (even the credo in science would belong under that heading, as it formulates principles too).

so, is the US wrong to be patriots of their nation? are their institutions and founding principles moronic enough to warrant perpetual knocking?

Is patriotic synonymous with idiotic?

whaddayathink?

<span id='postcolor'>

You are wrong, nationalism have nothing to do with race and color. It has to do with culture and laws.<span id='postcolor'>

I see.

would you please point out the lines where I talk about race and color? and how would you define patriotism?

maybe you want to reread my post.

or are you just suffering from a case of bad temper today?

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels.

--Mark Twain <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.

--Bertrand Russell <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it

--George Bernard Shaw

<span id='postcolor'>

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 02 2002,14:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ Sep. 02 2002,12:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ Sep. 01 2002,22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">seems like a lot of folks are out knocking the US for patriotism these days. maybe they mistake patriotism for nationalism.

I think patriotism and nationalism are not the same.

nationalism is just plain foolish.

why would any nation in and of itself be better than any other one? the blood of all runs but red. a canadian is not better than a yank who happens to have been born across the border. and a frenchman is not by some mysterial act of nature intrinsically better than a german.

what makes any nation great is the rule of sensible law, rulers installed by the people that have their eye on the benefit of the people. (that have at least their mind on what they think that is.)

what makes a nation great are the principles it was founded on and the institutions founded upon those principles.

ultimately that seems to have a lot to do with religion, since your principles spring from your faith, no matter what that would be in particular. (even the credo in science would belong under that heading, as it formulates principles too).

so, is the US wrong to be patriots of their nation? are their institutions and founding principles moronic enough to warrant perpetual knocking?

Is patriotic synonymous with idiotic?

whaddayathink?

<!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

You are wrong, nationalism have nothing to do with race and color. It has to do with culture and laws.<span id='postcolor'>

I see.

would you please point out the lines where I talk about race and color? and how would you define patriotism?

maybe you want to reread my post.

or are you just suffering from a case of bad temper today?  <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">nationalism is just plain foolish.

why would any nation in and of itself be better than any other one? the blood of all runs but red. a canadian is not better than a yank who happens to have been born across the border. and a frenchman is not by some mysterial act of nature intrinsically better than a german.

<span id='postcolor'>

In this part you are talking about the people in the various countries. Either you have misunderstood what Nationalism is all about, or you fail to tell me exactly what you mean?

Nationalism is about love or respect for ones nation, not civilisation. If a person is a nationalist he can be just as positive towards refugees and newcomers as a non-nationalist. Infact, Nationalists tend to want to share ones values with other nations, and arent as aggressive as patriotism tend to be. Therefor, if one is a nationalism, they will not accept too much interference with other cultures, they are happy with what their country is. Other persons are of course welcomed to feal the "glory" from ones country since thats what you feal of your country.

Again, nationalism is about the culture and laws in a country, not the people in it.

[Cloney 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ Sep. 02 2002,13:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Its these 3rd world nations that piss me off. They seem to be bent on fucking us over at every opportunity. I say screw 'em and let them starve<span id='postcolor'>

I dont hope every Americans think like this. How can you think like this, when you sit in you room with your computer and you probably have a fridge full of food downstares? Its humans god damnit, not just some "3rd-world greedy bastards", that want everything for themselves..... like you.

Thinking like that makes you no better than the terrorists that is burning their farmers fields.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok, I was a bit overcome by emotions there. Sorry about that espectro

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SirLoins @ Sep. 02 2002,01:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">After reading many, many post on this forum, I find the amount of critisizm toward the USA alarming.

I am American. I am very patriotic. Just because the world saw the amount of flag wavers after 9-11 come out of the woodwork, doesn't mean that we aren't patriotic at other times. That's the way we are. Do you all in other countries have a need to show your patriotism, if so, how do you do it?

Flag waving, military service, public service? I for one would like to learn.

We may seem placid on the surface, but when we are viciously attacked as on 9-11......watch out.

The replies about the percentage of voters have absolutely nothing to do with patriotism. You see, that's one thing about living in a free society, you have the right to be an idiot. I for one vote for everything from Mayor to President.

You all must realize, being the USA isn't an easy job. I don't mean that in a pompus way either. I don't know if any elected president could ever please all the people of the world. That would be impossible.

We receive more critisizm from other countries because we do more for the world than the world combined does for us. I don't mean to imply that other countries don't help out, but I can't think of any that does as much as the United States. We don't ask for much in return, maybe a thank you once in a while would be in order, instead of consitant second guessing about USA policy. We can't please everyone.

I look forward to discussions with all of you.

Thanks<span id='postcolor'>

1. Glad it's alarming.

2. Oh, you do soo much for the world... greedy bastards in power?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> We don't ask for much in return, maybe a thank you once in a while would be in order, instead of consitant second guessing about USA policy. We can't please everyone.<span id='postcolor'>

You don't want my thank you pal!

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ Sep. 02 2002,02:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ralph, We host the UN, Isn't that enough?<span id='postcolor'>

It is for you to decide if you want out of the UN, but you agreed to pay your share, so it's too late now for excuses.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Ya got two of us Wobbles, or whatever, now.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bn880 @ Sep. 02 2002,20:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">6--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Cloney @ Sep. 02 2002,026)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ralph, We host the UN, Isn't that enough?<span id='postcolor'>

It is for you to decide if you want out of the UN, but you agreed to pay your share, so it's too late now for excuses.<span id='postcolor'>

Quite, I am always amazed by American's hostility towards such a benign institution as the UN.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Sep. 02 2002,15:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels.

--Mark Twain <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.

--Bertrand Russell <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it

--George Bernard Shaw

<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

"Old and stupid quotes written by a bunch of opinionated old men do nothing to win an argument."

-Assault (CAN)

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Sep. 02 2002,22:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Sep. 02 2002,15:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels.

--Mark Twain <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.

--Bertrand Russell <span id='postcolor'>

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it

--George Bernard Shaw

<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

"Old and stupid quotes written by a bunch of opinionated old men do nothing to win an argument."

-Assault (CAN)

<span id='postcolor'>

I agree. They are glib, trite and frankly untrue.

[SirLoins 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1. Glad it's alarming.

2. Oh, you do soo much for the world... greedy bastards in power?<span id='postcolor'>

I guess we could take all of our money and "power" and keep it at home. But you see we are better than that. How about some constructive talk and leave the first grade rhetoric for you and your close friends.

At least you acknowledge we are in power. Would you rather Saddam be in power?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You don't want my thank you pal! <span id='postcolor'>

No, I don't really want anything from you.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SirLoins @ Sep. 02 2002,19:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1. Glad it's alarming.

2. Oh, you do soo much for the world... greedy bastards in power?<span id='postcolor'>

I guess we could take all of our money and "power" and keep it at home. But you see we are better than that. How about some constructive talk and leave the first grade rhetoric for you and your close friends.

At least you acknowledge we are in power. Would you rather Saddam be in power?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You don't want my thank you pal! <span id='postcolor'>

No, I don't really want anything from you.<span id='postcolor'>

How often do we have to construct for you Americans, just read previous posts that included USA on this forum.

You'd better not want anything, I not in a good mood today.

[SirLoins 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How often do we have to construct for you Americans, just read previous posts that included USA on this forum.

You'd better not want anything, I not in a good mood today<span id='postcolor'>

If Americans are not welcome on this forum then I expect the Mods to do something about it.

As for your mood, I could care less. I'm not here to get into a flame war with you, but to discuss issues in an adult like manner. I hope you will do the same

[Balschoiw 0]

back to thread :

I am german. Fact.

If I go out on the streets and wave the german flag and tell the peops that i am proud to be a german, they will name me a nazi. WW2 is long over ?

To the US locally "hosting" UN .

When do you plan to pay your open bills at UN ? :-)

In general I cant be proud of the land I was born in. Why ? The country was there when I was born and nobody asked me if I wanted to be US, German, French, Zulu or whatever...

I did not found this country I only contribute to it with money and personal engagement. I would do this in any country where I was born in, but there is nothing for me to be proud of. Get the point ?

Patriotism tends a lot to nationalism in my oppinion. This is shown in disrespecting other countries people or religion, skin color or whatever. I guess the right attitude for the 21´st century would be a "Cosmopolitan" one.

Canada made a great step today by signing the Kyoto protocols. US can´t breath patriotism either, so a bit more cosmopolitan thinking would improve the whole world.

just my 2 cents.

[Frizbee 0]

Patriotism is the Virtue of the Viscious, according to Oscar Wilde.

[von Schnitzel 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Sep. 03 2002,03:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Patriotism tends a lot to nationalism in my oppinion. This is shown in disrespecting other countries people or religion, skin color or whatever. I guess the right attitude for the 21´st century would be a "Cosmopolitan" one.<span id='postcolor'>

I think one can be a patriot and 'cosmo' at the same time...they are not terms that exclude each other. A 'good patriot' is not bloated with the flag-waving pride of his beloved country. Instead he is proud of his roots, language, history etc. but also sees himself in a wider context as a 'world citizen' with respect to other nationalities, races, opinions etc.

My opinion is that everybody who calls himself true 'Cosmopolitan' still has a patriot/nation symphatizer living inside although hidden. It can appear in most smallest of things, like being glad that the hotel you booked in has 'Deutsche Welle' TV channel installed

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (von Schnitzel @ Sep. 03 2002,09:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Balschoiw @ Sep. 03 2002,03:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Patriotism tends a lot to nationalism in my oppinion. This is shown in disrespecting other countries people or religion, skin color or whatever. I guess the right attitude for the 21´st century would be a "Cosmopolitan" one.<span id='postcolor'>

I think one can be a patriot and 'cosmo' at the same time...they are not terms that exclude each other. A 'good patriot' is not bloated with the flag-waving pride of his beloved country. Instead he is proud of his roots, language, history etc. but also sees himself in a wider context as a 'world citizen' with respect to other nationalities, races, opinions etc.

My opinion is that everybody who calls himself true 'Cosmopolitan' still has a patriot/nation symphatizer living inside although hidden. It can appear in most smallest of things, like being glad that the hotel you booked in has 'Deutsche Welle' TV channel installed <span id='postcolor'>

hooray! now this is what i wanted to hear!

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 0]

I'm proud of my nation because of the ideas it was created on.

I am ashamed of my nation when I look torwards the future.

Right now America is the only super power. Many people can't come to grips with the fact they cannot stop the US from doing anything. It upsets them. I can relate because I get upset when I think I can't stop the US from doing lots of things I don't like.

But when people insult the country I live in because of their frustrations, I tend to get a little angry, because they are essentially insulting me. And everyone gets angry when they are insulted.

So I guess my point is, people tend to think of their countries as an avatar of them and that is what causes problems. I suffer from that problem.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ Sep. 03 2002,11:06)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But when people insult the country I live in because of their frustrations, I tend to get a little angry, because they are essentially insulting me.  <span id='postcolor'>

No they are not.

[von Schnitzel 0]

US is the only superpower with the muscle to interfere with global issues with credible military force (with UK on the smaller scale). So Americans naturally get the most criticism for their world policing. That's the way it is until if/when EU gets enough balls to do the same...

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Someday, some1 is gonna burn in their own ignorance.... september 11th any1?

[von Schnitzel 0]

200,000 people in Bosnia 'burned' for world's ignorance (lack of military intervention until summer 1995). 3 years of massacre and EU did nothing.

[SirLoins 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> Posted: Sep. 03 2002,13:19

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

US is the only superpower with the muscle to interfere with global issues with credible military force (with UK on the smaller scale). So Americans naturally get the most criticism for their world policing. That's the way it is until if/when EU gets enough balls to do the same... <span id='postcolor'>

Here Here.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SirLoins @ Sep. 02 2002,20:58)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If Americans are not welcome on this forum then I expect the Mods to do something about it.<span id='postcolor'>

You should read what I said again, no one says you are not welcome here. I never said anyone is not welcome to the forums.

And BTW, adults have moods and discuss things in the way I do. I'm giving it to you straight, and I know you have not seen anything like it.