Dead Zone Folks: Why not use freeaim?

[mordeaniischaos 3]

As we all know, deadzone aiming in Arma 3 is currently a pretty sad affair. Not the end of the world as I'm sure it's not the most popular feature, but I am curious about something: how do you guys feel about the Free Aim feature? For me, the deadzone was always a sort of compromise of being able to freely aim your weapon because while it does allow a bit of aiming independent of the orientation of your hips and direction of travel, it is fairly limited in the field it covers at any given time and it's simply not realistic. You don't wave a weapon around inside of a stationary view in real life, you simply twist your trunk and shoulders and manipulate the firearm with your arms to achieve that freedom of aim that is semi-independent of the orientation of your lower body.

I've just put up a ticket for improving this free aim mode by suggesting it be usable any time the weapon is up and shouldered in a high ready carry as well as when aiming down the sights, and increasing the field of movement of this feature somewhat in one direction and greatly in the other based on the shoulder your weapon is in. So I'm curious, with a fully implemented feature like this, which is more realistic for how weapons should be handled, insures even awareness to either side of your weapon, and allows for you to maintain that predictable and constant input of non-deadzone aiming, would you switch from deadzone aiming, or is there something in particular about deadzone aiming that attracts you? I imagine part of it is the ability to use it when you aren't aiming down the sights, but this also causes issues when it's inconsistent when you don't even have the weapon up or are moving around.

I'm really asking more out of curiosity than anything, and because I would love to see more people who make use of things like deadzone or free aiming to handle their weapons (as opposed to how locked view aiming works now, which is more of a body handling profile than a weapon handling profile).

What's everyone's favorite weapon handling profile and why? Is there any way that any of them could be improved to edge out your current favorite?

A video demonstrating what I mean about free aim and how I think it should work. You should be able to get the gist of it in the first 3 minutes but feel free to watch more if you're interested.

Edited June 20, 2013 by MordeaniisChaos

[EDcase 87]

Could you explain a bit more how you see this free aim working and how its different from Aiming Deadzone?

The main problem is having the freedom (and realism) of separate torso animation but also having the control to turn the whole body without running out of desk space.

I used the Deadzone in ARMA2 where it worked better but I never had it at max. It was about 1/4 so that I could aim at more distant targets without the whole view changing. (That made fps better too)

I don't think you can have more rotation freedom than maximum Deadzone because if you fired a weapon twisted like that you would fall over.

Edited June 20, 2013 by EDcase

[mordeaniischaos 3]

Could you explain a bit more how you see this free aim working and how its different from Aiming Deadzone?

The main problem is having the freedom (and realism) of separate torso animation but also having the control to turn the whole body without running out of desk space.

I used the Deadzone in ARMA2 where it worked better but I never had it at max. It was about 1/4 so that I could aim at more distant targets without the whole view changing. (That made fps better too)

I don't think you can have more rotation freedom than maximum Deadzone because if you fired a weapon twisted like that you would fall over.

I'll just add the video I did to demonstrate what I mean to the original post, so other's can see what I mean.

As for having the freedom to rotate, you ve to understand that the way the weapon is handled in deadzone is completely unrealistic. You're supposed to twist at your core, not move the weapon around on it's own. In fact, a stable shooting position is not one where you are pointing the rifle in the direction your legs are oriented. You usually have a natural stance of aiming somewhat to your left/right depending on your dominant hand/shoulder that your rifle is in. Most people when firing a rifle do not adjust their body to adjust a shot unless they are going from one flank to another and making very large adjustments or attempting to make precision shots.

I'd never thought of the advantage of making small adjustments for distant shots without moving the view, that actually would be useful (and realistic!).

[EDcase 87]

Ah, I see the difference with Deadzone and what you mean about having the weapon move away from your centre sight picture. (Thats why I never used it at max)

But what you describe wouldn't feel much different in 1st person??? (without Deadzone)

You can bring up the optics and move around in all directions. How would that be different being able to rotate your body separately?

Essentially the problem is controlling 2 things with one mouse. Weapon direction and body direction

Edited June 20, 2013 by EDcase

[Sneakson 1]

What’s the current issue with deadzone aiming? I’ve tried it. Didn’t notice anything wrong with it.

[EDcase 87]

What’s the current issue with deadzone aiming? I’ve tried it. Didn’t notice anything wrong with it.

Make it maximum to get the full effect. (Note: I dont know many people who use it at max)

When you move the mouse your weapon moves very fast

Then try and turn your body....

....really slooooow

Example. (I am moving the mouse the same speed on my desk all the time)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYK8pBr2IN0

Thats it really. Its just a case of changing the mouse sensitivity lower in the deadzone and higher outside so they are more even.

Edited June 20, 2013 by EDcase

[mordeaniischaos 3]

Ah, I see the difference with Deadzone and what you mean about having the weapon move away from your centre sight picture. (Thats why I never used it at max)

But what you describe wouldn't feel much different in 1st person??? (without Deadzone)

You can bring up the optics and move around in all directions. How would that be different being able to rotate your body separately?

Essentially the problem is controlling 2 things with one mouse. Weapon direction and body direction

For one, deadzone cannot go beyond your field of view looking forward. In reality, you have far more flexibility in which way you are looking.

For another, keeping your optics in the center of your screen is A) better for situational awareness because you see what is to either side of the target you are engaging or observing or what have you and B) simply more realistic. Even when scanning for targets and not actively engaging with a sight picture, you should keep your weapon pointed where you are looking. Having your gun on the side of your screen is a bad idea because you have no idea what might suddenly run in front of it as you're firing, for example. And if you're moving in that general direction, you have far worse awareness of what might be coming up as you move, which is also problematic.

[Sneakson 1]

Make it maximum to get the full effect.

When you move the mouse your weapon moves very fast

Then try and turn your body....

....really slooooow

Example. (I am moving the mouse the same speed on my desk all the time)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYK8pBr2IN0

Thats it really. Its just a case of changing the mouse sensitivity lower in the deadzone and higher outside so they are more even.

Oh man. That's a lot.

[EDcase 87]

For one, deadzone cannot go beyond your field of view looking forward. In reality, you have far more flexibility in which way you are looking.

For another, keeping your optics in the center of your screen is A) better for situational awareness because you see what is to either side of the target you are engaging or observing or what have you and B) simply more realistic. Even when scanning for targets and not actively engaging with a sight picture, you should keep your weapon pointed where you are looking. Having your gun on the side of your screen is a bad idea because you have no idea what might suddenly run in front of it as you're firing, for example. And if you're moving in that general direction, you have far worse awareness of what might be coming up as you move, which is also problematic.

Yep, I see what you mean there.

BUT that will be VERY hard to control because you won't know where your front is. You will see the normal optics picture and look around but you won't know which direction you will go when you press 'W' In real life you can feel the twist and know where your legs are pointing but not in the game. Imagine you are turned to the left and suddenly your are under fire. You will have a nightmare trying to run for cover as you have to find out what direction forward is. Then also how do you turn if your torso moves separately?

The good thing about Deadzone is that it gets away from the 'gun stuck to head' of all other fps games. It allows you to do CQB much more realistically. (On max is too much I agree) But in reality you can move the weapon independently a bit.

What about...

How about as you move the weapon around with your upper torso and arms (like Deadzone but weapon stays more centred), after a short delay your hips/legs turn to match the angle so that you would end up facing the same direction as the weapon?

Its hard to explain and visualize :(

It would also help with the question of inertia and turning speed in the other thread because you would be turning your torso as you move the mouse and your hips/legs would follow after a moment. Perhaps the speed of turing would control how fast your legs follow the movement.

Edited June 20, 2013 by EDcase

[sqb-sma 66]

I don't use free aim because if I turn it on slightly then my ENTIRE VIEW lurches up to 90 degrees and then back down, like a ship on a heavy ocean swell. Obviously that's not playable.

Disable trackIR and it works "as per advertised", which I still hate because you can't turn your body at all as seen in the above video.

Edited June 22, 2013 by SQB-SMA
Wrote the wrong thing XD

[EDcase 87]

I don't use mouse acceleration because if I turn it on slightly then my ENTIRE VIEW lurches up to 90 degrees and then back down..

Thats a separate problem of Deadzone that it doesn't work with TrackIR VOTE:http://feedback.arma3.com/view.php?id=116

As I said, the problem with Aim Deadzone at the moment is mouse sensitivity in and out of the deadzone are VERY different.

I made a small animation to demonstrate my idea described above

[Minoza 11]

^^Looks interesting. :)

[skatardude10 1]

I found a youtube video that can make deadzone just like your video EDcase. Just bind turn left and turn right to mouse left and mouse right so when you turn your gun moves but you also slightly turn your body a bit too. It also fixes the sluggishness of the edge of deadzone... but it would be nice for deadzone to be fixed regardless ... AND work with trackIR!

[The Hebrew Hammer 10]

Changing character movement to be more FPS like was a concession that had to be made, Arma 2's gunplay was fine when engaging enemies in excess of 100 meters, but damn near useless when trying to clear our buildings or compounds. In my opinion it is for the better, I was never big on using the free-look key when my weapon's sights were up, the act of orienting your weapon one way while moving another is an easy task in real life because there is no thought put into it. In Arma 2, I could move forward using the W key, and look down the sights in another direction using free-look. HOWEVER makes the player lose the ability to use the mouse to make minor corrections in direction of travel, which is something you do automatically in reality.

[sqb-sma 66]

Hmmm, very good animation. So the players movement vector "seeks" the aim vector with acceleration based on the difference. I like it way more than the default model, but I'm still not sure if I'd use it.

Currently the movement controls are "absolute", wasd ALWAYS means forwards, left etc etc from the viewing direction, making movement (theoretically, in practice rifle collision, player collision and slight amounts of lag disrupt this) absolute. You can still aim off center, just by using W+D and looking to the left, it achieves a similar thing to your idea, whilst still keeping movement absolute.

[mordeaniischaos 3]

Yep, I see what you mean there.

BUT that will be VERY hard to control because you won't know where your front is. You will see the normal optics picture and look around but you won't know which direction you will go when you press 'W' In real life you can feel the twist and know where your legs are pointing but not in the game. Imagine you are turned to the left and suddenly your are under fire. You will have a nightmare trying to run for cover as you have to find out what direction forward is. Then also how do you turn if your torso moves separately?

The good thing about Deadzone is that it gets away from the 'gun stuck to head' of all other fps games. It allows you to do CQB much more realistically. (On max is too much I agree) But in reality you can move the weapon independently a bit.

What about...

How about as you move the weapon around with your upper torso and arms (like Deadzone but weapon stays more centred), after a short delay your hips/legs turn to match the angle so that you would end up facing the same direction as the weapon?

Its hard to explain and visualize :(

It would also help with the question of inertia and turning speed in the other thread because you would be turning your torso as you move the mouse and your hips/legs would follow after a moment. Perhaps the speed of turing would control how fast your legs follow the movement.

That nice thing about freeaim is that it's a toggle. It's not always on. If you get confused about what direction you should be moving, you hit your bind and you're looking straight forward again. As for turning, maybe your keys fro strafing would turn into keys for turning, as strafing probably wouldn't be as important in the freeaim mode.I also disagree that deadzone is good for cqc, because you can't engage targets flanking you nearly as easily. In my opinion Deadzone does very little other than give the illusion of realism. Nothing wrong with playing with it, but I think calling it realistic is pretty far from the truth. It gets a bit of the functionality, but again the idea of moving your weapon around like that is a bit silly to me.

The other issue with deadzone is that it's always on, which is pretty jarring in certain situations.

[EDcase 87]

I found a youtube video that can make deadzone just like your video EDcase. Just bind turn left and turn right to mouse left and mouse right so when you turn your gun moves but you also slightly turn your body a bit too...

Yeah, I actually saw that and tried it but it doesn't work well. Slow turning is not usable.

MordeaniisChaos: I can't really imagine how it would work but sounds interesting

Edited June 23, 2013 by EDcase