A-143 Buzzard Far too Slow / Weak

[merc591 10]

I don't know why you all think that an increase in speed from 650Km/h max level to 800-900Km/h max level would make the plane warp over the island. Also, balancing has no place in Arma.

i dont know how your flying the buzzard but max speed in game i can get it up to like 860 if im not engaging anybody engagement speed for me like 430-470 and gun runs are like 640 so i dont see how your having anyproblem making this aircraft get up to speed

---------- Post added at 03:35 ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 ----------

Well, the A-10 fires at something like 80 rounds a second, and puts down a "cloud" of bullets about 20 feet in radius. Most MBT's have weak top armor of a little over 100mm RHA. So you've got definite engine kill, messed up tracks, dead periscopes, main gun, external machine guns, and usually penetration of the tank in multiple places. Its been talked to death on the DCS forums and I'm still not sure if there is crew kill or not. The people who know have been kind of vague on it. Probably dead driver. Maybe back turret penetration. I would think the side would be too strong. The round is like a "magnum" version of the 30mm, having more power than most 30mm's due to longer casing and longer gun barrels. At least, that's what I can see.

---------- Post added at 03:20 ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 ----------

The A-10 only has a top speed of like 450km/hr and it has two powerful turbofan engines.

the thing about the a-10 is not all its rounds are that magnum type an a-10 combat load is arranged in a specific order first HE High Explosive to get rid of any reactive armor on the hit zone then next in line is AP to dig through the tanks armor about 3 of those followed by more HE and Incendiary to destory the inside of the tank its very percise

take into account the a-10 is heavily armored and can take multiple AA missiles and still fly back to a nearby air force base thus why you only get so much lift from that a-10s engines

[7mary3 10]

the thing about the a-10 is not all its rounds are that magnum type an a-10 combat load is arranged in a specific order first HE High Explosive to get rid of any reactive armor on the hit zone then next in line is AP to dig through the tanks armor about 3 of those followed by more HE and Incendiary to destory the inside of the tank its very percise

take into account the a-10 is heavily armored and can take multiple AA missiles and still fly back to a nearby air force base thus why you only get so much lift from that a-10s engines

Well, the rounds are longer than normal 30mm say like on the Black Sharks 2A42 30mm autocannon. In other words, they have more punch. And its 4 rounds depleted uranium then one round HE (Combat Mix). The round can only pierce about 100mm RHA. We've had long talks about this on the DCS forums. Seems the real A-10 pilots aren't really sure about where one of those rounds can pierce a tank except on the top ( or they're not talking :) ). A lot of tanks RHA values are still guesses at best. Most say its just a disability kill. The very back of the tank ( engine ) would be most vulnerable. In DCS ( A-10C Warthog ) if you hit a tank with a 1 second burst, that tanks probably toast. But I think DCS just uses a hit point system as well. Now the GAU-8 will penetrate most APC's, because their armor is less than 100mm RHA.

And sorry to tell you, but the only armor on the A-10 is the cockpit ( protection up to 23mm ) and I think lesser armor on the engine cowlings ( though it never seems to save me ). Probably only kevlar good against 7.62. If you get hit with an Igla or Stinger in the engine, its toast. Most of the rest of the aircraft can take hits, because its all fuel and empty shell. The fuel tanks are self sealing and designed to take fire ( not sure exactly how, I think its in the manual ). As for weight, most of its from the gun and weapons, though I have managed to fly back to base once with a shattered rudder and half of one of the wings shot off. DCS does a great simulation of the aircraft. If you want to know about the A-10C, you should talk to some of the real pilots on the DCS forums. I think Paul Kirri ( one of the mods ) is a RL A-10C pilot. If you want to learn about flying, I highly recommend DCS: (Insert Aircraft).

Edited November 25, 2013 by 7mary3

[merc591 10]

Well, the rounds are longer than normal 30mm say like on the Black Sharks 2A42 30mm autocannon. In other words, they have more punch. And its 4 rounds depleted uranium then one round HE (Combat Mix). The round can only pierce about 100mm RHA. We've had long talks about this on the DCS forums. Seems the real A-10 pilots aren't really sure about where one of those rounds can pierce a tank except on the top ( or they're not talking :) ). A lot of tanks RHA values are still guesses at best. Most say its just a disability kill. The very back of the tank ( engine ) would be most vulnerable. In DCS ( A-10C Warthog ) if you hit a tank with a 1 second burst, that tanks probably toast. But I think DCS just uses a hit point system as well. Now the GAU-8 will penetrate most APC's, because their armor is less than 100mm RHA.

And sorry to tell you, but the only armor on the A-10 is the cockpit ( protection up to 23mm ) and I think lesser armor on the engine cowlings ( though it never seems to save me ). Probably only kevlar good against 7.62. If you get hit with an Igla or Stinger in the engine, its toast. Most of the rest of the aircraft can take hits, because its all fuel and empty shell. The fuel tanks are self sealing and designed to take fire ( not sure exactly how, I think its in the manual ). As for weight, most of its from the gun and weapons, though I have managed to fly back to base once with a shattered rudder and half of one of the wings shot off. DCS does a great simulation of the aircraft. If you want to know about the A-10C, you should talk to some of the real pilots on the DCS forums. I think Paul Kirri ( one of the mods ) is a RL A-10C pilot. If you want to learn about flying, I highly recommend DCS: (Insert Aircraft).

i meant damage to the wings and the main body mass not the engine cowling the a-10 can survive and get back to base on a damaged engine but on one engine its going down i dont have the picture anymore but there was an a-10 in the middile east which took several strela rockets from insurgents and survived it was more holes than aircraft at that point but it got back to base and im talking about a different load for the a-10 depleted uranium is used less by nato because of the media bitching that we were poisoning the civillians and after a full survey of hte areas fired on hte depleted uranium dust form the shells has no effect if you ingest it from either crop absorption or being close the the target area.

EDIT im not saying eat pure uranium dust either i can already hear the trolls lining up XD

[UltimateBawb 1]

i dont know how your flying the buzzard but max speed in game i can get it up to like 860 if im not engaging anybody engagement speed for me like 430-470 and gun runs are like 640 so i dont see how your having anyproblem making this aircraft get up to speed

---------- Post added at 03:35 ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 ----------

the thing about the a-10 is not all its rounds are that magnum type an a-10 combat load is arranged in a specific order first HE High Explosive to get rid of any reactive armor on the hit zone then next in line is AP to dig through the tanks armor about 3 of those followed by more HE and Incendiary to destory the inside of the tank its very percise

take into account the a-10 is heavily armored and can take multiple AA missiles and still fly back to a nearby air force base thus why you only get so much lift from that a-10s engines

I've never gotten above 710Km/h level, and even that took about 10Km max thrust and no maneuvering. Can you find an actual video of 860Km/h level?

[jgbtl292 0]

lot of fun while playing with 1500 kmh flying - the island was streamed ! the limit has its useful :d:#

its not a jet simulator ^^ it has its basis them jet sims has a very very low object compactness per km²

[merc591 10]

I've never gotten above 710Km/h level, and even that took about 10Km max thrust and no maneuvering. Can you find an actual video of 860Km/h level?

i cant find any videos of it but i did it in multiplayer once right after i took off from the airfieldi dunno maybe i had a slight downward angle

my point is though its not as bad an aircraft as everyone is making it out to be its certainly not a f-18 or f-22 but its ok for the size of the islands

[progamer 14]

Probably once again the tank drivers went to elite sniper school. :j:

The Israeli Merkava tank that Blufor has, in real life has Fire control systems that are designed to hit aircraft. But this has no place on Opfors tank.

---------- Post added at 07:21 ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 ----------

i cant find any videos of it but i did it in multiplayer once right after i took off from the airfieldi dunno maybe i had a slight downward angle

my point is though its not as bad an aircraft as everyone is making it out to be its certainly not a f-18 or f-22 but its ok for the size of the islands

You guys a referring to the landmass size. And fail to realize that the oceans around the landmass are infinite!

So your point is invalid! :)

[merc591 10]

The Israeli Merkava tank that Blufor has, in real life has Fire control systems that are designed to hit aircraft. But this has no place on Opfors tank.

---------- Post added at 07:21 ---------- Previous post was at 07:19 ----------

You guys a referring to the landmass size. And fail to realize that the oceans around the landmass are infinite!

So your point is invalid! :)

and you are failing to realize that the game borders dont give a FUCK how much water their is around them :P

[progamer 14]

and you are failing to realize that the game borders dont give a FUCK how much water their is around them :P

You mean the editor? Then yes that's a problem with the editor. But I can fly infinitely in any direction until I run out of fuel and crashed.

[-Gews- 1]

Clearly the plane is far too slow. Instead of excuses like "it's always been that way", "balancing", "map is too small", etc - just. make. the. plane. faster.

Fiat CR42 can go 440 km/h.

It's absurd for L-159 to have a usual speed of 300 km/h.

Plane needs to be faster, end of discussion.

[progamer 14]

Clearly the plane is far too slow. Instead of excuses like "it's always been that way", "balancing", "map is too small", etc - just. make. the. plane. faster.

Fiat CR42 can go 440 km/h.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/aircraft-pictures/205346d1341246457t-italian-fighters-training-liaison-aircrafts-fiat-cr.42-falco-008.jpg

It's absurd for L-159 to have a usual speed of 300 km/h.

http://cavok.com.br/blog/wp-contents/uploads/2011/04/aero-l-159.jpg

Plane needs to be faster, end of discussion.

Realistically fast.

It's getting to the point were BI can't put off overhauling fixed wing aircraft anymore...

[merc591 10]

Realistically fast.

It's getting to the point were BI can't put off overhauling fixed wing aircraft anymore...

realistically fast?? the l-159 was slow as fuck so it has nothing to do with realisticness i dont see the point of getting a jet that can go 1200km/h doing one strafe and being at the end of the island 10 seconds after you pull up i have no doubt the next patch will contain planes and even if it doesnt (which i highly doubt) the a-10 the su-24 the typhoon and fa/18 are already out or like a month away from being released.

also you can set the cruising speed on hte aircraft your in just hold throttle until you reach hte speed you want let go of the throttle youll drop like 10km/h and you will maintain that constant speed

[antoineflemming 14]

realistically fast?? the l-159 was slow as fuck so it has nothing to do with realisticness i dont see the point of getting a jet that can go 1200km/h doing one strafe and being at the end of the island 10 seconds after you pull up i have no doubt the next patch will contain planes and even if it doesnt (which i highly doubt) the a-10 the su-24 the typhoon and fa/18 are already out or like a month away from being released.

also you can set the cruising speed on hte aircraft your in just hold throttle until you reach hte speed you want let go of the throttle youll drop like 10km/h and you will maintain that constant speed

Mods are never a solution to something that should be fixed in the vanilla game. BI just needs to make it realistic. Sure, some, like you, will complain, but it needs to be realistic. If the real-life version is faster, then they need to make this game version faster.

[merc591 10]

i get what you guys are getting at though i wouldnt mind a 100 or even 70km/h boost in the buzzard its just my opinon but i dont think its nessecary but if they had bigger maps i would definitely agree to a speed boost for the buzzard http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/681.gif i wouldnt mind a weapons boost either a 25 mil cannon or at least increased fire rate.

---------- Post added at 06:09 ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 ----------

Mods are never a solution to something that should be fixed in the vanilla game. BI just needs to make it realistic. Sure, some, like you, will complain, but it needs to be realistic. If the real-life version is faster, then they need to make this game version faster.

There will always be fights between realisticness and fun ill stand on the fun side thanks

---------- Post added at 06:14 ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 ----------

Edited November 25, 2013 by merc591

[progamer 14]

The buzzard flies now like it's fully loaded. What we need is its speed to be calculated based on weapon ammunition and amount of fuel.

---------- Post added at 08:22 ---------- Previous post was at 08:21 ----------

i get what you guys are getting at though i wouldnt mind a 100 or even 70km/h boost in the buzzard its just my opinon but i dont think its nessecary but if they had bigger maps i would definitely agree to a speed boost for the buzzard http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/681.gif i wouldnt mind a weapons boost either a 25 mil cannon or at least increased fire rate.

---------- Post added at 06:09 ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 ----------

There will always be fights between realisticness and fun ill stand on the fun side thanks

---------- Post added at 06:14 ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 ----------

also im not complaining i could give a fuck less if the buzzard got a speed boost it would make it easier to handle

Realism is fun. That's why Arma didn't die off as some crappy fps. Realism lets the player use real world knowledge and causes things to work as one would expect.

[merc591 10]

ok im gonna sum up my feeling on this thread i understand what you guys want a speed boost im not sure wether that stems from how hard the aircraft is to fly or if you hard core joystick fliers who want it as realistic as possible i feel that its fine the way it is a speed boost would make the aircraft easier to handle and id love that but i dont mind it either way i stilll have fun flying it so far in game the payloads dont really seem to effect the aircrafts ability to speed up turn and what not so even if you got the speed boost it would be like it wasnt even there once they fix the flight models add payload weightes accurately measure payload drag (if they do)

the top speed of an actual l-195 or buzzard is 936 KM/h

---------- Post added at 06:28 ---------- Previous post was at 06:25 ----------

The buzzard flies now like it's fully loaded. What we need is its speed to be calculated based on weapon ammunition and amount of fuel.

---------- Post added at 08:22 ---------- Previous post was at 08:21 ----------

Realism is fun. That's why Arma didn't die off as some crappy fps. Realism lets the player use real world knowledge and causes things to work as one would expect.

continuing the top quote i think some of the people here want an indefinite speed boost wether the plane is loaded or not they want it to fly a certain top speed and thats never going to happen

---------- Post added at 06:33 ---------- Previous post was at 06:28 ----------

is anyone else having fun with this debate very stimulating for my brain :cool:

[the_demongod 31]

Personally I think the problem with the Buzzard isn't that it flies to slow, it's that it handles like its wings are made of wet tissue paper. Like several others have said, it isn't hard to get the buzzard to moderately high speeds (as high as one would expect from an aircraft like it). The problem comes when you attempt to make a turn with a radius under 200km, and at any angle other than straight ahead or angled down. You shouldn't have your speed drop down to 200km/h and below (cars can go that fast for goodness sakes) just because you want to turn to fire at a target without having to loop all the way around stratus. If it didn't lose so much speed on turns and climbs, it would be a half-decent CAS plane.

[merc591 10]

Personally I think the problem with the Buzzard isn't that it flies to slow, it's that it handles like its wings are made of wet tissue paper. Like several others have said, it isn't hard to get the buzzard to moderately high speeds (as high as one would expect from an aircraft like it). The problem comes when you attempt to make a turn with a radius under 200km, and at any angle other than straight ahead or angled down. You shouldn't have your speed drop down to 200km/h and below (cars can go that fast for goodness sakes) just because you want to turn to fire at a target without having to loop all the way around stratus. If it didn't lose so much speed on turns and climbs, it would be a half-decent CAS plane.

as ive quoted about 3 times now its a training aircraft it was never meant to dogfight just to train pilots in the basics of flight with a cheap and easy to use aircraft if you want to push the aircraft past the bounds of realisticity then by all means :j:

---------- Post added at 06:52 ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 ----------

[/color]lets keep in mind who bought this plane and who its in service with as well AAf as in altis armed forces as in "militia" as in not that much money to spend as in buy the cheapest POS jet fighter you could find and strap bombs and missiles to it ;)

---------- Post added at 07:17 ---------- Previous post was at 06:52 ----------

Edited November 25, 2013 by merc591

[7mary3 10]

Yeah, it looks like a trainer.

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Edited November 25, 2013 by Foxhound
video removed, text removed

[spanishsurfer 58]

Agreed, make the jet faster and it's maneuverability could also be adjusted.

[timmo1982 10]

I think a lot of people are failing to take into account the effect that atmosphere has on airspeed and ground speed.

The atmosphere close to the ground is THICK and hence you will not be able to achieve anywhere near the aircraft's top speed at a couple of thousand feet- The top speed for an aircraft, especially a jet, are achieved at much higher altitudes where the atmosphere is thinner and drag is less. In the case of the CR42 above, the top speed is achieved at 20 000 feet! True, the L-159 has a max speed of 936 km/h (505 knots, 581 mph) at sea level in a clean config but that would at least be a bit slower loaded up.

Furthermore, turning an aircraft at high G consumes a LOT of energy, hence the saying 'turn and burn'- throttling up after turning is needed to recover energy/speed lost in a high G turn and there are G limits when carrying a combat load too.

Edited November 25, 2013 by timmo1982

[-Gews- 1]

I think a lot of people are failing to take into account the effect that atmosphere has on airspeed and ground speed.

The atmosphere close to the ground is THICK and hence you will not be able to achieve anywhere near the aircraft's top speed at a couple of thousand feet- The top speed for an aircraft, especially a jet, are achieved at much higher altitudes where the atmosphere is thinner and drag is less. In the case of the CR42 above, the top speed is achieved at 20 000 feet! True, the L-159 has a max speed of 936 km/h (505 knots, 581 mph) at sea level in a clean config but that would at least be a bit slower loaded up.

Furthermore, turning an aircraft at high G consumes a LOT of energy, hence the saying 'turn and burn'- throttling up after turning is needed to recover energy/speed lost in a high G turn and there are G limits when carrying a combat load too.

You are correct, I did not take that into consideration.

Still, comparing the numbers to some 1930s biplanes, this time at sea level:

Fiat CR42 = 342 km/h

Gloster Gladiator = 338 km/h

Poliparkov I-153 = 364 km/h

Henschel Hs 123 = 333 km/h

A jet airplane is faster than 1930s biplanes, clean configuration or not, it should be capable of far higher speeds.

[merc591 10]

Yeah, it looks like a trainer.

it IS a trainer aircraft

[-Gews- 1]

it IS a trainer aircraft

The L-159T1, T2 and B are trainers, the L-159A is a multipurpose aircraft, they replaced the rear seat in the A version with another fuel tank.

"The L-159 is much more than just an upgraded training aircraft, this becomes very clear when looking at its avionics suite. The L-159A is fitted with the Italian FIAR Grifo-L multimode pulse Doppler radar. The Grifo-L was selected in favour of the US Westinghouse AN/APG-68, in particular for its low installation requirements and maintainability. Plus the Grifo radar series has a proven record in various F-5 and Mirage fighter upgrades. The radar has five air-to-air modes including track-while-scan with four air combat submodes, and is able to track up to eight targets simultaneously. For ground and maritime attack it has nine air-to-surface modes. "

[merc591 10]

The L-159T1, T2 and B are trainers, the L-159A is a multipurpose aircraft, they replaced the rear seat in the A version with another fuel tank.

http://aviationintel.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/AIR_L-159_Top_Armed_lg.jpg

"The L-159 is much more than just an upgraded training aircraft, this becomes very clear when looking at its avionics suite. The L-159A is fitted with the Italian FIAR Grifo-L multimode pulse Doppler radar. The Grifo-L was selected in favour of the US Westinghouse AN/APG-68, in particular for its low installation requirements and maintainability. Plus the Grifo radar series has a proven record in various F-5 and Mirage fighter upgrades. The radar has five air-to-air modes including track-while-scan with four air combat submodes, and is able to track up to eight targets simultaneously. For ground and maritime attack it has nine air-to-surface modes. "

So your saying take a training aircraft give it a good radar and extended fueltanks and it makes it a dedicated aircraft ??

---------- Post added at 06:13 ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 ----------

the old saying (rudimentary) if you polish shit its still shit i still think they should have gone with the mig-21 bison its the fish bed with early 20th century upgrades currently in use in the airforce in india its better than the l-159 better loadout and it fits the greenbacks buying of outdated and decently cheap aircraft

---------- Post added at 06:23 ---------- Previous post was at 06:13 ----------

the f-5 tiger or f-104 starfighter would have been much better