The problem with full mods is..............

[tactical 0]

The full blown mods that are being made look awesome. I can't wait to download them when they are finished. And that seems to be the problem.....when they are finished. By the way, when will they be finished?? Anyway, the work they are doing (name your mod here) is amazing. The quality of the weapons/units seen in the screenshots is almost unbelievable. Also, their commitment to accuracy is also a plus. The big problem however is time. Time is ticking all the while.

For instance, someone from the Invasion 1944 mod was interviewed and he said that it was 5% completed. That is 5% is fully ready for delivery. 5% ...and I know that it's been out there for at least 6 mos, maybe longer. The Great Assault looks just that......great. I can't wait to get my hands on some East Front WW2 OFP. But will I ever?

On the one hand we can't thank these guys enough for what they do. I wish I could help!!! But on the other hand their work is accomplished in painstaking fashion. Slow and sure like the artists they are. But it takes (obviously) an amazing amount of time to complete one of these. And fans like us, who love their work, can't wait to test their product. Who doesn't check the mod's status (at least weekly)?

But as much as we love their work, as much as they should be commended for their artistry and love of history, as much as we would love to play their creation, it all comes down to this. Can they complete the mod? And can they complete it before the next greatest thing comes out. I certainly hope they can. I wish I could help, but alas I know little of what they do.

[nuddicrous 0]

Well, I dont consider myself a modmaker even though I'm working on addons to OFP. The only difference is that I dont have the pervasiveness, or official-oxygen-developer status of most modmakers, in that I base what I make on what is already available, or the more pervasive make available. Plus, mine are addons, and not full mods. Oh well. Ohhhh Caaanadaaaaa... blah blah blah blah blah blah....

Nice rant though, I agree fully. Plus, mod teams fall apart quite often.

[Demagor 0]

A couple of tidbits to throw into the water...

1. How does the release of new game versions affect their development?  For example... if they've been working with v1.46 for 6 months... and they're 5% complete... and all of a sudden, Resistance (v1.75) comes out!  Now what?!  Back to the drawing board? Tedious backtracking to update/fix/modify/recode/improve something previously done that can now benefit from Resistance's changes?  How do upgrades and/or official expansions (include Red Hammer here, please) affect MOD creation?

2. Another factor... to THEIR benefit is in fact related to time. Let's consider how long it took Codemasters/BIS to make OFP in the first place. It SEEMS to us like the MOD-makers are taking their sweet time, because we already have a finished and fully functional version of OFP to compare it to. Though the MOD-makers aren't exactly "working from scratch" (since the game essentially already exists and they're creating modifications of an existing product), their MOD creations (which are clearly several) in a way ARE from scratch.  It's easy to re-skin the M16, but it's a different story to completely create an MP43!  If the MOD-makers would have "theoretically/somehow" began their MOD at the same time the Codemasters/BIS team began creating OFP, then as of today, the MOD folks would be seriously lagging (since OFP has been out for nearly a year if not so already).  However, that's not the case.

In my opinion, the MOD-makers should be praised. If someone had told Michaelangelo to paint the chapel in 20-mins, it wouldn't have been as incredible as it is.  Granted it's a wait... it's a wait and a half... but... credit and kudos to them for committing THAT much time to the project in the first place.  Yes, many of them will die out and join the ranks of "Great Things That Never Were", but those that do not... I personally assure you... will make you say "WOW. That was worth the wait!".

Please do not take this as a rant, or as a complaint. It's FAR from it. I can't design a straight line, much less an OFP add-on. I'm not even worthy to stand in a puddle of their own piss, much less bicker about the time they're taking.

Work on, great fellows... work until your brows are singed by the candlelight... work on, and work well.

"A round of Red Stripe for the gents!"

[B@ZOOkA 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For instance, someone from the Invasion 1944 mod was interviewed and he said that it was 5% completed.  That is 5% is fully ready for delivery.  5%  ...and I know that it's been out there for at least 6 mos, maybe longer. <span id='postcolor'>

i think you missunderstood him... heres the part of the interview your talking about....

Snipa: What percentage of completion would you say Invasion '44 is at?

Sussmori: In terms of the beta, about 50%. In terms of the final campaign probably 5%.

hes only talking about the campaign... not about the whole mod.. read the full interview HERE

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">1. How does the release of new game versions affect their development?  For example... if they've been working with v1.46 for 6 months... and they're 5% complete... and all of a sudden, Resistance (v1.75) comes out!  Now what?!  Back to the drawing board? Tedious backtracking to update/fix/modify/recode/improve something previously done that can now benefit from Resistance's changes?  How do upgrades and/or official expansions (include Red Hammer here, please) affect MOD creation?<span id='postcolor'>

i dont think the differences between 1.46 and 1.75 are so big... there are differences thats clear but i dont think they are such big that they have to start again from the ground on

[tactical 0]

Well, the "mod" won't be released until the campaign is as I understand 1944. I don't think they are releasing unit packs and missions like WW2 guys have been. It still sounded like they have 5% of whatever they're doing completed.

But, let me make this clear. I too have nothing but praise for these guys. They are masters at what they do. it's just a shame they don't have enough grunts to assist them to get it done in a more reasonable time-frame.

[Garritos 0]

Ive said it before ill say it again, maybe 10% of the mods that are in developement will ever see full completion. Lets see, the longest standing MODs I can think of are I44 and Lost Brothers. I44 has been around for nearly a year(?) and they have endured many power struggles and now say they are 5% complete. LB has been around that long also and all I know that they have are the Merkava. the guy that was doing all of the soldier skins moved on after nearly completing them(noone) so now they must start over. Im really happy that they do release stuff to the public (HK's and other weapons and the new German guys for BW). BW seems to be the closest to completion but the demo showed us they still have a long way to go. So a year after the release of OFP we have that desert storm MOD (dont get me started) and an excellent ongoing campaign CLSA(excellent work).

The sad fact is alot of these great screenies of ingame models well end up on some 12 year old with a god complex's Hard drive until he finds the next great FPS to start a MOD in. eventually finding its way to the recycle bin along with OFP. Another new trend is the guys with OXY trying to join as many MODs as they can w/o devoting thier skills to the completion of one single project. Guess it looks nice to have a list of how many MODS you are in for your ikon board signature.

I request all mod makers and editors to follow the example of ballistic studio, WW2 team, G8 and DKM by releasing completed work for the enjoyment of the community and avid editors like myself whom just wanna create WW3 senarios in the editor =] Or at the least skin a multi-national version of your creations so we can all enjoy the fruits of your hard work.

[B@ZOOkA 0]

ok... all the other mods... please stop work now because we now know that your mods wont be finished

i myself think that what you say is just demotivating for all the modmakers...if a modmaker knew before he starts a new mod that his mod will never be released/finished.... then why should people start to make a mod? ..or why should people who are making a mod continue their work if everybody says that it will never be finished...same thing with releasing all their addons (releasing some addons is a different thing... that has been discussed many times if mods should do or not). if a mod-team release all their addons... its for me something like giving up, like saying : ok....we know that our mod wont be finished so here are all of our addons...

just tell me if i missunderstood you

[quakergamer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Garritos @ Aug. 22 2002,22:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Ive said it before ill say it again, maybe 10% of the mods that are in developement will ever see full completion.  Lets see, the longest standing MODs I can think of are I44 and Lost Brothers.  I44 has been around for nearly a year(?) and they have endured many power struggles and now say they are 5% complete.  LB has been around that long also and all I know that they have are the Merkava.  the guy that was doing all of the soldier skins moved on after nearly completing them(noone) so now they must start over.  Im really happy that they do release stuff to the public (HK's and other weapons and the new German guys for BW).  BW seems to be the closest to completion but the demo showed us they still have a long way to go.  So a year after the release of OFP we have that desert storm MOD (dont get me started) and an excellent ongoing campaign CLSA(excellent work).  

  The sad fact is alot of these great screenies of ingame models well end up on some 12 year old with a god complex's Hard drive until he finds the next great FPS to start a MOD in.  eventually finding its way to the recycle bin along with OFP.  Another new trend is the guys with OXY trying to join as many MODs as they can w/o devoting thier skills to the completion of one single project.  Guess it looks nice to have a list of how many MODS you are in for your ikon board signature.  

  I request all mod makers and editors to follow the example of ballistic studio, WW2 team, G8 and DKM by releasing completed work for the enjoyment of the community and avid editors like myself whom just wanna create WW3 senarios in the editor =]  Or at the least skin a multi-national version of your creations so we can all enjoy the fruits of your hard work.<span id='postcolor'>

Well I see you say that we should release all the addons. This would be great but would the peopels download the mod when its compeltly finsiehd. Maybe those who got high speed could dload it (300 mb) but those with 56k wouldnt.

And I think that the mods that dont want to release the adons before completition of the mod(LB, I44,etc) its because they want more peoples to dload their mod.

The best thing to do is to releasea demo of the mod (like BW mod did) so we can all see how the mod will be. This would be the best thing to do.

[FSPilot 0]

It's my opinion that developers shouldn't talk about their mod before they release it except to those directly involved with the development (beta testers, coders). This way nobody sits and waits years for it to come out, and nobody keeps asking "when will it come out?"

Just my opinion.

[Garritos 0]

Well after re-reading my post maybe I did come of a little synical but sometimes a dose of reality is good. Im am not sayin all mods should release everything they have made so far. </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Or at the least skin a multi-national version of your creations so we can all enjoy the fruits of your hard work.<span id='postcolor'>

for example the DKM patra APC, if they had not released it before completing the mod we may have gotten the buggy first release in the mod instead of the newer, better version.

I am in full support of Demo versions of each mod, this is a great compromise and extremely beneficial to the MOD. BW for example may have released the Lag-o-licious Huey and the overpowered Leo had they not let the public have a taste before the full version. not to mention that I now have the first new tank model(non-BIS) in my add-on folder. As much as i love the M1A1, it can get a little old and really puts a damper on multi-national missions.

Speaking of Demo's, quaker do u know if the old iraqi army PBO is hosted anywhere on the net from the first desert storm(gulf war) Demo? I would like to use it in an upcoming mission but I cant if ppl cant D/L it from somewhere.

[B@ZOOkA 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (FSPilot @ Aug. 23 2002,00:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It's my opinion that developers shouldn't talk about their mod before they release it except to those directly involved with the development (beta testers, coders).  This way nobody sits and waits years for it to come out, and nobody keeps asking "when will it come out?"

Just my opinion.<span id='postcolor'>

but how should they get members if nobody knows/talks about the mod.... i mean i see your point but this cant work...

[jakerod 254]

What really sucks is that 1.46 thing....Each time they come out with something new you have to change it....Then eventually they will have a new better game....Independence Lost....sure some stuff may work for it but probably not very much from what ive seen. Dont ask why im making a new world if a new game will come out by the time im half way done.....i dont know

[Eviscerator 0]

most of the models being made now will probably work in il if there is an oxygen like program, as the models all have the same things il will need, (a 3rd person lod, distance lods, 1st person lods, and geometry lods) most likely only the memory lod will need changing...

[quakergamer 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Garritos @ Aug. 23 2002,00:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well after re-reading my post maybe I did come of a little synical but sometimes a dose of reality is good.  Im am not sayin all mods should release everything they have made so far.   </span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Or at the least skin a multi-national version of your creations so we can all enjoy the fruits of your hard work.<span id='postcolor'>

for example the DKM patra APC, if they had not released it before completing the mod we may have gotten the buggy first release in the mod instead of the newer, better version.  

I am in full support of Demo versions of each mod, this is a great compromise and extremely beneficial to the MOD.  BW for example may have released the Lag-o-licious Huey and the overpowered Leo had they not let the public have a taste before the full version.  not to mention that I now have the first new tank model(non-BIS) in my add-on folder.  As much as i love the M1A1, it can get a little old and really puts a damper on multi-national missions.  

Speaking of Demo's, quaker do u know if the old iraqi army PBO is hosted anywhere on the net from the first desert storm(gulf war) Demo?  I would like to use it in an upcoming mission but I cant if ppl cant D/L it from somewhere.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes but wouldnt it be better if DKM mod would had released all their addon in one pack(demo) right now with 2-3 missions for single player

[B@ZOOkA 0]

yep... thats my opinion too...

1.then the addons would have made real sence (i dont wanna say the addons are useless when they are released like dkm did but they would be more useful with one or two demo missions)

2.the demo would have attracted all the attention in the community or even in the whole "gamer world"(i say that because bw-mod is gonna get in tv tomorrow in a big ganesshow here in germany...theyll talk about the demo and the whole mod-project

[Garritos 0]

Maybe my view is selfish but I really dont want the MOD's missions. I just want the add-ons. It seems the mods focus more on the add-on side of the game and not the mission editing side. I have had the BW demo for atleast a week and today was the first time I accually played one of the missions. Im so grateful that I didnt have to wait for the DKM demo to get the Patra. Now i can get lost creating lifelike finnish bases and creating huge scripted battles with all of the good stuff availible. Im also grateful to G8 b/c I also have a full complement of Italian weapons and i didnt have to wait forever. Everyone has thier own "interpretation" of OFP and ppl use it in different ways, that is what makes this game so great. I can whatch huge battles(yes i have a powerfull system) beneath me from a civie jetranger or jump online for some coop on vetserver or play some of the excellent missions coming from the guys that hang out at OFPEC or create my own missions.

BTW congrats to the BW guys, thats amazing that they are accually on TV, maybe someone will award them thier own game engine like some at LB are seeking. Isnt that the ultimate goal of any mod, to make thier hobby a job =]

[tactical 0]

"A dose of reality...." I guess that's why I started this post. If I could learn how to do some of this stuff I would gladly assist a mod maker and focus to get it done. Someone here suggested that the WW2 guys have gone the right way. Given the reality that completed mods take a long time, the nature of computer games and technology (i.e. rate of improvement increasing geometrically), it probably would be best to release what they've completed. Perhaps others can then tweak what they've done and the thing gets some use.

If 1944 or the Great Assault (man I hope they get theirs done) do not see full completion, what would have been accomplished for the OFP fans? WW2 guys (my name for them) have already given us something to build on. We have their units and armor pack and can begin creating ww2 missions.

This would never happen, but maybe more of us out there can assist in some way to see these things come to fruition.

[Major Fubar 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tactical @ Aug. 22 2002,18:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For instance, someone from the Invasion 1944 mod was interviewed and he said that it was 5% completed.  That is 5% is fully ready for delivery.  5%  ...and I know that it's been out there for at least 6 mos, maybe longer.<span id='postcolor'>

By that calculation, it should be ready in about another 19.5 years...

Full mods are great, but I think they need to give us some teasers (new units, weapons, missions etc.) to keep us interested.

As great as OFP is, people will eventually start to lose interest in it. If the full modders take too long to get their mods out, no one will be interested when they are ready (OFP2 or whatever the next big game is will be out by then).

[miles teg 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Major Fubar @ Aug. 23 2002,15:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tactical @ Aug. 22 2002,18:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For instance, someone from the Invasion 1944 mod was interviewed and he said that it was 5% completed.  That is 5% is fully ready for delivery.  5%  ...and I know that it's been out there for at least 6 mos, maybe longer.<span id='postcolor'>

By that calculation, it should be ready in about another 19.5 years...

Full mods are great, but I think they need to give us some teasers (new units, weapons, missions etc.) to keep us interested.

As great as OFP is, people will eventually start to lose interest in it. If the full modders take too long to get their mods out, no one will be interested when they are ready (OFP2 or whatever the next big game  is will be out by then).<span id='postcolor'>

I agree....like whatever happened to Operation Vietnam.  They seemed to have been one of the the most ambitious MODs, however the SEB Vietnam MOD has gained popularity (cuz they release addons) while the Operation Vietnam MOD has dwindled into obscurity.  It's a shame cuz they had some nice models that looked like they had great potential.  I like also how they were looking into making maps that would simulate actual areas of Vietnam.

The fact is, that so far not many MODs have been completed.  The "Planet of War" MOD is the only one that comes to mind and the BW MOD is out in a demo form and looks like it will be completed soon.   At least they were smart enough to release a fairly good demo MOD.  

But other then those, it looks like most of the other MODs are never-ending projects that just putter along.  Like others have said, by the time they are done, a better version of OFP will be out and the MOD may or may not be compatible.

I think that the majority of these mods will never be completed in that the creators themselves will likely lose interest and get bored with them.  I've seen many addon makers do this with their addons.  They start off with great ideas and make a ton of progress on the models, even getting them working ingame, but then as time goes by they move on to other addons and never complete the cool addon they were working on originally.   The cargo planes that were supposed to have been out after Resistance are an example of this phenomena.  

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[The_Captain 0]

Two problem with a many mods out there are inexperience and scope. Too often folks embark on a mod with a gigantic scope and too much work to be done, and they have never headed a mod before *and completed it*. I've been modding for a while, and I know the importance of starting small, but this has only come from trying to create some grand scale mod and not succeeding. The most important leson I learned also happens to be the Golden Rule of the Internet: If you want something done, you have to do it yourself. It's that simple. The best approach for those looking to get into modding is to create something small, finish it, and move on to something larger, and it's a huge bonus if the first project is an undertaking by a single person. If one person gets something done from star tto completion, they're learning skills and what has to be done to meet certain goals, and they turn into a knowledgeable jack of all trades of sorts. they can't do everything exceptionally well, but they know how. Once you get to that level, and you ahve something under yoru belt, you're knowlegeable enough to start recruiting people, because now you know what has to be done and you can give them specific instructions, ratehr than being vague... God, I sound like I'm pretending to be some old fart.

In any case, I've been modding for a while now, and I've seen many successful mods, and countless more 'learning experiences'. Even if the project dies, I don't consider them failures unless the creator gets discouraged and quits modding, or doesn't learn the correct lessons from their past experiences. The most well known and successful in the OFp community are the friendly ones that want to know how to get something done, they sit down and learn how, and get it done. I don't have all the names off the top of my head, but huge thanks to all of you.

I'm not trying to act all high and mighty and lecture, but all I'm trying to say in this post is if you want to be a modder, get some small feasible plan, complete it (harder than you think), and move on.

My two cents.