European space agency

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 29 2002,22:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Mankind needs to get its act together and work together!<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe, but mankind only ever does great things while in competition. The first space race only came about because there was competition. Co-operation is best done from a position of equality, we need to match NASA first!

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,22:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 29 2002,22:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Mankind needs to get its act together and work together!<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe, but mankind only ever does great things while in competition. The first space race only came about because there was competition. Co-operation is best done from a position of equality, we need to match NASA first!<span id='postcolor'>

Wonderful attitude, Paratrooper!

You'd think that the economic self destruction of the Soviet Union would show exactly why we need to grow past that sort of competition! Nothing good came from the Cold War. massive amounts of money were spent for nothing more than 'keeping up with the joneses'.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 29 2002,22:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,22:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 29 2002,22:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Mankind needs to get its act together and work together!<span id='postcolor'>

Maybe, but mankind only ever does great things while in competition. The first space race only came about because there was competition. Co-operation is best done from a position of equality, we need to match NASA first!<span id='postcolor'>

Wonderful attitude, Paratrooper!

You'd think that the economic self destruction of the Soviet Union would show exactly why we need to grow past that sort of competition!  Nothing good came from the Cold War.  massive amounts of money were spent for nothing more than 'keeping up with the joneses'.<span id='postcolor'>

I disagree, we explored space, put a man on the moon! Developed the internet and modern communication, the nuclear submarine and many other things. A little more than keeping up with the Jones!

Don't misunderstand me,I don't want Europe to go into a space race as such, just have a space proramme to rival and compliment the American one, rather than let them have a monopoly on space. So things only get done if Washington wants to do them, which can't be good.

[Warin 0]

2--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,232)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I disagree, we explored space, put a man on the moon! Developed the internet and modern communication, the nuclear submarine and many other things. A little more than keeping up with the Jones!

Don't misunderstand me,I don't want Europe to go into a space race as such, just have a space proramme to rival and compliment the American one, rather than let them have a monopoly on space. So things only get done if Washington wants to do them, which can't be good.<span id='postcolor'>

Polluted the world, created enough nuclear arms to destroy the world several times over...

Not everything that happened in the cold war is a bad thing.  But I suspect that if you asked the average person in any of the former Soviet Union whether they are better off, we know what the answer would be!

Now, I will agree that the US has a serious case of cranial rectumitis.  Europe actually has a space program that rivals, and in some way surpasses the American one.  The only thing you dont have is a reusable launch vehicle.  So talk to the X-33 contractors.  The linear aerospike engine is a tested and proven technology.  All that is needed now is refinement of the fuel delivery system, and it would pretty much ready to go.  I am just saying that starting virtually from scratch would take a lot of money that could be better spent elsewhere.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 29 2002,23:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Now, I will agree that the US has a serious case of cranial rectumitis.  Erupoe actually has a space program that rivals, and in some way surpasses the American one.  The only thing you dont have is a reusable launch vehicle.  So talk to the X-33 contractors.  The linear aerospike engine is a tested and proven technology.  All that is needed now is refinement of the fuel delivery system, and it would pretty much ready to go.  I am just saying that starting virtually from scratch would take a lot of money that could be better spent elsewhere.<span id='postcolor'>

The cold war was I bad thing, I didn't say it wasn't but competition does usually get results, like the JSF project, the contractors have to do their best as their is someone to beat. You know how competition works anyway.

As for the shuttle, we have at least two designs of our own so we wont be starting from scratch. Hermes was discussed at the start of the thread.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,23:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for the shuttle, we have at least two designs of our own so we wont be starting from scratch. Hermes was discussed at the start of the thread.<span id='postcolor'>

The existing EU designs are all based on a conventional SRB system, similar to the US shuttle. All of those non reusable bits add to the cost. The cool part of the X-33 is that it's able to acheive orbit without the usre of a costly booster system. SSTO kicks ass!

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 29 2002,23:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,23:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for the shuttle, we have at least two designs of our own so we wont be starting from scratch. Hermes was discussed at the start of the thread.<span id='postcolor'>

The existing EU designs are all based on a conventional SRB system, similar to the US shuttle.  All of those non reusable bits add to the cost.  The cool part of the X-33 is that it's able to acheive orbit without the usre of a costly booster system. SSTO kicks ass!<span id='postcolor'>

Nope, ran put this up earlier:Hto

Hermes is also worth having.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,23:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 29 2002,23:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,23:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for the shuttle, we have at least two designs of our own so we wont be starting from scratch. Hermes was discussed at the start of the thread.<span id='postcolor'>

The existing EU designs are all based on a conventional SRB system, similar to the US shuttle.  All of those non reusable bits add to the cost.  The cool part of the X-33 is that it's able to acheive orbit without the usre of a costly booster system. SSTO kicks ass!<span id='postcolor'>

Nope, ran put this up earlier:Hto

Hermes is also worth having.<span id='postcolor'>

The difference is that that monstrosity never got past model stage. The X-33 is 86% complete in a prototype model.

I think it is obscene that anyone would try to develop from scratch when there are totally acceptable designs that already exist! Sometimes you have to eat nationalist pride for the sake of economic expediency! I'd far rather see an EU version of the X-33 flying in 4 years than wait the 10-15 years it would take to totally develop something new. As for Hermes, if it was a practical design, it would be in production now, wouldnt it?

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't misunderstand me,I don't want Europe to go into a space race as such, just have a space proramme to rival and compliment the American one, rather than let them have a monopoly on space. So things only get done if Washington wants to do them, which can't be good.<span id='postcolor'>

Total Space Launches 2001=59

US 24

Russia 23

Hardly a monopoly....  We do have a large chunk though.  This is why I think it is more important to let private companies launch their own rockets/ships.  Take the power out of the U.S. and Russian hands and put it into business (of course I say this now, in ten years when you have to go through either DaimlerChrysler or McDonalds to get into space I'll be singing a different tune )

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 29 2002,23:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,23:27)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ Aug. 29 2002,23:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,23:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As for the shuttle, we have at least two designs of our own so we wont be starting from scratch. Hermes was discussed at the start of the thread.<span id='postcolor'>

The existing EU designs are all based on a conventional SRB system, similar to the US shuttle.  All of those non reusable bits add to the cost.  The cool part of the X-33 is that it's able to acheive orbit without the usre of a costly booster system. SSTO kicks ass!<span id='postcolor'>

Nope, ran put this up earlier:Hto

Hermes is also worth having.<span id='postcolor'>

The difference is that that monstrosity never got past model stage.  The X-33 is 86% complete in a prototype model.

I think it is obscene that anyone would try to develop from scratch when there are totally acceptable designs that already exist!  Sometimes you have to eat nationalist pride for the sake of economic expediency!  I'd far rather see an EU version of the X-33 flying in 4 years than wait the 10-15 years it would take to totally develop something new.  As for Hermes, if it was a practical design, it would be in production now, wouldnt it? <span id='postcolor'>

Maybe the x-33 is worth looking into.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hermes, if it was a practical design, it would be in production now, wouldnt it? <span id='postcolor'> You know that politics and funding have nothing to do with the practicality of the design!

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Othin @ Aug. 29 2002,23:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't misunderstand me,I don't want Europe to go into a space race as such, just have a space proramme to rival and compliment the American one, rather than let them have a monopoly on space. So things only get done if Washington wants to do them, which can't be good.<span id='postcolor'>

Total Space Launches 2001=59

US 24

Russia 23

Hardly a monopoly....  We do have a large chunk though.  This is why I think it is more important to let private companies launch their own rockets/ships.  Take the power out of the U.S. and Russian hands and put it into business (of course I say this now, in ten years when you have to go through either DaimlerChrysler or McDonalds to get into space I'll be singing a different tune )<span id='postcolor'>

I don't want space exploration in the hans of peple like Coca-Cola and Ford! I want the national interests and the interest of science to take prescidence. Besides if the returns aren't instant or apparent business isn't interested.

[Othin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,14:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Othin @ Aug. 29 2002,23:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't misunderstand me,I don't want Europe to go into a space race as such, just have a space proramme to rival and compliment the American one, rather than let them have a monopoly on space. So things only get done if Washington wants to do them, which can't be good.<span id='postcolor'>

Total Space Launches 2001=59

US 24

Russia 23

Hardly a monopoly....  We do have a large chunk though.  This is why I think it is more important to let private companies launch their own rockets/ships.  Take the power out of the U.S. and Russian hands and put it into business (of course I say this now, in ten years when you have to go through either DaimlerChrysler or McDonalds to get into space I'll be singing a different tune )<span id='postcolor'>

I don't want space exploration in the hans of peple like Coca-Cola and Ford! I want the national interests and the interest of science to take prescidence. Besides if the returns aren't instant or apparent business isn't interested.<span id='postcolor'>

I was being facetious. I don't think it should go from a government monopoly to a business one. I think when private business does get into space you will see alot of resource sharing. And obviously business IS interested if you look at that link.

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Othin @ Aug. 29 2002,23:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Don't misunderstand me,I don't want Europe to go into a space race as such, just have a space proramme to rival and compliment the American one, rather than let them have a monopoly on space. So things only get done if Washington wants to do them, which can't be good.<span id='postcolor'>

Total Space Launches 2001=59

US 24

Russia 23

Hardly a monopoly....  We do have a large chunk though.  This is why I think it is more important to let private companies launch their own rockets/ships.  Take the power out of the U.S. and Russian hands and put it into business (of course I say this now, in ten years when you have to go through either DaimlerChrysler or McDonalds I'll be singing a different tune <!--emo& )<span id='postcolor'>

The US is propping up the Russian space agency. Without US money, I doubt they would have had as many launches as they have.

The Russians have realized that some commercialization (Tito, Shuttleworth, N'Sync boy) can help prop up a system that is a drain on a financially over taxed system. NASA seems to think that private money is a sin, wheras it's really the salvation of the space program. I dont think turnng complete control over to corporations is the answer, but there needs to be some some shift in the way it's done.

[Col. Kurtz 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,17:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Aug. 29 2002,178)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ Aug. 29 2002,17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Aug. 29 2002,17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">lol defence ......... tell to the queen to buy some famas <!--emo&<!--emo&<span id='postcolor'>

I'm alot more pro-Erope than I used to be.; but Britain will never use a French rifle! German yes, French never! When would we hear the end of it?!  <span id='postcolor'>

it's the germans who bombed london in 1940 though ....... it's the germans who injured 2 generations of tommies ......  <span id='postcolor'>

Yes, thats why we trust their weapons.

*Psst! Don't mention the war!*<span id='postcolor'>

Dont mention the war? My Grandfathers house was hit by a German bomb during the Battle of Britain, and it was totally wiped out! He lost all his possesions! H elost everything..... ...and you dont want tme to mention the bloody war? He, along with my other Grandfather served, and then came back tottally screwed up after fighting the Germans and made bad parents! And whats all this tlak of a more powerful europe? Are feeling threatened by the Americans? Helen Clark better not make NZ break away from Britain, or youll come and invade us again

[R. Gerschwarzenge 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (cam0flage @ Aug. 29 2002,17:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A little bit offtopic but still space related, i've been spotting shooting stars a lot lately. Anyone got any good explanation for this?

// cam0flage<span id='postcolor'>

http://www.ursa.fi/extra/taivaalla/tamakuu/meteorit.html

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (cam0flage @ Aug. 29 2002,17: 03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A little bit offtopic but still space related, i've been spotting shooting stars a lot lately. Anyone got any good explanation for this?

<span id='postcolor'>

Boredom. Geekness.

[ran 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (habdoel @ Aug. 29 2002,17:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but i think there must be a sollution to make frites in space <span id='postcolor'>

make liquid frites .... something like concentred frites juice or something like that ...

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Aug. 30 2002,14:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (habdoel @ Aug. 29 2002,17:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but i think there must be a sollution to make frites in space <span id='postcolor'>

make liquid frites .... something like concentred frites juice or something like that ...<span id='postcolor'>

I think you;re confused, Ran. He said frites, as in frequent fryer.

[ran 0]

i know i know

[ran 0]

could be good actually ..... like mashed potatoes , but fried mashed potatoes ...... hell yeah , why not

[R. Gerschwarzenge 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ran @ Aug. 30 2002,15:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">..... like mashed potatoes , but fried mashed potatoes .<span id='postcolor'>

Mix in some more milk and spices and fry it. It's tasty.

[ran 0]

yeah heheheheheh

[ran 0]

it reminds me an alsacian recipe .....

[habdoel 0]

nothing stops us belgians to go in space! euh wait...beer, we need beer in space

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (habdoel @ Aug. 30 2002,15:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">nothing stops us belgians to go in space! euh wait...beer, we need beer in space <span id='postcolor'>

Not any old stuff either!

I think the ESA is one of the most promising aspects of European co-operation.