AI group cohesion deteriorates in prolonged firefight

[mr_centipede 31]

Another AI issue I find could be improved upon:

I find AI groups will lose cohesion in a prolonged firefight. They will break formation and as a result AI unit tends to be alone and becomes easy pickings.

Here's how it happens.

When in contact, AI group leader will issue engage command to its subordinate and the subordinates will carry out the order and break formation. Then after carrying out the order, assuming new target is detected near the target, the AI leader will issue to attack this new target to the closest friendly. Thus in prolong firefight, the subordinates will become more and more disperse and further away from the squad leader.

My proposal:

After successfully engaged an enemy, the subordinate must return formation first before the AI leader can give new engage order. This way AI wont wander off too far away from the squad leader and make them more deadly

Here's my ticket

http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=15866

[sbua16 19]

It's been the same deal for the last 12 years, I doubt we'll get any major overhauls for at least another 3 iterations of ArmA. Heck, even the inferior, ill fate OFP: dragon what's-it-called had better unit cohesion, and a semblance of squad/platoon hierarchy.

[EDcase 87]

...My proposal:

After successfully engaged an enemy, the subordinate must return formation first before the AI leader can give new engage order. This way AI wont wander off too far away from the squad leader and make them more deadly[/url]

I agree in principle but I don't think its easy to fix. In real life unit cohesion is reduced in prolonged combat situations.

If an AI returns to formation after engaging an enemy, the squad leader would send him off to attack the next target anyway.

Perhaps there should be a parameter for maximum radius an AI can move autonomously from his squad. IE you can order him anywhere but he won't wander or engage further than that distance.

[mr_centipede 31]

Perhaps there should be a parameter for maximum radius an AI can move autonomously from his squad. IE you can order him anywhere but he won't wander or engage further than that distance.

That would be fine too, if the unit wander off too far away from the squad leader, lets say 400m, then the squad leader will order it to return to formation.

Maybe cohesive isn't the right word, I just don't like to see the AI to dispersed with no support at all in a long firefight... They tend to wander off too far away from the rest of the squad making them easy pickings. Using enableAttack false will make them stick together but I miss the AI flanking maneuver...

[gammadust 12]

^^ ninja'ed by you...

I follow EDcase here, while you main point is true, i wouldn't like to see AI turning their backs to the fight. ED's proposition is less prone to break AI behaviour. Two additional possibilites:

- "will issue to attack this new target to the closest friendly", just excluding the "wandering" subordinate from this list could mitigate the issue (assuming this is indeed the way the AI engine works)

- make the "wandering" subordinate hold ground until rest of team catches up

This being said, i haven't noticed too much units wandering away, the exception to this is when leader assigns an actual Attack order (different than merely engage order) which makes some members actually go and flank the enemy. When this occurs they usually pick a very wide path towards the enemy position, too wide in many instances. This should be less arbitrary and more according to terrain, number of enemies, etc.

[fitzee 7]

It's been the same deal for the last 12 years

Hi.

In OpF squad leaders would tell you to return to formation when you got too far away. Did they not do the same with ai units?

For example, there was a fairly large-scale mission(can't remember the name-maybe battlefields) that came with resistance where you and a number of other squads had to capture a position in a field then defend it against the counter-attack. During the defending part, squad leader would usually tell me to engage some enemies on the other side of the forest, but always ended up telling me to return before I even made it halfway there.

[sbua16 19]

In the original OFP they would indeed issue a return to formation order. This was only after the unit had gone a very large distance away from the squad leader. The problem with unit cohesion as I see it, is that the squad leader will often tell individual units to engage an enemy, that individual unit will then break off and effectively do his own thing until the enemy unit is dead. Often this can lead to massive spaces forming between the main squad and random units that belong to that squad.

So you'll have a squad leader heading towards the waypoint, and several elements of his squad spread out all over the battlefield. This isn't how a squad works in my experience as British Squaddie. A squad should, generally, stick together and work in units as small as fire teams, which work together on a cohesive and (as much as possible) structured basis. The way OFP/ArmA has had it's AI handling the squads is just wrong, and not at all authentic. Unit cohesion hasn't been there in 12 years, and I think we'll probably have to wait another 12 years to see the AI doing something that resembles something other then a bunch of individual units running around seemingly at random, tied together with only the loosest of proverbial strings.

[fitzee 7]

Hi.

Now I see what your getting at. Yes, It would be great if the ai would automatically set up fire teams. Right now it seems the only way to do that is scripting it into the mission, and unfortunately they still won't really act like a team :(

Regards.

[ATTACKM0DE 10]

not only do the AI stop working together as the fight progresses, they just stop working at all period. They sometimes get stuck and disobey the most simplest of orders. When this happens, I shoot my friendly AI once in the leg with my sidearm to teach them who's boss!! It usually gets them moving again for a short period before something else equally annoying happens with the AI. lol.

[GShock 10]

I think formations are actually hindering the AI, in fact, as far as I can tell, WW is trying to stop the leaders from giving engagement orders which override their capability to seek cover before trying to shoot back or seek cover first and then attack from cover onto unsuspecting enemy.

The AI just can't take cover no matter his efforts because the leader is constantly giving engagement orders. Perhaps the best would be to have a "clear" situation. When that is up, then you can RESUME formation but during the engagment, priority should be cover, not formation.

Maybe it's a matter of distance from the leader but I don't think so because the distance required before one of your subordinates goes "away" is huge.

This AI has all sorts of problems.

If you play the dynamic warfare scenario (brilliant idea imo) you'll see you task them to drive to somewhere and several times you're forced to pick them up as they crashed into a building.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to say when and if they will ever fix the AI.

I've often wondered if a game exclusively dedicated to multiplayer wouldn't be better at this point because a big deal of manpower could be devoted to other issues in its place.

[EDcase 87]

Ideally there should be two attack orders.

One where the soldier will advance to the enemy contact and one where he will hold position (behind cover) and try to track the enemy contact then engage if he has good line of sight.

Edited November 5, 2013 by EDcase

[instagoat 133]

I use "this enableAttack false" on pretty much every unit I place. Then they will stick together instead of getting sent out piecemeal over miles of hostile terrain. The current version of the AI does do this, and it doesn't work anymore since engagement distances are so large (remember, OFP originally had a viewdistance of only 500 meters, and everything happened inside of that pretty much.). AI get sent out, and can literally cross kilometers of terrain. Alone.

This needs some attention, sooner or later, I think.

[antoineflemming 14]

Hi.

In OpF squad leaders would tell you to return to formation when you got too far away. Did they not do the same with ai units?

For example, there was a fairly large-scale mission(can't remember the name-maybe battlefields) that came with resistance where you and a number of other squads had to capture a position in a field then defend it against the counter-attack. During the defending part, squad leader would usually tell me to engage some enemies on the other side of the forest, but always ended up telling me to return before I even made it halfway there.

Yeah, that just tells them to come back near the leader. That doesn't force them to keep formation.

[fitzee 7]

OFP originally had a viewdistance of only 500 meters

Hi.

Typo? Or was it really that low in 1.0? By the time the game hit the shelves in my area it was already patched a number of times and at that point it definitely had more than 500 meter VD. Unless my brain is crapping out in my old age or something. I remember I had the fastest cpu/gpu combination available at the time P3 700mhz and a gforce 256(lol), and I couldn't even come close to max VD.

Regards.

[xendance 3]

I use "this enableAttack false" on pretty much every unit I place. Then they will stick together instead of getting sent out piecemeal over miles of hostile terrain. The current version of the AI does do this, and it doesn't work anymore since engagement distances are so large (remember, OFP originally had a viewdistance of only 500 meters, and everything happened inside of that pretty much.). AI get sent out, and can literally cross kilometers of terrain. Alone.

This needs some attention, sooner or later, I think.

Yea that command does wonders when you're trying to place units in a defensive position. But I've noticed that it can make taking out armored targets with anti tank weapons quite slow. The AT guys aren't proactive enough.