Vehicles need gears

[progamer 14]

Opps wrong thread.

Edited July 30, 2013 by ProGamer

[khugan 24]

I made a similar request 2 years ago for Arma 2. It says it is assigned, but I'm not really sure what that means. I was asking for a low gear that would roughly keep pace with infantry.

https://dev-heaven.net/issues/17962

[Frankdatank1218 39]

At the very least, there should just be two gears, "Low Gear" and "High gear". Low just being higher torque, lower speed (still much faster offroad than current) while high gear is obviously the opposite. Just slap the option into the action menu. That's at least the quickest and dirtiest solution.

EDIT: If you were to add in full amounts of gears, in this WASD PC gaming world you could just make the up and down arrow keys shift gears.

[Bee8190 10]

At the very least, there should just be two gears, "Low Gear" and "High gear". Low just being higher torque, lower speed (still much faster offroad than current) while high gear is obviously the opposite. Just slap the option into the action menu. That's at least the quickest and dirtiest solution.

EDIT: If you were to add in full amounts of gears, in this WASD PC gaming world you could just make the up and down arrow keys shift gears.

I see your point but I think vehicles in A2 had quite few of those dirty quick solutions and I think this should be avoided this time around. Ever actually.

About the high & low gear, that should be up to user to stay in low RPM and low gear. Using an xbox controller it's quite easy but doesn't of course work on keyboard. Another solution could be by locking particular gear, say 2nd, and using the keys Q would just limit the amount of gas applied, meaning -

2nd gear locked, with Q key pressed, would equal throttle pressure of 33% ( IRL, say about ~ 2200 engine revs/RPM and 15Km/Hr )

2nd gear locked, with W + shift or E key pressed, would push the throttle to 100% ( IRL, about ~ 7000 engine revs but maximum speed of only ~ 30Km/Hr)

3th gear locked, with Q key pressed would deliver again only 33% of throttle pressure but obviously higher-ish speed of say, 50Km/Hr

The gear unlock-ing would basically happen as soon as the throttle key W or W+Shift is applied. Again though, this could be one of the ways how to deal with keyboard driving but getting a controller would be probably the easiest solution.

---------- Post added at 10:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:46 PM ----------

Here's is some feedback on some of the vehicles: :)

Civilian 4X4 off road

Nice new engine sound sample ( although little too quiet, applies to the 4X4, ATV and HEMTT vehicles ) and I like how engine goes full revs on reverse.

( Even though I presume its a diesel engine, would it be possible to rise the engine RPM limit just little higher? I think 15% more engine RPM (or the sound-feedback of RPM) would then be spot on )

I like how the handling & turning feels like driving an SUV or one/some of the bigger vehicles, although handling and steering still little sluggish or even bit laggy on input.

I am not sure to what extend is the suspension tweakable or implemented, but for example under braking, the vehicle rebound is visually sluggish and slow. I think increasing the rebound shock (the push back force) by 20% could result in more natural feeling to it.

( By rebound I mean when the weight transfer under braking is over and the front ( shocks ) pushing the vehicle to its original ( standstill - stand by ) position )

I also noticed that the rear height of the vehicle is perhaps bit too high and looks unnatural when looked on from side. Some SUV's have the rear height higher IRL but it's usually custom made ( for the same reason people lower their cars or add more camber to their wheels ) but by manufacturer, the ride height would be nearly identical, to naked eye at least :)

On the other hand while the ( front ) ride height is fine, the front suspension is rather too stiff and the travel room is quite limited, at least visually, which is noticeable while braking and the front should go lower just little more ( pressing harder on front shocks ).

The transmission - Not sure what can be done with it but all the gears are too short in every vehicle. The transmission should hold on longer, effectively using all of the engine rev range before switching to higher gear. Currently every gear only use about 1500 RPM before switching to another gear.

Here are some weird (vibration like ) shadows from rear wheels as seen on pic. and it does not look like its the heat haze from exhaust?

I meant to comment on the hunter handling ( which is very much mostly positive ;) ) but leave that for later. I hope my feedback doesn't go into too much detail and will be found also useful :)

[bohen 10]

+1 !

i like the idea it will be fun for get some drift :3

[pettka 694]

Here's is some feedback on some of the vehicles: :)

Civilian 4X4 off road

Nice new engine sound sample ( although little too quiet, applies to the 4X4, ATV and HEMTT vehicles ) and I like how engine goes full revs on reverse.

( Even though I presume its a diesel engine, would it be possible to rise the engine RPM limit just little higher? I think 15% more engine RPM (or the sound-feedback of RPM) would then be spot on )

I like how the handling & turning feels like driving an SUV or one/some of the bigger vehicles, although handling and steering still little sluggish or even bit laggy on input.

I am not sure to what extend is the suspension tweakable or implemented, but for example under braking, the vehicle rebound is visually sluggish and slow. I think increasing the rebound shock (the push back force) by 20% could result in more natural feeling to it.

( By rebound I mean when the weight transfer under braking is over and the front ( shocks ) pushing the vehicle to its original ( standstill - stand by ) position )

I also noticed that the rear height of the vehicle is perhaps bit too high and looks unnatural when looked on from side. Some SUV's have the rear height higher IRL but it's usually custom made ( for the same reason people lower their cars or add more camber to their wheels ) but by manufacturer, the ride height would be nearly identical, to naked eye at least :)

On the other hand while the ( front ) ride height is fine, the front suspension is rather too stiff and the travel room is quite limited, at least visually, which is noticeable while braking and the front should go lower just little more ( pressing harder on front shocks ).

The transmission - Not sure what can be done with it but all the gears are too short in every vehicle. The transmission should hold on longer, effectively using all of the engine rev range before switching to higher gear. Currently every gear only use about 1500 RPM before switching to another gear.

http://imageshack.us/a/img580/5452/vir9.th.jpg

Here are some weird (vibration like ) shadows from rear wheels as seen on pic. and it does not look like its the heat haze from exhaust?

http://imageshack.us/a/img17/142/8kf8.th.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img823/4098/zxvh.th.jpg

http://imageshack.us/a/img845/6894/86hr.th.jpg

I meant to comment on the hunter handling ( which is very much mostly positive ;) ) but leave that for later. I hope my feedback doesn't go into too much detail and will be found also useful :)

Thanks for a great feedback, it is much appreciated :icon_twisted:

As for the using of RPM, the engine is based on actual diesel engine data and our transmission keeps the high torque values, there is mostly no need to go high revs to have an ideal torque output with a diesel engine. I'll take a closer look at the suspension as there may be some issue with distribution of mass and actual strength of damping, thanks again for a great input :icon_twisted:

[Bee8190 10]

Thank you for the kind words.

I am not sure if I entirely understood, but torque is not the only and essential force or a factor that makes the car move. Torque will get the car up to speed as a push force but its the horsepower ( generated by increasing engine RPM's ) that keeps the car going and keep it's speed, therefore it is essential that our engines generate higher RPM's.

Also while it all makes sense that the transmission is using most of the torque available, its also only one side of the coin.

Please see attached video, it's an audi Q7 with ''only'' 3.0TDI V6 engine with automatic transmission

More reference off road with Q7

Starts at 0:50

and 1:47

Now bit of feedback on:

Hunter military vehicle -

This vehicle handles pretty much exactly I'd imagine it should or does IRL. It feels heavy, like it carry its weight while turning yet the steering is quite lively and responsive. Good work on this one.

If we were to aim for even better, then the vehicle could carry just little more weight to it but only while turning. Thisone is hard for me to explain so as I can't think of anyt better explanation atm but, here we go - Imagine the car is full of water inside and to achieve this; more weight carrying while turning ( but only while turning ) we need the inside of the vehicle little more full of water.

There is also fair room for improvement on its sound. Currently it sounds rather un-interesting and very casual? When the vehicle is going fast on runway, it does give the impression like its in neutral gear or with very little throttle applied. Again, very little immersion in sounds but fairly decent work on its handling overall.

Collision seem to need more tweaks as when I hit an ATV in about 50Km/hr, the hunter tends to jump over it. Expected behaviour should be like a train meets a shopping trolley :)

Gears are also done best so far on this vehicle, however still far from ideal or authentic. Get go from stand still could be little more lively / dynamic.

Another issue is, and that applies to all vehicles, is that while turning, no power seem to be applied till the steering is straight again. (same as the reports of aircraft stalling while turning )

AMV-7 Marshall

Just great all around and my current favorite in game. The vehicle feels very heavy as it should yet the steering does what user tells it to. feels very authentic for me personally. The AMV-7 also hold its gears on inclines and use high RPM then any other vehicle and is just fun to drive around, as it feels like most finished vehicle available ingame.

Sound - could use more improvement though. It doesn't sound bad really but there is something missing. The engine doesn't sound aggressive enough? I still don't know. (more RPM :D )

Thanks for reading :)

Edited July 31, 2013 by Bee8190

[St. Jimmy 272]

Got to agree that BIS should give us maybe some higher rev in uphill just for the feeling that the vehicle is really trying to go uphill and maybe when accelerating with shift+w. The thing is BIS can't change much how vehicles accelerate or how fast they go on offroad because in reality the terrain isn't really that flat so this will be pretty much cosmic (speedometer) and audio (higher rpm in the engine) change.

Edited July 31, 2013 by St. Jimmy

[Bee8190 10]

Tear of joy filled my eyes! -

High engine RPM while turning, great work so far and do keep it up! ;)

The kamish opfor tracked vehicle is coming along nicely and I made some observation that I would like to get more attention to.

I noticed that while I quite like the sound of this tracked vehicle, it has very aggressive low tones / base and my subwoofer is going nuts whenever I drive this vehicle. Don't get me wrong, its punchy with lot of power but it is like I am listening to subwoofer only really. No doubt, subject to further tweaking but I thought I mention this anyway.

I also noticed ( already mentioned in some other thread ) the odd twitching / jerking of tracked vehicles that happens in medium to high speeds. I have no clue how the tracks are implemented nor how they work along with vehicle as whole but let me try - It would seem that the tracks are separate entity and operate only on engine / throttle input, which would explain why they currently live their own life under the vehicle. ( almost like the animation? is out of sync with anything other that the vehicle does )

If that would be even and only partially correct, I'd imagine linking / locking the tracks to the engine response would theoretically eliminate the jerky track movement, vehicle would not exceed any speed limits while rolling downhill (as that would be simply bound to max engine RPM's ) and would result in more precise driving and turning of the vehicles.

Another thing I appreciate is that as IRL, going uphill sideways makes a difference and is speedier , as opposed to going up the hill head on.

Well, my english is quite limited but if that doesn't make much sense please do let me know and I'll try to explain my assumption in more detail

Suggestion

I noticed how all vehicles share the same issue, I guess mostly due to the transmission and wanted to propose some changes that I believe would probably bring significant improvements right away and could be worth a go.

The situation -

Currently all our vehicle engines idle at far too low values of about 600 RPM and this result in the very slow forward movement up hills from stand still or low speeds but once the revs are ( still at rather low ) at ~ 1500 / 2000 RPM, the driver can take on any obstacle or hill in front of him or her.

Proposal - implementing some kind of limiter that would not allow the engine revs to drop under 1000 RPM.

Outcome - As the vehicles have no clutch ( and therefor be able to rev the engine higher with no gear engaged ), the expected outcome would be enough power at all times, even from standstill sitting on steep incline. As of now, there's very

noticeable delay before the vehicle start to move.

Reasoning - Some big engines as well racing car engines must idle as high as ~ 1100 RPM, otherwise the engine would stall itself and power off. but ofc, theres some more to it but its one of the reasons why race cars are being pushed from the

box.

Another suggestion would be to slow down the transmission. not how fast it can change gears, thats 100% fine but make it slower before it does change gears. What I mean is that it should keep the engaged gear for much longer before change to another occurs again.

If anyone made it this far, thank you for reading ;)

Edited August 1, 2013 by Bee8190

[nodunit 397]

Got to agree that BIS should give us maybe some higher rev in uphill just for the feeling that the vehicle is really trying to go uphill and maybe when accelerating with shift+w..

That probably has more to do with the sound as well, since sound is tied to speed rather than engine power which gives the impression that despite pushing itself hard uphill, it's doing quite the opposite.

Edited August 2, 2013 by NodUnit

[Tyl3r99 41]

Thank you for the kind words.

I am not sure if I entirely understood, but torque is not the only and essential force or a factor that makes the car move. Torque will get the car up to speed as a push force but its the horsepower ( generated by increasing engine RPM's ) that keeps the car going and keep it's speed, therefore it is essential that our engines generate higher RPM's.

Also while it all makes sense that the transmission is using most of the torque available, its also only one side of the coin.

Please see attached video, it's an audi Q7 with ''only'' 3.0TDI V6 engine with automatic transmission

More reference off road with Q7

Starts at 0:50

and 1:47

Now bit of feedback on:

Hunter military vehicle -

This vehicle handles pretty much exactly I'd imagine it should or does IRL. It feels heavy, like it carry its weight while turning yet the steering is quite lively and responsive. Good work on this one.

If we were to aim for even better, then the vehicle could carry just little more weight to it but only while turning. Thisone is hard for me to explain so as I can't think of anyt better explanation atm but, here we go - Imagine the car is full of water inside and to achieve this; more weight carrying while turning ( but only while turning ) we need the inside of the vehicle little more full of water.

There is also fair room for improvement on its sound. Currently it sounds rather un-interesting and very casual? When the vehicle is going fast on runway, it does give the impression like its in neutral gear or with very little throttle applied. Again, very little immersion in sounds but fairly decent work on its handling overall.

Collision seem to need more tweaks as when I hit an ATV in about 50Km/hr, the hunter tends to jump over it. Expected behaviour should be like a train meets a shopping trolley :)

Gears are also done best so far on this vehicle, however still far from ideal or authentic. Get go from stand still could be little more lively / dynamic.

Another issue is, and that applies to all vehicles, is that while turning, no power seem to be applied till the steering is straight again. (same as the reports of aircraft stalling while turning )

AMV-7 Marshall

Just great all around and my current favorite in game. The vehicle feels very heavy as it should yet the steering does what user tells it to. feels very authentic for me personally. The AMV-7 also hold its gears on inclines and use high RPM then any other vehicle and is just fun to drive around, as it feels like most finished vehicle available ingame.

Sound - could use more improvement though. It doesn't sound bad really but there is something missing. The engine doesn't sound aggressive enough? I still don't know. (more RPM :D )

Thanks for reading :)

in the 2nd video....i would have just floored it... more fun

[Bee8190 10]

in the 2nd video....i would have just floored it... more fun

I came here to pay a compliment on new ATV sound, which is really well done, as well handling, which gotten fairly better since last build although ;

Yep and I would do that too BUT..there's no such a thing as floor it down in arma (yet :rolleyes: ?). I don't mean to be anal and pick every little thing apart but I realized while we got reasonable vehicle handling and nice sounds for the most part, I honestly say here that all the terrain and vehicle interaction still leaves me very dissatisfied.

I know that most of you rather appreciate the infantry and all that gear but I can't be the only one here thinking that vehicle interaction with terrain & objects is extremely basic and compares to game from many years ago? One doesn't need to be some kind of race-sim enthusiast to be able to see how basic and similar it feels to arma 1-2.

If we look at GTA 4 or even 3, which has hardly authentic driving model, you were able to senselessly spin tires and make doughnuts, roll over, spin the vehicle at speed and wreck the vehicle in so many ways and so much more in game that is now fairly old and I ask why there hasn't been nearly no improvements whatsoever, aside of the handling?

[Bee8190 10]

Didn't have much time to test lately but quickly tested today's build and admired the progress on hunter vehicle.

I like how it no longer jumps over bumps like a paper weight and I appreciate the we're able to flip the vehicle now as well, that is welcome change plus the roll over / crash is rather authentic and I am sure even more tweaks are coming.

I also like how the suspension is visually working more than ever although its little artificial as in, the suspension works fairly hard even on flat road. That said, I think the suspension is ( completely ?) independent of the vehicle body movement, whereas it is the body that should be bouncing according to suspension travel, which is giving the user / driver the more dynamic feel while speeding abouts. :)

What I mean is that while suspension is working hard, the body doesn't seem to be connected / affected which gives the impression of suspension being too soft, like in luxury car. The issue it could raise is that the car will feel too soft, unresponsive or sluggish while driving off road or while turning and especially while braking ( weight transfer ) I however only refer to body of the vehicle as suspension travel as well it's softness appears to be quite authentic :icon_twisted:

I'd like to also point out that cars feel too sticky, even more so off road -

I do not think the issue is the steering ratio ( how quickly can wheels turn left or right ) nor it's the general handling and I am inclined to say that the tires have too much grip. Would it be possible to lower the grippy feel of the tires and make them little less responsive, as in - more slippery ( like driving in very heavy rain kind of thing ) while maintaining ( not altering ) the vehicle handling nor steering ratio?

The civilian car - I am sure there is more to it but I was wondering if the front and rear sway bar's are at same values? I feel they may be too soft ( unless the issue is deeper in physx ) and front sway bar should be about 20% stiffer than rear as the front is the ''leading'' side and requires being more responsive while the rear basically just follows the front heading.

Hope there might be some useful feedback and or ideas and thanks for reading :icon_twisted:

Edited August 14, 2013 by Bee8190

[nodunit 397]

...no seriously the post is just above, read it.

Got to agree, the hunter is definately feeling a bit more weighty and for the better, I think there is also a sound that plays when you land it too hard but I'm not sure..its so soft and subtle that I'm not sure if its a terrain sound of vehicle. Noticed that the HEMTT is also throwing its weight around which is great, makes it feel heavy and unbalanced as hell.

And while rolling is easier as higher speeds (good thing) there is still a problem that it wants to flip itself..but I don't think this is related to the hunter itself. I suspected it back in alpha but I think the wheels themselves (or perhaps to be more specific, land contact points) are the culprits of all these auto flips, they alone lead to a few oddities such as the vehicle jumping if they brush against an object just right and the vehicle doesn't want to right itself until the wheels start pushing against the ground, slowly tilting it back until the tread points contact the ground then it quickly uprights itself.

This video provides a great example of why I suspect the tires themselves.

In the first imact the vehicles trajectory SHOULD have sent it flipping over its nose, yet when the tire touches the ground it immediately rights itself. Again at 0:38 the vehicle should have skid if not rolled over, but the tire caught the ground and clung to it, keeping the vehicle upright.

Note how at 1:00 the car slams into the shelter, there is no wheel contact and so the vehicle remains on its back, and again at 1:10, the vehicle lands on its side and due to all 4 wheels behind deeper than the wheel wells themselves, there is no tread contact and so the vehicle does not right itself.

The hunter is flipped at 1:31, and skids along the ground in similar style but then uprights itself..perhaps due to the contact on the back wheels? At 1:38 I was struggling to keep the vehicle on its feet and I'm not sure if tire contact assisted me then at 1:41 (have a feeling I should have rolled) inertial forces win and the vehicle rolls over, note how inertia even causes the vehicle to tilt with the trajectory of force yet when it leans back the tires make contact and it uprights itself but the PUSH doesn't occur until the treading pushes against the ground.

This same behavior can be seen at 1:54 with the quadbike, slowly rolling on to its side until the tires contact the ground, then throws itself into upright position.

At 2:49 the strider wipes again (my favorite one) if we consider that the tire treads facing from the Z axis (that is directly down from the belly) are points that cause this flip (perhaps land contact) then we can see here how no contact is made with that particular point, the vehicle skids on its side and leans, no contact is ever made and no upright occurs.

Edited August 15, 2013 by NodUnit