Regarding nerfing sniper and fixing the perhaps broken accuracy system.

[Yashamalu 10]

I've been playing Wasteland for a while and I noticed that sniper rifle is always more preferable than any other rifles in game. Take MK18 for example, in real life, its recoil is so strong that it is impossible to fire automatically yet maintaining decent accuracy. However in game, firing semi-automatically rapidly could give you far better accuracy than firing automatically, thus MK18 is all-powerful compared to any other non-sniper rifles. MK18 is more powerful and accurate than MXM, yet enjoying the same fire rate, rendering MXM totally outclassed. As for the anti-material rifle, it is so ridiculous that you can easily aim while standing or moving yet maintaining stable aim. In real life, the recoil can completely drag your aim sky high, and the swag would be unmanageable.

Therefore, it is advisable to have MK18's automatic fire mode cancelled and its semi-automatic fire frequency reduced, and have the swag and recoil of anti-material rifle increased. Also, wearing guillie suit can make you invisible yet providing no downsides, so I would recommend that the movement speed of wearer reduced, and that he is easily fatigued.

[progamer 14]

If its a wasteland balance issue, then BIS will do nothing about it. You have to suggest this to whoever makes the wasteland version you are referring to as the mission maker decides the mission balance. The gillie suit is designed to hide the wearer, talk to the mission designer if you want him to added more fatigue to it. Also if you want more sniper realism there are various feedback tracker tickets and other forums posts discussing the issue. The MK18 is again not being changed by BIS to "balance" it in your opinion, you have to talk with the mission maker about it for any balancing.

---------- Post added at 05:09 ---------- Previous post was at 05:07 ----------

Post this on the appropriate wasteland missions forum post here so the mission maker can see your suggestions:

If its Sa-Matra wasteland: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?154610-MP-Team-Sa-Matra-s-Wasteland

If its GoT wasteland: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?156117-MP-COOP-DM-GoT-Wasteland-v2-(Enhanced-edition)

If its 404 wasteland: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?147851-Wasteland-for-ArmA-3-by-404Games-MP

Edited August 23, 2013 by ProGamer

[Triikor 10]

Looks like "nerf/buff" cancer from BF3 comes to Arma 3 closer - under cover of "balance".

Muzzle brake and flash supressors can be developed good enough to almost neglate the barrel jumping up/down/left/right even now, and Arma 3 takes place in future.

What will be your next suggestions? 12,7 is too powerful - its oneshot in leg, nerf it? Remove thermal optics - its unbaaaaaaalanced?

This is war. The technology matters to win. The timeline allows to get even active camouflage and exoskeletons in Arma 3.

And IMO Wasteland mod is all about to get APC/Attack heli/long range sniper rifle first to roflstomp enemies.

[Yashamalu 10]

Looks like "nerf/buff" cancer from BF3 comes to Arma 3 closer - under cover of "balance".

Muzzle brake and flash supressors can be developed good enough to almost neglate the barrel jumping up/down/left/right even now, and Arma 3 takes place in future.

What will be your next suggestions? 12,7 is too powerful - its oneshot in leg, nerf it? Remove thermal optics - its unbaaaaaaalanced?

This is war. The technology matters to win. The timeline allows to get even active camouflage and exoskeletons in Arma 3.

And IMO Wasteland mod is all about to get APC/Attack heli/long range sniper rifle first to roflstomp enemies.

Lol than by all means it would turns out to be a camping sniping game after all since kill streak is what most players want. There's a good reason why soldiers in real life have different roles and equipped with different weapons, yet the game which claimed to achieve realism fail to reflect that. Not to mention that in real life a hit of 5.56 to your chest would knock you to the ground, probably breaking your bones and cause internal bleeding, while in this game you can take three 6.65 bullets from 500m and walk away.

---------- Post added at 10:10 ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 ----------

Wasteland is only a mission file, not a mod, therefore it is doubtful if it can change the stats of in-game items.

[Triikor 10]

Im pretty sure that in real life survival in the Wasteland surroundings gets to sniperfest too. A lot of open places, small towns, natural born sniping abilities for everyone, lack of teamwork in most cases makes camping and sniping the best solution to that conditions. So, you are completly wrong with

the game which claimed to achieve realism fail to reflect that

. "Lone wolf" players instinctivly prefers the best solution - to dominate others in effective range. I dont see M18 autofire as a problem at all, btw i widely use Zafir for the same goals, exusively for the "oneshot" nature of 7.62 (unsilenced!) and bigger calibres. I admit that MX series have maybe too big recoil sway.

If you want "realism" for 5.56 and 6.5, you better ask for improving wound simulation, not nerfing other weapons.

[Mr. Charles 22]

Lol than by all means it would turns out to be a camping sniping game after all since kill streak is what most players want. There's a good reason why soldiers in real life have different roles and equipped with different weapons, yet the game which claimed to achieve realism fail to reflect that. Not to mention that in real life a hit of 5.56 to your chest would knock you to the ground, probably breaking your bones and cause internal bleeding, while in this game you can take three 6.65 bullets from 500m and walk away.

The soldiers wear body armour and 500 meters is way out of the optimal range of the round.

[maturin 12]

The gillie suit is designed to hide the wearer, talk to the mission designer if you want him to added more fatigue to it.

Don't BS the OP. You can't edit the fatigue value of a piece of gear without making a complex mini mod. 99% of mission designers would have no idea how.

Gillie drawbacks are something BI should implement.

As for Wasteland, well duh, it's not a realistic mission. Every video I see has a BMP-3 and gunships in it, as if in the future there will be five advanced armored vehicles for each rogue soldier.

[byku 13]

Not to mention that in real life a hit of 5.56 to your chest would knock you to the ground, probably breaking your bones and cause internal bleeding

... dude watch:

and please stop writing without checking if you're right, because my eyes bleed :P

Edit.: Yes Maturin, but additionaly he said "... while in this game you can take three 6.65 bullets from 500m and walk away." which i didn't unfortunately quote.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Byku

[maturin 12]

... dude watch:

and please stop writing without checking if you're right, because my eyes bleed :P

Listen to the narration of your own video.

People fall down when they get shot. It's unexpected, it hurts, and they're terrified in combat. With adrenaline pumping, they can't tell if they have suffered a fatal wound or not.

That guy was shot under optimum conditions. He was expecting it, and the round hits the toughest part of the armor.

So you're both wrong and right. Good body armor can allow someone to shrug off a rifle round while it's nothing, but you're just as likely to suffer a hit somewhere with bad or partial coverage, fall down from shock, suffer broken bones and internal bleeding, just like he says.

[KEVINMGXP 20]

Listen to the narration of your own video.

People fall down when they get shot. It's unexpected, it hurts, and they're terrified in combat. With adrenaline pumping, they can't tell if they have suffered a fatal wound or not.

That guy was shot under optimum conditions. He was expecting it, and the round hits the toughest part of the armor.

So you're both wrong and right. Good body armor can allow someone to shrug off a rifle round while it's nothing, but you're just as likely to suffer a hit somewhere with bad or partial coverage, fall down from shock, suffer broken bones and internal bleeding, just like he says.

The video is about "stopping power" and "knock-down ability" with large calibers and it is a myth and that is where Byku is referring too (I THINK :p) in reply on Yashamalu. If so Byku is actually right, There is no such thing like I am going to shoot a person with a M107 and that person will fly away for like several meters, I don't think the poster you are replying to is claiming that it does not hurt nor that it wont hurt when you receive a shot under certain conditions, he claims you will not get knocked down like in the movies.

Not to mention that in real life a hit of 5.56 to your chest would knock you to the ground,

No it wont, it will however drop you to the ground like a sack of potatoes :rolleyes: this is when you don't wear boddy armor, if the impact is stopped under certain conditions you will be most likely able to walk away alive, depends where you have been hit ...

anyway

As for internal bleeding whenever you are in certain conditions and the impact is even on boddy armor you may receive internal bleeding's ....

If a bullet is stopped by the body armor, the impact of the bullet isn't absorbed by the armor. It spread over a larger area of the body...

as has been posted, It can still do quite a bit of damage. imagine being hit, anywhere... with lets say a hammer or baseball bat. It's probably not going to penetrate the skin, but anything inside the skin like bones and organs is going to get the impact.

best of regards ..

Edited August 23, 2013 by LiquitHQ
gramma

[EliteSniper 10]

I've been playing Wasteland for a while and I noticed that sniper rifle is always more preferable than any other rifles in game. Take MK18 for example, in real life, its recoil is so strong that it is impossible to fire automatically yet maintaining decent accuracy. However in game, firing semi-automatically rapidly could give you far better accuracy than firing automatically, thus MK18 is all-powerful compared to any other non-sniper rifles. MK18 is more powerful and accurate than MXM, yet enjoying the same fire rate, rendering MXM totally outclassed. As for the anti-material rifle, it is so ridiculous that you can easily aim while standing or moving yet maintaining stable aim. In real life, the recoil can completely drag your aim sky high, and the swag would be unmanageable.

Therefore, it is advisable to have MK18's automatic fire mode cancelled and its semi-automatic fire frequency reduced, and have the swag and recoil of anti-material rifle increased. Also, wearing guillie suit can make you invisible yet providing no downsides, so I would recommend that the movement speed of wearer reduced, and that he is easily fatigued.

Has it ever crossed your mind this isn't real life?

Anyways, I'd take the Lynx over an MK-18 any day because the MK-18 isn't always a 1 hit kill where the lynx will blow your leg right off.

Another thing, try standing/crouching with a sniper rifle in this game while trying to be accurate at 700+meters, it's pretty damn difficult due to the sway.

Another thing, the MK-18 doesn't exist unless you're talking about the carbine MK-18 which is used by the U.S Navy. MK-18 in real life has very little recoil.

Now if you're talking about the MK-14ebr having high recoil, well you're wrong again. Delta force uses it for it's standered marksman/Sniper rifle. You can double tap it and hit the same place if your average. As for fully automatic, well no weapon is accurate at fully automatic.

I do agree however that the MXM needs a buff so it can 1-2 hit. Pretty sad it takes 3 hits with this rifle when shooting someones head.

[Yashamalu 10]

... dude watch:

and please stop writing without checking if you're right, because my eyes bleed :P

Edit.: Yes Maturin, but additionaly he said "... while in this game you can take three 6.65 bullets from 500m and walk away." which i didn't unfortunately quote.

Lol watch carefully, both rifle shots hit the body armor from an angle of about 30-45 degree, so basically it ricocheted and bounced away from the armor. However if the bullet hit the armor from the front at 90 degree, it would pierce into the armor, assuming it would not penetrate, and impose its power on the wearer and knock the guy back or over.

Not to mention that they fail to tell you what ammo type they were using. Would it be a high-power AP bullet, the result could be catastrophic.

---------- Post added at 19:54 ---------- Previous post was at 19:47 ----------

Now if you're talking about the MK-14ebr having high recoil, well you're wrong again. Delta force uses it for it's standered marksman/Sniper rifle. You can double tap it and hit the same place if your average. As for fully automatic, well no weapon is accurate at fully automatic.

The recoil of a weapon is determined by the caliber and ammo type, a better gun design only help to control the recoil, not diminish it, so MK18 or MK14 should have much higher recoil, I don't see how you could deny that. As for their service on Delta, it does not prove their automatic firing accuracy at all, only that they are reliable weapons.

---------- Post added at 19:59 ---------- Previous post was at 19:54 ----------

The video is about "stopping power" and "knock-down ability" with large calibers and it is a myth and that is where Byku is referring too (I THINK :p) in reply on Yashamalu. If so Byku is actually right, There is no such thing like I am going to shoot a person with a M107 and that person will fly away for like several meters, I don't think the poster you are replying to is claiming that it does not hurt nor that it wont hurt when you receive a shot under certain conditions, he claims you will not get knocked down like in the movies.

No it wont, it will however drop you to the ground like a sack of potatoes :rolleyes: this is when you don't wear boddy armor, if the impact is stopped under certain conditions you will be most likely able to walk away alive, depends where you have been hit ...

anyway

As for internal bleeding whenever you are in certain conditions and the impact is even on boddy armor you may receive internal bleeding's ....

If a bullet is stopped by the body armor, the impact of the bullet isn't absorbed by the armor. It spread over a larger area of the body...

as has been posted, It can still do quite a bit of damage. imagine being hit, anywhere... with lets say a hammer or baseball bat. It's probably not going to penetrate the skin, but anything inside the skin like bones and organs is going to get the impact.

best of regards ..

Just for the "impact absorbed" part, it is worth mentioning that it depends on the type of body armor.

[KEVINMGXP 20]

Just for the "impact absorbed?" part, it is worth mentioning that it depends on the type of body armor.

wana take a bet? Take a sponge and try to absorb a metal casing you will have a hard time to try it ;-)

These body armors, are made out of artificial materials like Kevlar which was discovered by DuPont chemicals, which are made very specifically to try and halt the bullets from penetrating, The force of the bullet is dispersed over the entirety of the material and away from the wearer, so it is not absorbed but dispersed unless bullets are suddenly made out of some kind of liquid material that I don't know of :eek:?

Picture a magnified view of cloth. Kevlar is woven like any other cloth, but the material is tough and the weave is so tight that it creates a very difficult to break web. Now picture roughly 50-to 80 layers of that web. When the bullet strikes it is being slowed by one layer after another and the force of the shot is dissipating over the entirety of the vest, which will try to stop it from penetrating and causing the bullet nose to mushroom out and deform upon impact. So what's really happening when someone's vest takes a hit is that the bullet's force is being dispersed by layer after layer of chemically woven spiderweb that's just too tough to snap.

anyway I agree that it depends on the type of body armor how the bullet is dispersed by the vest, the vest will take the large part of the chock and spread but it still may hurt at some point on impact.

It would pierce into the armor, assuming it would not penetrate, and impose its power on the wearer and knock the guy back or over.

I specially looked for this video just for you, it is from mythbusters and actually points out the fact that when been shot, it will not cause you to fly several meters away nor are you knocked back, you just fall dawn like a sack of potatoes. Secondly they also point out somehow that they wanted to redo the test because some people were not convinced that you would not be knocked back.

The request of the critics was to do it over on the center of gravity with an extra plate to make sure the force is centered to the object, they also made the mayor effort for non believers to do it with a powerful weapon the vest still tried to disperse the impact but fails to halt the bullet as it was a 50 call cannon ball ...

ps: yes and the commentator also talks about absorbing near the end of the video but take a closer look what happened with the bullet ;-) the difference with smaller caliber fire arms is that a smaller bullet will most likely have been stopped and flattened out or in other words mushroomed out "depending on bullet type and body armor type" it would have been more in the line like this ...

right not absorbed :p

best of regards

Edited August 23, 2013 by LiquitHQ
gramma

[maturin 12]

Lol watch carefully, both rifle shots hit the body armor from an angle of about 30-45 degree, so basically it ricocheted and bounced away from the armor. However if the bullet hit the armor from the front at 90 degree, it would pierce into the armor, assuming it would not penetrate, and impose its power on the wearer and knock the guy back or over.

Uh... no. That was only a very few degrees from a perpendicular shot. No conical projectile is going to ricochet from an angle that high. If the bullet had been capable of partial penetration (which it was not), the slight offset of angle would increase the effective thickness of the vest. But you can't go and claim that 10-20 degrees of angle is going to make the difference between utter failure of the plate and a perfect defense. You know very well yourself that modern body armor can stop all manner of rifle rounds at point blanks, so don't try to wiggle out from underneath the evidence. You have no idea where the bullet went, but if it bounced at such an angle, the firer would probably be dead now, having performed such tests hundreds of times.

Also, you're last sentence betrays hilariously incorrect knowledge of 5th grade physics. A bullet that shatters against a vest and a bullet that come to rest in a human torso impart the same amount of force. A bullet that slows to a halt in tissue acts upon its recipient over a longer period time, so the victim effectively experiences less 'knockdown power.' If any man was ever going to be knocked down by the force of a bullet impact (and not the biological result of being wounded), it is the man whose body armor stops the bullet.

Not to mention that they fail to tell you what ammo type they were using. Would it be a high-power AP bullet, the result could be catastrophic.

7.62mm NATO Ball round. The sort that would be fired from a tank's coaxial gun, for example.

Edited August 23, 2013 by maturin

[icewindo 29]

Luckily I've never been shot but this soldiers seems not to comply with the "a shot will not make you fall" science.

In this video afaik (according to an documentary on this case) he was hit directly where a ballistic plate was under.

I think there's too many factors to include proper "falling down" so I kinda like the current reaction to bullets. Compared to ArmA2 the system is allready better, as you only had blood as a visual reference of a shot. Now the body twitches a little.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Icewindo

[becubed 24]

Lol watch carefully, both rifle shots hit the body armor from an angle of about 30-45 degree, so basically it ricocheted and bounced away from the armor. However if the bullet hit the armor from the front at 90 degree, it would pierce into the armor, assuming it would not penetrate, and impose its power on the wearer and knock the guy back or over.

Not to mention that they fail to tell you what ammo type they were using. Would it be a high-power AP bullet, the result could be catastrophic.

No a rifle bullet will not knock someone down via force and a type III vest will stop a FMJ bullet. The definition of a Lvl3 vest is that it WILL stop a 7.62 FMJ bullet at 847m/s, this is about 50m/s higher than the muzzle velocity from an M40 sniper rifle. A level4 vest will stop an AP bullet at a similar velocity. US troops wear armour up to level IV.

The effect on a person that is shot varies greatly, sometimes an insigificant wound proves fatal, I can remember reading years ago about a US police man that managed to shoot himself in the toe with his own pistol while buying a burger. He collapsed and later died of shock. The Blackhawk Down book has statements from some of the soldiers that they witnessed unarmoured people being shot mutliple times while running across streets, they could see the bullet impacts, and the targets didn't even slow down.

[maturin 12]

Please read the thread. People fall down when they are shot because it is painful, shocking and scary. The force imparted is negligible.

However, I would be in favor of bullet impacts usually knocking ArmA units prone precisely because of the human psychological reaction.

[dayglow 2]

Lol watch carefully, both rifle shots hit the body armor from an angle of about 30-45 degree, so basically it ricocheted and bounced away from the armor. However if the bullet hit the armor from the front at 90 degree, it would pierce into the armor, assuming it would not penetrate, and impose its power on the wearer and knock the guy back or over.

Not to mention that they fail to tell you what ammo type they were using. Would it be a high-power AP bullet, the result could be catastrophic.

Then the person firing the rifle would be knocked down by the equal amount of power from firing the round. Basic physics

[maturin 12]

The force imparted be recoil is slightly less than the force imparted by the bullet shattering on body armor, but only slightly (since we're talking about basic physics).

A through-and-through bullet wound probably won't act on the victim with the majority of the kinetic energy.

[Yashamalu 10]

Uh... no. That was only a very few degrees from a perpendicular shot. No conical projectile is going to ricochet from an angle that high. If the bullet had been capable of partial penetration (which it was not), the slight offset of angle would increase the effective thickness of the vest. But you can't go and claim that 10-20 degrees of angle is going to make the difference between utter failure of the plate and a perfect defense. You know very well yourself that modern body armor can stop all manner of rifle rounds at point blanks, so don't try to wiggle out from underneath the evidence. You have no idea where the bullet went, but if it bounced at such an angle, the firer would probably be dead now, having performed such tests hundreds of times.

Take a look at where they stood, it is clear that while the wearer was facing directly to the west, the shooter was facing somewhat north-east. Also whether the body armor can stop bullets depends on the type of bullet and armor, and the shooter would be fine cause the bullet would probably bounce to somewhere else, and no there's no such thing as "performed such tests hundreds of times" in this video.

---------- Post added at 05:09 ---------- Previous post was at 05:06 ----------

[/color]

Then the person firing the rifle would be knocked down by the equal amount of power from firing the round. Basic physics

[/color]

Correct, but what I suggested is that in real life when solider got hit, they would be knocked back or down. When you are firing a rifle, you would hold your stances to resist the recoil, however if you are getting hit while standing still unprepared, your stance would be disrupted.

---------- Post added at 05:13 ---------- Previous post was at 05:09 ----------

No a rifle bullet will not knock someone down via force and a type III vest will stop a FMJ bullet. The definition of a Lvl3 vest is that it WILL stop a 7.62 FMJ bullet at 847m/s, this is about 50m/s higher than the muzzle velocity from an M40 sniper rifle. A level4 vest will stop an AP bullet at a similar velocity. US troops wear armour up to level IV.

The effect on a person that is shot varies greatly, sometimes an insigificant wound proves fatal, I can remember reading years ago about a US police man that managed to shoot himself in the toe with his own pistol while buying a burger. He collapsed and later died of shock. The Blackhawk Down book has statements from some of the soldiers that they witnessed unarmoured people being shot mutliple times while running across streets, they could see the bullet impacts, and the targets didn't even slow down.

Let me just give you a quick example: You are standing still and get hit by 7.62 right to your belly at 90 degrees, unless you are well prepared for that, your body will react to that force and you would likely to lose balance. In order to regain control of your body, you would likely to step back and in case you fail to respond and lose balance, you would fall down. So let me be clear about one issue: I've never mentioned in my reply or the post that it is due to the force so great that people gets knock down, but simply that in real life soldiers would get knock down when hit.

---------- Post added at 05:18 ---------- Previous post was at 05:13 ----------

Luckily I've never been shot but this soldiers seems not to comply with the "a shot will not make you fall" science.

In this video afaik (according to an documentary on this case) he was hit directly where a ballistic plate was under.

I think there's too many factors to include proper "falling down" so I kinda like the current reaction to bullets. Compared to ArmA2 the system is allready better, as you only had blood as a visual reference of a shot. Now the body twitches a little.

Thx and I've watched another version of that video before and it is quiet lol in the end that the shooters got chased by a Hummer!

---------- Post added at 05:33 ---------- Previous post was at 05:18 ----------

Also, you're last sentence betrays hilariously incorrect knowledge of 5th grade physics. A bullet that shatters against a vest and a bullet that come to rest in a human torso impart the same amount of force. A bullet that slows to a halt in tissue acts upon its recipient over a longer period time, so the victim effectively experiences less 'knockdown power.' If any man was ever going to be knocked down by the force of a bullet impact (and not the biological result of being wounded), it is the man whose body armor stops the bullet.

Your entire paragraph demonstrates that not only do you lack basic physic knowledge, but also linguistics knowledge. You need only take a look at my reply to Becubed above.

Clearly you forgot how human body, which is flexible, reacts to impact.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Yashamalu

[maturin 12]

Take a look at where they stood, it is clear that while the wearer was facing directly to the west, the shooter was facing somewhat north-east. Also whether the body armor can stop bullets depends on the type of bullet and armor, and the shooter would be fine cause the bullet would probably bounce to somewhere else, and no there's no such thing as "performed such tests hundreds of times" in this video.

They were both slanted and the torso is a rounded object. It's still a negligible angle of attack. Bullets are designed to penetrate, and modern AP rounds are only marginally affected by angles up to 45 degrees. And a full 45 degrees this was not.

The designer in the video says he has been shot over 200 times wearing armor.

Now, if you were talking about the pistol shot, that one probably ricocheted.

Correct, but what I suggested is that in real life when solider got hit, they would be knocked back or down. When you are firing a rifle, you would hold your stances to resist the recoil, however if you are getting hit while standing still unprepared, your stance would be disrupted.

Dude, this is precisely what the video disproves. It has nothing to with your stance. The man in that video was standing on one leg!!!

People fall down for mental or medical reasons. It has nothing to do with balance or preparation. It is certainly possible that you could be tripped up by the sudden force changing your balance slights, especially if you were in mid run, but that would be the exception.

So let me be clear about one issue: I've never mentioned in my reply or the post that it is due to the force so great that people gets knock down, but simply that in real life soldiers would get knock down when hit.

You absolutely did in the first post of yours I quoted. And still you are using very imprecise terms that can be interpreted that way. As quoted above in my post.

Your entire paragraph demonstrates that not only do you lack basic physic knowledge, but also linguistics knowledge. You need only take a look at my reply to Becubed above.

Clearly you forgot how human body, which is flexible, reacts to impact.

Your move then, bucko. Take me to school.

A bullet has X joules of kinetic energy whether it hits body armor or flesh. No more, no less. Please tell me how a bullet will only knock you down if it goes through the vest.

Edit: Or perhaps your physics knowledge isn't so terrible, and your sentences are just poorly written. "if the bullet hit the armor from the front at 90 degree, it would pierce into the armor, assuming it would not penetrate, and impose its power on the wearer and knock the guy back or over."

While the bolded portion is factually wrong and is a statement you are now sneakily disavowing, I misread the rather messy diction of the italics. FYI, successful body armor does not allow the bullet to 'pierce into' it. That's what tank armor does. Body armor is supposed to defeat the projectile utterly by shattering it, or in the case of kevlar and (IIRC) ceramics, deform flexibly.

Edited August 24, 2013 by maturin

[KEVINMGXP 20]

Let me just give you a quick example: You are standing still and get hit by 7.62 right to your belly at 90 degrees, unless you are well prepared for that, your body will react to that force and you would likely to lose balance. In order to regain control of your body, you would likely to step back and in case you fail to respond and lose balance, you would fall down. So let me be clear about one issue: I've never mentioned in my reply or the post that it is due to the force so great that people gets knock down, but simply that in real life soldiers would get knock down when hit.

Nicely recovered but not quite good enough :p you did mentioned several times a person would be knocked back, suddenly saying it does not makes no difference to a lot of people around here.

Force....

Assuming the gun and shooter are at rest, the force on the bullet is equal to that on the one that is shooting.

This is due to Newton's third law of motion (For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction). Consider a system where the gun and shooter have a combined mass M and the bullet has a mass m. When the gun is fired, the two systems move away from one another with new velocities V and v respectively. But the law of conservation of momentum states that the magnitudes of their momenta must be equal.

Kinetic Energy

However, the smaller mass of the bullet, compared that of the gun-shooter system, allows significantly more kinetic energy to be imparted to the bullet than to the shooter. The ratio of the kinetic energies is the same as the ratio of the masses (and is independent of velocity). Since the mass of the bullet is much less than that of the shooter there is more kinetic energy transferred to the bullet than to the shooter. Once discharged from the weapon, the bullet's energy decays throughout its flight, until the remainder is dissipated by colliding with a target.

Transfer of Energy

When the bullet strikes, its high velocity and small frontal cross-section means that it will exert large stresses in any object it hits. This usually results in it penetrating any soft object, such as flesh. The energy is then dissipated in the wound track formed by the passage of the bullet.

With body armor it works differently,

The vest's material, usually Aramid (Kevlar or Twaron), works by presenting a series of material layers which catch the bullet and spread its imparted force over a larger area, hopefully bringing the round to a stop before it can penetrate into the body. While the vest can prevent a bullet from penetrating, the wearer may still be affected by the kinetic energy of the bullet, which can produce serious internal injuries.

Destructive effects

The immediate damaging effect of the bullet is typically severe bleeding, and with it the potential for hypovolemic shock, a condition characterized by inadequate delivery of oxygen to vital organs. In the case of traumatic hypovolemic shock, this failure of adequate oxygen delivery is due to blood loss. In other word people stumbles to the ground, so the falling down part is not quite right either, this is deu to the pain and the shock the victim will receive trough the gunshot .....

Looking at impact on body armor so far I think that Arma3 is somehow close to how it should be, the video posted here

by Icewindo confirms it at least for me.

best of regards

Edited August 24, 2013 by LiquitHQ

[Yashamalu 10]

Please stopping thinking as if you are the only one who's been to high school, and as I already told you, it is "not due to the force so great" but due to how the human body works that people gets knocked down, which is clearly seen in "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXMjh_XbkiI". Try denying that.

---------- Post added at 09:22 ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 ----------

They were both slanted and the torso is a rounded object. It's still a negligible angle of attack. Bullets are designed to penetrate, and modern AP rounds are only marginally affected by angles up to 45 degrees. And a full 45 degrees this was not.

The designer in the video says he has been shot over 200 times wearing armor.

That's nothing I could help you if you want to keep denying the fact in the video...

---------- Post added at 09:26 ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 ----------

Dude, this is precisely what the video disproves. It has nothing to with your stance. The man in that video was standing on one leg!!!

People fall down for mental or medical reasons. It has nothing to do with balance or preparation. It is certainly possible that you could be tripped up by the sudden force changing your balance slights, especially if you were in mid run, but that would be the exception.

The wearer in the video clearly knew that when and where he will be hit, so he could adjust his weight distribution in the first place. If you are standing still relaxing, and suddenly someone push you hard from the front, you would probably fall back or fall down; But had you knew what is coming, you would hold your ground, simple as that.

---------- Post added at 09:28 ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 ----------

You absolutely did in the first post of yours I quoted. And still you are using very imprecise terms that can be interpreted that way. As quoted above in my post.

Than please by all means enlighten me by showing us the exact phrase I used to claim whatever you believed that I claimed.

---------- Post added at 09:32 ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 ----------

A bullet has X joules of kinetic energy whether it hits body armor or flesh. No more, no less. Please tell me how a bullet will only knock you down if it goes through the vest.

What else are you expecting? And how does the statement relate to the previous demonstration of your high school physics?

---------- Post added at 09:37 ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 ----------

Edit: Or perhaps your physics knowledge isn't so terrible, and your sentences are just poorly written. "if the bullet hit the armor from the front at 90 degree, it would pierce into the armor, assuming it would not penetrate, and impose its power on the wearer and knock the guy back or over."

While the bolded portion is factually wrong and is a statement you are now sneakily disavowing, I misread the rather messy diction of the italics. FYI, successful body armor does not allow the bullet to 'pierce into' it. That's what tank armor does. Body armor is supposed to defeat the projectile utterly by shattering it, or in the case of kevlar and (IIRC) ceramics, deform flexibly.

To what statement are you referring to that I'm "sneakily disavowing"?! Also you are adding additional contents into the argument which distorts the nature of the original debate. "successful body armor", "Body armor is supposed to". All of a sudden you felt the need to change some elements in your statements...

[dayglow 2]

There isn't one single physiological reaction to being shot. Falling down maybe one of them, but it isn't the only one.

[Yashamalu 10]

There isn't one single physiological reaction to being shot. Falling down maybe one of them, but it isn't the only one.

Right, which is why I always used "would" not "will".