[SP]Dynamic Universal War System (DUWS alpha0.1)

[iceman77 18]

nvm. Sp only.

[thegeekdiver 10]

nvm. Sp only.

This works MP. Just not on a dedicated server at this point.

[arewenotmen 10]

I attempted to flag up the disinterested AI problem to BIS, but got the expected standard line of 'we can't fix/debug third party content'.

What can we do? Currently we're at something of an impasse.

Depending on the complexity, I'm happy to put some effort into debugging this and producing a reproducible scenario stripped of everything else, but I'd need help.

[kibot 2]

I attempted to flag up the disinterested AI problem to BIS, but got the expected standard line of 'we can't fix/debug third party content'.

Show them that: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=14232

I even wrote how to reproduce the bug, and it's certainly not related to a "third party content". It's an engine/scripting command bug.

If they are still telling you that "they can't fix third party content", they are either stupid, or don't want to fix it (or both).

I'm not using a single AI script, except the built in functions by BIS to spawn units and create patrols. And I seriously doubt that for some reason, a simple "addwaypoint" command to a squad would cause all the AI on the island to stop engaging each other (and even if it was, it would be an engine bug).

So, either I'm dumb and I'm doing something wrong(and enlighten me pls, because this bug has been a torn in my foot for a long time now), or they just don't give a shit about that.

Also, regarding:

'we can't fix/debug third party content'.

With the release of ArmA3, BIS showed clearly that they were fully relying on the community to add content to their game.

In fact, they better help mission makers, or they are shooting themselves in the foot. Especially when the only playable campaigns are third party.

[arewenotmen 10]

I raised this: http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=15559 and did reference said bug, but it was closed straight away. I can see why but it doesn't help. I actually can't reproduce the fog issue in my own editor testing; the AI shoots me every time.

I'll keep looking into it.

---------- Post added at 19:04 ---------- Previous post was at 17:46 ----------

Right, two things.

One, it's a scaling issue. One enemy base and they seem to behave. Twenty and it's pretty much guaranteed that they'll not engage.

Two, here's a video I made of it happening to me. I simply start a campaign with 20 enemy zones, and go out in a helicopter to one.

(give it a while)

I've done a few of these runs now and here are my observations.

• When I turn up in the helo, they don't engage me, nor on foot.
  
• If I'd bothered to take a friendly AI team member, I would be calling out all the enemies I saw
  
• When I save the game, then once the game is done saving, this is often a trigger for them to attack me.
  
• If I fire at the ground around them, sometimes this triggers them into firing. It definitely has something to do with proximity. It doesn't always work though.
  
• Even when they're shooting at me, I can often run off and escape.
  
• Sometimes they shoot at something else! I think in the video, one fires a grenade, it blows up and then they shoot at the explosion? I've seen this plenty of times.
  
• Another example is if I use the MG mounted on a pickup (not in this vid), and fire at them, they sometimes shoot for some time at the vehicle, but never at me.
  

It's almost like they're really, really unskilled, but I tried various levels in the editor and they all returned fire without incident.

I can't see how this can be your fault, but I also don't hold out much hope for isolating the problem as it stands.

Edited October 21, 2013 by arewenotmen

[LoneCrow66 10]

Yeah I saw them close that ticket citing that this IS a scripting issue with the person who wrote the mod.

I dunno about that but I just wish it worked, this is a potentially cool mod.

[kibot 2]

If it is related to the amount of zones, it probably related to the amount of created groups.

Can other people check if the bug can be reproduced with 20 zones with a radius between 1000 and 1500 ?

edit: if it is the case, it would probably be related to the engine group limitation, I hope this is the case, so we can finally fix this problem.

Edited October 21, 2013 by kibot

[LoneCrow66 10]

I've had the ai stop firing with only 3 zones.

Usually I found the ai stops responding if I go afk or there is no action for a while.

[thegeekdiver 10]

If it is related to the amount of zones, it probably related to the amount of created groups.

Can other people check if the bug can be reproduced with 20 zones with a radius between 1000 and 1500 ?

edit: if it is the case, it would probably be related to the engine group limitation, I hope this is the case, so we can finally fix this problem.

seems to be either zone limit or squad size limit as well... if you have a HUGE company sized unit under your direct command it will break as well.

So far my tests and results:

Test #1

20 Zones all other settings defaults, spawned one heli, AI shot at both the heli and my solider on foot.

Test #2

All above settings the same changed start CP 60 and 19 zones. Ai again shot at my character and my heli.

I did tests like this until 10 zones. All with the same outcome. I am going to continue testing with AI skill levels at different settings next.

Ran the above tests with different AI settings still can't get them NOT to engage right now. My next tests will be maxing out AP and zone radius.

Okay finally got a fail:

20 Zones 110 OpFor AP 2000 zone radius.

Multiple fails with different levels it's all based on unit count that the pc needs to control.

Computer Specs

i5 i5 3770k (oc 4.5)

Geforce 670 2gb

32GB Ram

Arma III runs on a 120gb ssd drive.

My conclusion to the engagement issue is we are pushing the arma iii engine to the limit at some point in the scripting process. It just can't take anymore and it picks what it's willing to focus on and what it decides is AI is low on the todo list of processes. Being new to the scripting side of ARMA III it's hard to say a fix but an idea off the bat would be a blufor present trigger that is 1-2km larger than the zone radius and the units will not spawn until the trigger is hit? This would just be for zones the AP units will still do their seek and destroy missions. Any thoughts?

Add-on: The UAV ability would need to be tweaked on this making it an actual blufor unit that does the trigger.

Edited October 21, 2013 by thegeekdiver

[arewenotmen 10]

I did create my own scenario (nothing to do with DUWS) with the maximum number of groups for one faction, 144 enemy patrols I think, and a whole bunch of radius zones. I still got shot at.

I'll keep meddling with the DUWS options and see what I get, but it'll be tomorrow night at the earliest. I just ran one with the default 8 zones and they shot down my helicopter.

Do the number of groups or zones change over time? The army powers grow so I guess so.

Edit: so just to add that in the last hour, I ran these, all defaults except the zones as below and the starting CP was 60 so I could have a helo. No squad and I went directly to the enemy.

20: Fail

20: Fail

8: Pass

20: Fail

14: Fail

8: Pass

11: Pass

Edited October 21, 2013 by arewenotmen

[thegeekdiver 10]

I did create my own scenario (nothing to do with DUWS) with the maximum number of groups for one faction, 144 enemy patrols I think, and a whole bunch of radius zones. I still got shot at.

I'll keep meddling with the DUWS options and see what I get, but it'll be tomorrow night at the earliest. I just ran one with the default 8 zones and they shot down my helicopter.

Do the number of groups or zones change over time? The army powers grow so I guess so.

Edit: so just to add that in the last hour, I ran these, all defaults except the zones as below and the starting CP was 60 so I could have a helo. No squad and I went directly to the enemy.

20: Fail

20: Fail

8: Pass

20: Fail

14: Fail

8: Pass

What's your computer specs? I curious if it's the ability for our computers to process the units.

[arewenotmen 10]

What's your computer specs? I curious if it's the ability for our computers to process the units.

AMD X4 955

8GB RAM

GeForce GTX 560 Ti

Win7 x64

Running Arma at 1920x1200, medium/high settings. It's a bit slower (menus in particular) at higher zone numbers. You may be right. Off to bed now.

[mmtaraval 1]

Does version .75 utilize a delete script to clean up the dead?

[thegeekdiver 10]

Does version .75 utilize a delete script to clean up the dead?

just wait/rest at a FOB/Main base it runs the clean-up script

[timsk 10]

just wait/rest at a FOB/Main base it runs the clean-up script

V.75 has a constant cleanup script running now.

Interesting stuff with the tests of the AI guys. It certainly seems to be related to having a lot of AI units on the map.

Arma 3's documentation says that there is no limit on groups or group members (although there was in previous games). It certainly sounds like the AI isn't being processed. It also seems to depend on how fast your computer is (better computer = higher amount of AI, makes sense).

The way I see it, there is only one fix for this. Remove any opfor units that aren't within 2km of blufor units, then recreate them when a blufor unit gets within 2km. I can't see that causing any gameplay issues myself...

[arewenotmen 10]

Arma 3's documentation says that there is no limit on groups or group members (although there was in previous games)

That's funny, because the inbuilt editor complains if you add over 144 groups to one side (e.g. BLUFOR). It's easy to check with a copy and paste of multiple groups. Perhaps it's just a hangover from older games - there were people mentioning it on here in 2010.

[Frostiken 10]

Is there a bug with the 'crewmen' from a vehicle?

I only ask because I was attacking a point and damaged a tank to the point that the crewmembers jumped out. While playing with the default difficultly (0.2 - 0.5 I think), the crewmembers ended up acting like some Seal Team Six elites, sniping me and killing me pretty much instantly with their little PDWs, even if I was barely poking me head out. Two guys from a tank basically killed my entire squad in a matter of seconds when I sent them in to engage.

As a suggestion, would it be possible to tie the contents of the VAB to your army power? It kind of feels like cheating to instantly give myself this ninja shit like the Nightstalker scope for just a measly 8 CP. I was kind of a fan of the Evolution game mode in Arma 1, where your rank allowed you to get better gear and use better weapons. As it is I usually start a game and send my first grenadier to his death just so I can grab his rifle.

Also, and I know a custom setup is probably what I want, but I really think there's not enough stuff to do in the mountains to the north-west. I assume the zones are picked from a list... if so, there's so much weighting towards the eastern shore that if you play with more than the normal number of zones, sometimes they end up overlapping each other. Would be nice to have the zones evenly spread across the terrain and concentrated in cities more.

Finally, what's the deal with the squad / unit selection costs? If I buy two grenadiers, an autogunner, and an AT specialist it would cost me something like 12 CP. If I buy a Fireteam and then assign them to me it costs only 8...

PS: I created a custom setup. My HQ spawned okay, the test enemy zone spawned okay, but the 'test squad' you spawn in the ocean with is still assigned to me, and the options menu for the game never popped up. Is this normal?

Edited October 22, 2013 by Frostiken

[timsk 10]

Hi Frostiken, I'll try to address your points one by one.

I only ask because I was attacking a point and damaged a tank to the point that the crewmembers jumped out. While playing with the default difficultly (0.2 - 0.5 I think), the crewmembers ended up acting like some Seal Team Six elites, sniping me and killing me pretty much instantly with their little PDWs, even if I was barely poking me head out. Two guys from a tank basically killed my entire squad in a matter of seconds when I sent them in to engage.

This sounds too contextual to be able to check really. I've fought plenty of vehicles and I usually end up fighting the crew, but I don't notice that they are better or worse than normal infantrymen. It's probably more of a tactics thing, I usually get my friend (who is a sniper, with a squad of spotters and snipers) in position when me and my squad take out a vehicle. He can then pop-off the crewmen as they come out the vehicle... it's all about organization ;).

As a suggestion, would it be possible to tie the contents of the VAB to your army power? It kind of feels like cheating to instantly give myself this ninja shit like the Nightstalker scope for just a measly 8 CP. I was kind of a fan of the Evolution game mode in Arma 1, where your rank allowed you to get better gear and use better weapons. As it is I usually start a game and send my first grenadier to his death just so I can grab his rifle.

Good suggestion. I like the idea of 'upgrading' your armory. Or it upgrading as you gather more AP. The only problem I have with this is, a grenade launcher might be worth more to one player than another. It's hard to balance the 'gifting' of equipment, it's too dependent on gameplay style.

Also, and I know a custom setup is probably what I want, but I really think there's not enough stuff to do in the mountains to the north-west. I assume the zones are picked from a list... if so, there's so much weighting towards the eastern shore that if you play with more than the normal number of zones, sometimes they end up overlapping each other. Would be nice to have the zones evenly spread across the terrain and concentrated in cities more.

Definitely a valid concern. The code looks for flat, open areas to place enemy emplacements and that whole mountain area is pretty much off-limits for that sort of thing. The right hand side of the map just happens to be more flat then the center, or left. I've been thinking of solutions to this for a while but haven't come up with anything great yet.

Finally, what's the deal with the squad / unit selection costs? If I buy two grenadiers, an autogunner, and an AT specialist it would cost me something like 12 CP. If I buy a Fireteam and then assign them to me it costs only 8...

Never noticed that really... Good point tho, the costs of units and squads definitely needs to be reviewed.

Thanks for the feedback :)

[arewenotmen 10]

OK, so some more testing. I can't reproduce this outside the scenario. It's not complex enough, as in the triggers don't have any behaviours and there are no waypoints, but I produced this:

http://crap.wapoc.com/armatest.jpg (232 kB)

That's 10-15 groups per zone, 8 or so units per group, 12 populated zones and then some, so conservatively maybe a thousand units. The game chugs along at 5fps or so but I still get consistently shot at.

Next, to test the opposite of that, I knocked the quality settings and resolution down, and tried DUWS. It runs much more smoothly, but the AI still don't engage me with 20 zones. Yet again, I observed that saving (via the ordinary game menu) would cause them to engage me.

Still with reduced settings, in further tests with 14 and 15 zones, they did attack me, albeit after a bit of a delay - I could land the helicopter on top of them. Yesterday, 14 zones was a failure.

Not sure what to make of this.

[Frostiken 10]

Thanks for making a sweet addon!

Also, I think you caught my post before I added my bit on the end regarding a custom game setup. I changed the two values in init.sqf and created two gameLogic points with the appropriate stuff and while the game starts and loads a zone okay, that weird 'debug squad' you spawn in the ocean with is still assigned to me and the options menu for the game never pops up allowing me to set fast travel settings and such. I flew over the enemy zone and everything appeared to set up there correctly but I didn't play beyond that point.

[kibot 2]

V.75 has a constant cleanup script running now.

You have not told me that you have added this the mission.

I just took a look at the script, the script has been made by aeroson and I didn't credited him because I wasn't even aware of such script. Also, 5 minutes is really too short.

I'll change this on the next version this week end and I will make sure the changelogs are complete this time.

It's my fault, I should have double checked the version you sent me before release. The last thing I want are changes made to the mission without my consent, especially if I'm the one who's releasing the thing in the end :).

edit:

Frostiken: you might want to change the fast travel value in the init. I'll check the other bugs this w-e.

arewenotmen: thanks for giving us trying to debug the mission and keeping us informed.

[arewenotmen 10]

No problem. Let me know if there's anything I can do; this will still be an interesting mission once the campaign is released, so happy to help. I'm also a professional software engineer.

[kurtz1 10]

I like having the option to run cleanup when I want.

[CPT_C.Bowyer 10]

It's in my (very) late to do list, reasons:

-I'm very novice with multiplayer scripting and debugging (thoses JIP problems and dedicated/listen differences, annoying...)

-I don't own any dedicated server for testing & debugging, meaning that if I develop something for dedicated servers, I'll be doing it blind since I can't test if things work

-I don't have any testers right now. But hey, since I'm not developing for MP yet it's not a big deal, I need to get the 2 things above right before asking for testers

Well i can help you with that

i have 3 servers available for your testing and i can provide the testers.

I'm sure you would like to have the ability to use these servers to be able to further advance into making a perfect mission.

You can contact me on steam (czbow97) for more info & if you do feel like making it available to dedicated servers i am willing to support it in anyway.

keep up the good work.

[timsk 10]

You have not told me that you have added this the mission.

Ahh, I totally forgot to mention that bit to you, sorry. I mentioned it here so it just didn't cross my mind to add it in the PM to you. I left the credit to aeroson in the code. But yeh, should probably add him to the mission credits.

My original plan was to add the cleanup time to the setup GUI so it was configurable but I've never played with the GUI stuff in Arma. You think you could add that Kibot?

I'm currently still working on the high command waypoint stuff and the syncing of radio chatter to clients. As well as trying to figure out what the hells going on with the AI not engaging people.

From the different reports from people it really looks like we are running into an engine limitation somewhere. The way I see it, there are 3 problems it could be running into:

having too many units, too many groups or something else.

I have run a game with 1,000 units and it chugged along at 30FPS (I usually get 40-50). They were split into groups of ten, so that's 100 groups. Everyone shot me (a lot!).

Either way, the fix I mentioned earlier (to remove opfor units too far from any blufor units) would fix it I think.... anyone feel like implementing that? :).