Flares = Useless?

[TripleZer0 10]

Well i cant say i didnt expect the usual group of veteran "pros" showing up and saying theres absolutely nothing wrong with the flares, youre a bad pilot if you get even targeted and the usual blahblahblah.

THEY DO ALMOST NOTHING AT THE MOMENT !

place 10 AA soldiers in the arma 2 editor and fly over them with an attack helicopter, watch how you will be able to evade every missile as long as you spam flares, put your rear towards the enemy and are high enough in the air.

Now try the same thing in Arma 3 and then tell me theres absolutely nothing wrong with flares.

No this is Arma, not any other computer game. Why should the devs intentionally mis-simulate something for a mod to fix?

You realize that Bohemia's goal was never to make a 100% realistic military simulation, they want to make a semi-realistic tactical military shooter/simulation that is still fun to play, just look at the way injuries are handled in this game.

Im pretty sure i saw a statement of a developer once saying that, unless im horribly wrong and imagined that.

Im all for realism anyway but flares doing nothing IS NOT REALISTIC.

Edited September 4, 2013 by TripleZer0

[comp_uter15776 1]

Well i cant say i didnt expect the usual group of veteran "pros" showing up and saying theres absolutely nothing wrong with the flares, youre a bad pilot if you get even targeted and the usual blahblahblah.

THEY DO ALMOST NOTHING AT THE MOMENT !

place 10 AA soldiers in the arma 2 editor and fly over them with an attack helicopter, watch how you will be able to evade every missile as long as you spam flares, put your rear towards the enemy and are high enough in the air.

Now try the same thing in Arma 3 and then tell me theres absolutely nothing wrong with flares.

You realize that Bohemia's goal was never to make a 100% realistic military simulation, they want to make a semi-realistic tactical military shooter/simulation that is still fun to play, just look at the way injuries are handled in this game.

Im pretty sure i saw a statement of a developer once saying that, unless im horribly wrong and imagined that.

Im all for realism anyway but flares doing nothing IS NOT REALISTIC.

Neither is 10 AA spamming their missiles away... it's a fine balance and I'd not be surprised to get shot down going over 10 independent missile launches... Even if it is a game, BIS still strive for some sort of accuracy.

[Tonci87 163]

Well the OP has a valid point, there shouldn´t just be a random chance of evading the missile. It should matter if the missile is coming from the front or from the rear etc.

But really, if you get shot at by 2 or more AA gunner then you simply have done something terribly wrong :p

[Velvet_Llama 10]

What type of SAM is being launched. Most modern MANPADS have very good flare rejection. Flying the A-10 in DCS if the enemy launches a SA-18 unless you are spamming flares on your run it will usually hit. Even with a full load of 240 flares you have only enough for a few runs before you're empty. You have to spamexpecting your attack run if you want to live. Just don't expect to be able to do multiple runs.

I learned very quickly playing the A-10 in DCS that my bad ass tank stomper was helpless against AA. Even after logging hundreds of hours in the virtual cockpit I still pretty much assume I'm about to get hit if I'm foolish enough to allow an AA unit to get a good lock and fire. Hell I usually set up a countermeasure program to pop small amounts of chaff and flares on attack runs if there is so much as the possibility of AA operating in the area. One of my proudest early moments in the game was sucessfully landing after a helicopter took out an engine, stabilizer, and half of a wing. Had to jettison all my stores and I lost the landing gear in the bargain, but I survived :)

More to the point, AA and countermeasures in Arma are not particularly realistic (of course I've never flown a plane, much less a combat aircraft, in real life so I could be talking out of my rear), and it would be nice if they were more realistic- but I also recognize that development time and cpu cycles are both finite resources and flight is not part of the "core" Arma experience. So if those resources are devoted to other things that most people will spend more time experiencing, I understand. I'm not trying to be one of those "BI can do no wrong" fanboys- I'm just saying in this case it's understandable.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Velvet_Llama

[pharoah 65]

So what is the point of the flares then? AA missles aren't 100% accurate, and there's a reason the main countermeasure for heatseeking AA missles is the flare. If the use of flares was a waste of time (as has been mentioned above), then somebody better go tell the USAF/RAAF/RAF/etc etc to stop loading flares on their a/c because its not going to work against AA missles. Oh the horror.

[dmarkwick 261]

Are these AA missiles that are not being spoofed IR missiles? Or are they optically guided? Optically guided missiles are far less subject to being spoofed by either chaff or flares.

[frederf 0]

I think it's a little insane to go down the road of "modern (or near future) IR missiles don't care about flares" as accurate as the statement is. The game software's intention is clearly for some meaningful interaction between air units, flares, and IR threats.

I found in the showcase where one attacks a helicopter with a Titan AA that the flares were genuinely a problem and only careful shots would strike home. In my experience the flares are effective at least for player Titan AA vs. AI helo.

[pharoah 65]

The main thing is, have we seen evidence of defensive flares have ANY impact on AI launched AA missles? All my experience to date (and it happened again last night...yes we got a bit close but the pilot deployed LOTS of flares and that single missle still took us out) is that it doesn't have any impact however, that could just be my experience. If others are experiencing the same then there's an issue. If others aren't having an issue then its NOT necessarily a bug or something.

[lev 21]

Just performed a test tonight.

Placed 4 AA soldiers in the city northwest of the middle airfield of Altis. Started with a ghosthawk on the airfield and made several fly overs the city. I was always able to dodge at least 1 AA rocket with the aid of flares. I was once able to dodge 3 rockets, 2 of which were assisted with flares and 1 of which I ran out of flares but performed a diving maneuver to break lock. What worked even better though was when I just flew NOE to the city, which allowed me to fly right over the city and land on the edge of town without any lock to "simulate" a insertion/extraction scenario.

So honestly, I can not see the AA issue you are describing. Yes the AA rockets seem more effective than in A2 but in A2, AA was too easy to dodge using flares. My suggestions are listed below:

1. Do not fly within 2km of AA if you don't know what you are doing.

2. If you have to fly near AA, fly NOE whenever possible (I recommend ~13-15m because lower than that and you might catch an accidental powerline).

3. Always approach from cover and land in cover. Unless the AA is placed on top of a hill overwatching the entire AO or in the middle of a flat plain, you should be able to get reasonably close to insert or extract troops. Also dropping off troops 1km out of a hot AO is more appropriate than dropping them off 100m from the AO.

4. Keep speed above 150kph whenever possible.

5. If you do get locked on, dump flares immediately, dive downwards and increase speed as much as possible (which happens anyway if you try to dive). Then do not hang around that area because a second rocket will come and you might be so lucky.

[pharoah 65]

Just performed a test tonight.

Placed 4 AA soldiers in the city northwest of the middle airfield of Altis. Started with a ghosthawk on the airfield and made several fly overs the city. I was always able to dodge at least 1 AA rocket with the aid of flares. I was once able to dodge 3 rockets, 2 of which were assisted with flares and 1 of which I ran out of flares but performed a diving maneuver to break lock. What worked even better though was when I just flew NOE to the city, which allowed me to fly right over the city and land on the edge of town without any lock to "simulate" a insertion/extraction scenario.

So honestly, I can not see the AA issue you are describing. Yes the AA rockets seem more effective than in A2 but in A2, AA was too easy to dodge using flares. My suggestions are listed below:

1. Do not fly within 2km of AA if you don't know what you are doing.

2. If you have to fly near AA, fly NOE whenever possible (I recommend ~13-15m because lower than that and you might catch an accidental powerline).

3. Always approach from cover and land in cover. Unless the AA is placed on top of a hill overwatching the entire AO or in the middle of a flat plain, you should be able to get reasonably close to insert or extract troops. Also dropping off troops 1km out of a hot AO is more appropriate than dropping them off 100m from the AO.

4. Keep speed above 150kph whenever possible.

5. If you do get locked on, dump flares immediately, dive downwards and increase speed as much as possible (which happens anyway if you try to dive). Then do not hang around that area because a second rocket will come and you might be so lucky.

This. Thank you sir for doing a proper test. I shall go to my corner and review my own flying procedures rather than blame 'the system' lol. :)

[Tonci87 163]

This. Thank you sir for doing a proper test. I shall go to my corner and review my own flying procedures rather than blame 'the system' lol. :)

I shall do the same, anyone knows of a good testing areas on Altis? Wich Heli should we use to test?

[SPC.Spets 21]

I dont know if useless, but, THEY LOOK SO COOOOL!

:p

[GottyPlays 10]

Flares are pretty much broken, they have zero effect from what I've seen, I can't believe some people here are trying to defend this. Or maybe it's because it's the future and the IR missiles now can see what's a flare and what's an aircraft.

yeah, in 2035 there will be TAB LOCK guided missiles...

i always find people of this forum amazing. they want to remove tab lock because it is not realistic, but they want useless flares in helos, because it's realistic.

[TripleZer0 10]

yeah, in 2035 there will be TAB LOCK guided missiles...

i always find people of this forum amazing. they want to remove tab lock because it is not realistic, but they want useless flares in helos, because it's realistic.

Thats about my impression of this conversation, too.

So honestly, I can not see the AA issue you are describing. Yes the AA rockets seem more effective than in A2 but in A2, AA was too easy to dodge using flares. My suggestions are listed below:

1. Do not fly within 2km of AA if you don't know what you are doing.

2. If you have to fly near AA, fly NOE whenever possible (I recommend ~13-15m because lower than that and you might catch an accidental powerline).

3. Always approach from cover and land in cover. Unless the AA is placed on top of a hill overwatching the entire AO or in the middle of a flat plain, you should be able to get reasonably close to insert or extract troops. Also dropping off troops 1km out of a hot AO is more appropriate than dropping them off 100m from the AO.

4. Keep speed above 150kph whenever possible.

5. If you do get locked on, dump flares immediately, dive downwards and increase speed as much as possible (which happens anyway if you try to dive). Then do not hang around that area because a second rocket will come and you might be so lucky.

All good Tips, so what do i do when im flying an attack helicopter? Do i fly at 15 meter altitude because anything else will get me killed thanks to the useless flares ? Yep thats gonna be fun.

Also, try playing tactical warfare once, where an AA soldier could be everywhere at any time. (Awaiting the hate for any map that is not a thoroughly scripted mission)

Edited September 5, 2013 by TripleZer0

[comp_uter15776 1]

Thats about my impression of this conversation, too.

All good Tips, so what do i do when im flying an attack helicopter? Do i fly at 15 meter altitude because anything else will get me killed thanks to the useless flares ? Yep thats gonna be fun.

Also, try playing tactical warfare once, where an AA soldier could be everywhere at any time. (Awaiting the hate for any map that is not a thoroughly scripted mission)

Did you not read his first point? You can target from around 2km away if you are even remotely decent at piloting, so it's not that hard. I suggest you watch dsylexci's vid on helo piloting (the new one for A3) that covers how to make good attack runs, should you not have DAGRs at your disposal.

[TripleZer0 10]

Did you not read his first point? You can target from around 2km away if you are even remotely decent at piloting, so it's not that hard. I suggest you watch dsylexci's vid on helo piloting (the new one for A3) that covers how to make good attack runs, should you not have DAGRs at your disposal.

Its too bad when you dont know where the AA is, huh ?

Also i know what im doing and the point still stands, AA Missiles are too powerful due to the uselessness of flares. There is no arguing about that point. Flares were completely fine a few weeks ago, theyre simply bugged right now.

[comp_uter15776 1]

Its too bad when you dont know where the AA is, huh ?

Also i know what im doing and the point still stands, AA Missiles are too powerful due to the uselessness of flares. There is no arguing about that point. Flares were completely fine a few weeks ago, theyre simply bugged right now.

Recently made a Greyhawk run with the ATGM's at about 200-300 AGL, and evaded about 7 AA missiles (over two runs) without being downed. Didn't use all my flares either. (Think maybe 2 more keypresses)

I would say they are entirely fine right now.

Also, part of the idea is that you shouldn't constantly know where AA is and be able to defeat it as and when... having the constant worry of being targeted and brought down by AA should be present for pilots.

[TripleZer0 10]

well if an elite pilot like you, who has probably logged 1000s of hours as a pilot, has absolutely no trouble, there cant be anything wrong with the flares.

[lev 21]

Its too bad when you dont know where the AA is, huh ?

Also i know what im doing and the point still stands, AA Missiles are too powerful due to the uselessness of flares. There is no arguing about that point. Flares were completely fine a few weeks ago, theyre simply bugged right now.

Uh, you know this is why roles like JTAC exist right? You are supposed to be executing attacks in coordination with ground forces who will spot and identify enemy targets as well as AA for you. CAS doesn't just stay on site in a battle area unless it is highly certain that enemy forces have no significant AA threat. CAS is supposed to provide quick and precise strikes usually with coordination from the ground or other intel source. Once you are given a strike location and target, you take the the most concealed or distant position you need to execute the strike. If possible always execute strike orders from range and wipe out the enemy before they have a chance to engage you. If the enemy happens to be in a well covered location and requires you to get closer, there are a variety of tactics such as peaking over the top of hills to take your shot before descending back into cover, or making a fast attack run that takes you from a covered position into another covered position.

I also hope you know also tactical domi is a bad representation of what actual missions might be like. You don't just have one circular AO and random forces all over. Typically there are blue/red zones drawn up that encompass rather large areas and once you exit a blue zone you are considered in danger because there may be unknown threats out there. Red is only the known areas of enemy activity. In the case of domi, once you leave your base (and sometimes even before that) you should consider yourself in danger and apply all tactics possible to minimize it (fly NOE, head to your obj then execute and rtb, don't be on standby unless ordered to, etc).

Also sometimes, the air option is simply not available. If the enemy has a high amount of AA capability, then no commander would send in air forces and expect them to execute their objectives properly. Lots of Arma players have this mentality that if an asset is available then they should be able to use it. Most missions are not designed to showcase those assets and you should use proper judgment and intel when deciding to use an asset. Domi/warfare/wasteland doesn't usually ask for any of this and thats why players have this idea that the "game is unbalanced" because suddenly conditions changed and their simple run and gun tactics are failing them now.

[maturin 12]

Flares probably aren't going to be useful against 2035's weapons.

The Russian Igla-S already terrifies the West because of its countermeasure rejection abilities. This is an inevitable result of better computers in smaller packages. On the other hand, there's not much you can do to improve on little packages of combustible material carries on the fuselage.

We'll probably see ADS for aircraft soon. I can't image why it hasn't been tried already, given the extremely high cost and relatively rare occurrence of SAMs. You always know when a radar-guided missile is coming, and its course is predictable.

[comp_uter15776 1]

Flares probably aren't going to be useful against 2035's weapons.

The Russian Igla-S already terrifies the West because of its countermeasure rejection abilities. This is an inevitable result of better computers in smaller packages. On the other hand, there's not much you can do to improve on little packages of combustible material carries on the fuselage.

We'll probably see ADS for aircraft soon. I can't image why it hasn't been tried already, given the extremely high cost and relatively rare occurrence of SAMs. You always know when a radar-guided missile is coming, and its course is predictable.

Indeed. You should look at HELLADS as an example, not to derail the thread.

[progamer 14]

Multiple real life factors detriment the effectiveness of flares and chaffs. We do not need some random or some "balanced in your opinion" calculation to decide weather the flares work or not. We need calculations based on the factories that effect flares like location, distance, position of flares, missile type and amount of flares deployed. There are plenty of other games that do arcadic balance that you can play. Let's try to keep that out of this one. And rather than bandaging the problem why don't we fix the actual system with all the factors that determine the effectiveness of flares and chaffs as a large majority of people prefer realism over balancing any day.

Again, rather than tweaking this Radom calculation why not add additional realistic factors into it.

[maturin 12]

Again, rather than tweaking this Radom calculation why not add additional realistic factors into it.

The realistic factors are mostly out of the scope of the game. Even DCS doesn't do much with in-depth countermeasure rejection.

Anyways, I don't know what people are talking about. Flares work great for the L-139. You run out rather fast, but it is a small aircraft.

As for choppers, you can rely on flares even less, as you can't move fast enough to change your course and replace your old position with flares.

[TripleZer0 10]

Uh, you know this is why roles like JTAC exist right? You are supposed to be executing attacks in coordination with ground forces who will spot and identify enemy targets as well as AA for you. CAS doesn't just stay on site in a battle area unless it is highly certain that enemy forces have no significant AA threat.

Uh, you know not everyone is in an arma clan and theres something called public matches where you will not be able to coordinate anything beyond "everyone go there"

I know that about 95% of this forum have a clan to play with and do not understand why arma's mechanics must work for chaotic public matches as well.

Edited September 6, 2013 by TripleZer0

[progamer 14]

Uh, you know not everyone is in an arma clan and theres something called public matches where you will not be able to coordinate anything beyond "everyone go there"

I've had some pretty serious public matchs, maybe wasteland isn't the best for helicopters?