Abortion and the death penalty

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,14:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,20:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 25 2002,12<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,18:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Zygotes dont think either.  Zygote is the egg after its been fertilized.<span id='postcolor'>

You are right, but we with brains agree that the union of sperm and egg does not become alive for a considerable amount of time after conception.<span id='postcolor'>

I just went back and re-read the topic and found I'd missed this.

So are you implying that the medical professionals (of which I'm guessing you are not) who have stated that life begins at conception don't have brains?

Not trying to be a dick, I'm just asking...<span id='postcolor'>

Those people are in tiny minorites within the medical/scientific communities.<span id='postcolor'>

In England perhaps. But they are NOT a minority over here. I'm not saying they're a vast majority here, because I don't have exact figures and I'm not going to throw an unsubstantiated figure out there. But every doctor I've talked to, whether they're OBGYN, or psychiatry, or podiatry, or general practice, agree that life begins at conception.

Here are some quotes I've found from various medical professionals:

"When the sperm and egg fuse, the newly-formed cell has conferred upon it the degree of Homo Sapiens, with all the rights and privileges pertaining." (Note, "Rights and Privileges.") Peter Amenta, Ph.D. Professor of Embryology, Hahnemann Medical School.

"I have learned from my earliest medical education that human life begins at conception. I submit that human life is present throughout this entire sequence, from conception to adulthood, and any interruption at any point throughout this time constitutes the termination of a human life." Dr. A.M. Bongioanni, professor of obstetrics, University of Pennsylvania.

"After fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into existence. This is no longer a matter of taste or opinion. Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception." Dr. Jerome Lejeune, genetics professor at the University of Descartes, Paris. He discovered the Down syndrome chromosome, which my brother has.

"It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception." Professor M. Matthews-Roth, Harvard University Medical School.

"By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." Professor Hymie Gordon, Mayo Clinic.

There is also this article to check out: http://www.mdn.org/1995/STORIES/ABORCASE.HTM

This article talks about the 1995 ruling by the Missouri State Supreme Court that life does begin at conception.

This is something I found on www.prolifeinfo.org. Sorry, but some of these quotes are repeats:

In 1981 (April 23-24) a Senate Judiciary Subcommittee held hearings on the very question before us here: When does human life begin? Appearing to speak on behalf of the scientific community was a group of internationally-known geneticists and biologists who had the same story to tell, namely, that human life begins at conception - and they told their story with a profound absence of opposing testimony.

Dr. Micheline M. Mathews-Roth, Harvard medical School, gave confirming testimony, supported by references from over 20 embryology and other medical textbooks that human life began at conception.

* "Father of Modern Genetics" Dr. Jerome Lejeune told the lawmakers: "To accept the fact that after fertilization has taken place a new human has come into being is no longer a matter of taste or opinion ... it is plain experimental evidence."

* Dr. Hymie Gordon, Chairman, Department of Genetics at the Mayo Clinic, added: "By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception."

* Dr. McCarthy de Mere, medical doctor and law professor, University of Tennessee, testified: "The exact moment of the beginning of personhood and of the human body is at the moment of conception."

* Dr. Alfred Bongiovanni, University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine, concluded, "I am no more prepared to say that these early stages represent an incomplete human being than I would be to say that the child prior to the dramatic effects of puberty ... is not a human being."

* Dr. Richard V. Jaynes: "To say that the beginning of human life cannot be determined scientifically is utterly ridiculous."

* Dr. Landrum Shettles, sometimes called the "Father of In Vitro Fertilization" notes, "Conception confers life and makes that life one of a kind." And on the Supreme Court ruling _Roe v. Wade_, "To deny a truth [about when life begins] should not be made a basis for legalizing abortion."

At this point, I'm gathering some more sources for you. I'll post them when I have them.

Turk

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,14:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,13:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (residuum @ July 25 2002,11<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sam Samson @ July 25 2002,12<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll chip my two cents worth in.

a human starts at conception. to kill it is wrong.

the death penalty is something very serious. God installed it, yes, (hey, won't we all die?), but please, put somebody's light out only if there are more than one credible witness to the misdeed. if the evidence is circumstancial, a life sentence will do. death is the only punishment you can't reverse.

so, treat lightly, guys. and no lynching. (even Cain was not to be lynched.)

about Jesus: I really believe he was God in the flesh and that I'll meet him one of these days.

about his death: it happened as it was prophecied.

just read Isaiah 53. It describes precisely what Jesus went through, 700 years before the fact.

or, my favorite: Psalms 22, 17-22:

it talks about the crucifixion (...they have pierced my hands and my feet...) and the gambling over his clothes a solid 1000 years before it happened. (compare with Matthew's gospel 27, 35.)

God is real, guys.<span id='postcolor'>

Oh no not again...<span id='postcolor'>

Oh, so you can post your point of view, but people who believe in God can't?  Sorry, I didn't know it was that kind of debate...<span id='postcolor'>

I love how you put words in my mouth, you are truley a great debater.

Last time I checked this was a discussion on "abortion and the death penalty" not the existance of god.  We've already had 2 of those.<span id='postcolor'>

I didn't put words in your mouth. I just didn't appreciate how you made it seem that the opinion of people who have a religious base for their beliefs isn't as valid as those who don't. For many of us, you can't debate abortion or the death penalty without involving God.

Sorry if you think we're beating a dead horse.

[Renagade 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (LauryThorn @ July 25 2002,09:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> muderers and rapists deserve death.<span id='postcolor'>

I agree with that, but I also think that no man has a right to

kill other man, so I'm against death penalty.<span id='postcolor'>

I dont,it triviliases murder by putting it on the same level as rape and may also increase murders becuase if a person rapes another knowing they`ll face the death sentence then whats to stop them from just killing them afterwards.I would say serious assualt is worse like if a person was attacked by a group of thugs and beaten over a period of time because not only have u the psychological damage but also physical damage too

Rape is a terrible crime and there should be more done to help victims in court yet at the same time stop the ppl who make false accusations.

Like i said before the world isnt a black and white.

[Renagade 0]

On the abortion issue its not if or or not its considered a human but the effect the consequences of it.

If ppl are so willing for a death penalty on ppl why are they so against abortion when it could solve problems too

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ July 25 2002,14:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hi, this may've moved on but i thought i'd give my opinion on these things:

Abortion - this shouldn't be frowned upon, yes, people may think it's murder, but i'm pretty sure if these god squad people were living in shitty houses with no money and stuff, they'd want an abortion if they couldn't support it. Its a choice between two 'deaths' for the baby - Dying in his mothers womb (although wether its ''living'' in this state is debatable), or dying in poverty with drugs lying about the place with no food, clothing and parents who wanted to get rid of him/her, but couldn't because some religious humanitarians have to invade and control everyone elses lives for them simply because their false gods don't believe in abortion. Some people don't understand that babies can ruin peoples lives, they just say ''who cares if you have to support 15 kids by working in a sweatshop where you're raped and beaten everyday, you had... sex... without protection!! you're going straight to hell, this is your punishment before then''. Of course, they don't give a shit about the baby, they don't care they'll have to live in squaler, all they care about is the person having the baby. Maybe they can then ruin their lives furthur afterwards by nicking off with their babies because they can't be supported, and then they shove them in a nunery so they can be assimilated into their religion so they can exploit a few more people for money and needless worship.

Death Penalty - It isn't really a punishment, i'd rather have serial killer types spend the rest of their lives in a shitty prison with a 9 foot tall homo called bubba. Thats punishment, simply killing them is the easy way out really, they won't reform, they'll happily go out and slaughter people, but why kill them? let them suffer the unpleasantness of a dark, horrible prison cell, the company of 20 hardcore inmqates who hate serial killers, and of course regular unofficial beatings from the guards.<span id='postcolor'>

Ruud,

I could kind of see your point of view if that were the case in every abortion issue, but it isn't. That's great that you sympathize with the women who are unfortunate enough to always hook up with deadbeat sleaze-ball men, but it gets to the point where you have to say, "Okay, now you have 4 kids that you don't want from 4 guys that you haven't seen since. Haven't you learned anything?"

You cannot take blame from the mother, and that is regardless of where she lives. You talk about the moms that work in sweatshops to support their 15 kids while living in a crack neighborhood with pimps and drunks and druggies. But in many cases, in this country at least, the mom doesn't work to support her family. She and/or the dad just sit at home and collect welfare. And you know who pays for that? Tax paying citizens like me. And when that starts to happen, I start to lose sympathy.

I work my ass off for my wife and my two kids, and I don't get paid a whole lot. We live by the penny, and money is always tight. My wife even works a part time job to help out. So what I don't get is this...in America, why do I have to work my ass off to provide for my family (which I do with the utmost amount of joy), AND provide for the 15 children of some woman who is too careless to keep her legs shut?

When you start a sexual relationship with someone, you'd better be prepared that you could get pregnant. It's like playing with a loaded gun and being surprised when you shoot yourself in the foot. When you have sex, it's safe to assume that you know that you could get pregnant, whether you're aware of it or not. I mean, it's not like it's a big secret that that's how babies are made.

And as far as your comment about dying in the mother's womb or in poverty on the streets, at least the kid has a chance in the streets. If you abort the baby, you're not even giving it a chance. How right is that?

[KingBeast 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,21:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And as far as your comment about dying in the mother's womb or in poverty on the streets, at least the kid has a chance in the streets.  If you abort the baby, you're not even giving it a chance.  How right is that?<span id='postcolor'>

I cant remember what your stance was on the death penalty but ill chuck this in anyway. You say having an abortion isnt giving the baby a chance, correct? Or at least in so many words.

Well how about sentencing people to death prevents them from having a second chance. Everyone deserves a second chance right?

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ July 25 2002,14:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We live in the 21th Century, not in the 17th.

The bible is old, its too old for the civilisation now. It have been once before, but then it was updated, now we shall live by the rules of our community, our laws. The bible have teached us alot, but it cannot be lived by, and it is no more than wisdom written into a book to help people live their lives and remain law and order in a community. It created what was the first real civilisation, but it is outdated... and its been that for long now.

Now we dont need any book or any religion to live by. We need to believe in ourselves, we are indivisuals with our own rights, and we can succeed, the book and priests are replaced by parents, school and its teachers, It is replaced by the persons we live amongs. Religion is over, we have our own religion and its what our ancestors have been fought for when all their money were taked from the priests a long time ago.

This doesnt only apply to Christianity, it applies to all religions, believe in yourself, not a god. God isnt their, we are our own master, we dont have to live under pressure or sacrifice our valuest. Most wars are caused by religion nowadays, it may seem right, but it isnt. If we dont stop believing we never will, dont u see it??!

Some "believers" are looking down to people with other or none believers, non believers are looking down to believers. Believeing in minorities is the cause of hate, and hate isnt to be justified in any cause. We saw this happen when Adolf Hitler looked down to Jews and other minorities. It is cruelness and coldness, we saw it when Ali and his friends flew into the twin towers, cruel. This is caused by religion. It might or might not be your religion, but it is still the cause of it. There is no god, no controller, no ruler except ourself. If we do not stop believing this we will stop functioning in a short period of time.

/Edit (somehow it erased the last part of my post)

The world is getting smaller for each day, and we need to find alternatives to produce food, and find shelter for the growing population. Our technology is incriesing as well, but religion will put an end to this. We need to support what our ethics are, not the religion we think exists. Mother Earth is also developping, and its fruits are getting more and more evolved, but it is doing it too slow for us. We are simply to fast for the earth, and we either have to slow down, or take it into our own hands. This means birthcontroll or genetherapy. Many religions are against this.... And they are against birth controll as well.... Religion will be the cause of our death... And this is only 1 example of it.

Religion was once, and it has passed. It was good to bring people together and live in peace, but it is over, the world is too small and its people are too large and developped.

Im not taking any statement in gene therapy or birthcontrol here, but it is depressing to see people being somehow brainwashed that they limit their own freedom which is exactly what our civilisation is based upon the day today. Welive now, not 400 years ago. LIVE!<span id='postcolor'>

The Bible has been the same since it was written. It is a historically accurate book and contains lessons and life applications which shed much light on the issues of today.

I have to go home soon, where I will give you a more full reply. But for now, I leave you with one point. The current war on terrorism is no doubt fueled by religion. The Israeli conflict going on now is about religion. You can say what you want about what's going on or what caused it, but it's about religion, and it goes back thousands of years.

But let's look at some of the major wars of the past while:

Desert Storm: It was about oil. Let's not kid ourselves. Yes, we helped Kuwait, but it was ultimately about oil.

Afghanistan War (soviet invasion): Not sure...

Iran/Iraq War: probably about religion, but they're the same religion...

Vietnam: Stopping the spread of communism into South Vietnam.

Korea: Stopping the spread of communism into South Korea

WW2: Stopping Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan from global domination

WW1: Stopping Imperial Germany and Austria-Hungary from taking over Europe

Bolsheviek (sp?) Revolution: Starting communism in Russia

Russo-Japanese War: Not sure, I think it was over Eastern Russia, Mongolia, etc.

Boxer Rebellion: China wanted Brits out of China.

These are just a few. But you will note that most of these are not religion-based conflicts.

Like I said, I will comment on this more fully when I get home.

But one last thing: Espectro, I'm sorry if Christians, with whom I align myself, have given you reason to not believe in God. That's unfortunate, and it saddens me everytime I hear of something like that happening. I'll try really hard not to sound condescending when we discuss things. Fair 'nuff?

Turk

[KingBeast 0]

I dont really think that in modern times at least, Religion plays all that big a part in warfare. Its more in the quite distant past that Religion was the main reason to go to war for. Im sure there was no nobler thing to do than to go to war for the Church.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

All wars that have been fought are based on our demands and our beliefs. Our demands are formed by the politician status in the current society, and that status has indeed its roots in religion.

As far as being a non-belief. Im not a non-believer, but I dont believe in any god which created us, nor do i believe in any form of lifeform that has the power to punish us or gift us due to our actiuons. I believe that we all have our own free will, and the rules are made by the society... FOR the society.

Belief in a leader, hieraki in a world, is in some sort of form also a religion. Not all of it, but some of it. In some 3rd world countries, the religion is so hardprinted and cooperated into the country structure and rulers that it is hard to see the difference and the line.... IF there is a clear line. It is hard to debate weather or not a war is based on religion, since there can be sat up many pros and cons to it. To any war whatsoever. That is why I wont go into the wars you have mentioned since that would be a waste of mine and your time, and we would just keep debating such a, for me, useless point, in such a important message.

[Turkish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ July 25 2002,16:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,21:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And as far as your comment about dying in the mother's womb or in poverty on the streets, at least the kid has a chance in the streets.  If you abort the baby, you're not even giving it a chance.  How right is that?<span id='postcolor'>

I cant remember what your stance was on the death penalty but ill chuck this in anyway. You say having an abortion isnt giving the baby a chance, correct? Or at least in so many words.

Well how about sentencing people to death prevents them from having a second chance. Everyone deserves a second chance right?<span id='postcolor'>

I am pro-DP.

You have to remember...in America at least, you don't get the DP for having too many DUIs or for embezzling millions of dollars from your Fortune 500 company. The people on Death Row (the guilty ones ) are there for serious offenses, usually murder. But they don't send one guy to the chair for one murder, and if they do, there's a good reason for their decision.

Heck, Timothy McVeigh was there for killing 168 people, many of them children, at the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City. Do you think he should get a second chance?

The families that lost loved ones to the murderers...do they get a second chance? No. So why should murderers get a second chance? I'm not saying every murderer deserves the chair, but the murderers who are waiting on Death Row are there because they have been deemed "unworthy of a second chance" by the authorities.

I'm going to bring in a little religion here, so sorry if you don't like it. God is a God if second chances. He forgives. The Bible says that when God forgives you, he puts your sin as far away as the east is from the west. He completely forgets what you've done. But that doesn't mean that you are free from the consequences of your actions. And it's unfortunate if you murder someone in a state that has the death penalty, but you shouldn't murder in the first place. That may sound contrived, but it's actually pretty simple.

And as far as second chances go, abortion kills a baby who has no choice. It's different than a convict, who is in prison because of a conscious choice they made. It's not like someone made them murder. Everyone has a choice, except in the case of infants and kids (little ones). You can choose to pull the trigger or not to pull. You can choose to rape a girl or not to rape her. You can choose whether you want to commit suicide or not to do so. But unborn babies are not afforded that choice. Therein lies the wrong in it.

You see what I'm saying?

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Espectro @ July 25 2002,21:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">We live in the 21th Century, not in the 17th.

The bible is old, its too old for the civilisation now. It have been once before, but then it was updated, now we shall live by the rules of our community, our laws. The bible have teached us alot, but it cannot be lived by, and it is no more than wisdom written into a book to help people live their lives and remain law and order in a community. It created what was the first real civilisation, but it is outdated... and its been that for long now.

Now we dont need any book or any religion to live by. We need to believe in ourselves, we are indivisuals with our own rights, and we can succeed, the book and priests are replaced by parents, school and its teachers, It is replaced by the persons we live amongs. Religion is over, we have our own religion and its what our ancestors have been fought for when all their money were taked from the priests a long time ago.

This doesnt only apply to Christianity, it applies to all religions, believe in yourself, not a god. God isnt their, we are our own master, we dont have to live under pressure or sacrifice our valuest. Most wars are caused by religion nowadays, it may seem right, but it isnt. If we dont stop believing we never will, dont u see it??!

Some "believers" are looking down to people with other or none believers, non believers are looking down to believers. Believeing in minorities is the cause of hate, and hate isnt to be justified in any cause. We saw this happen when Adolf Hitler looked down to Jews and other minorities. It is cruelness and coldness, we saw it when Ali and his friends flew into the twin towers, cruel. This is caused by religion. It might or might not be your religion, but it is still the cause of it. There is no god, no controller, no ruler except ourself. If we do not stop believing this we will stop functioning in a short period of time.

/Edit (somehow it erased the last part of my post)

The world is getting smaller for each day, and we need to find alternatives to produce food, and find shelter for the growing population. Our technology is incriesing as well, but religion will put an end to this. We need to support what our ethics are, not the religion we think exists. Mother Earth is also developping, and its fruits are getting more and more evolved, but it is doing it too slow for us. We are simply to fast for the earth, and we either have to slow down, or take it into our own hands. This means birthcontroll or genetherapy. Many religions are against this.... And they are against birth controll as well.... Religion will be the cause of our death... And this is only 1 example of it.

Religion was once, and it has passed. It was good to bring people together and live in peace, but it is over, the world is too small and its people are too large and developped.

Im not taking any statement in gene therapy or birthcontrol here, but it is depressing to see people being somehow brainwashed that they limit their own freedom which is exactly what our civilisation is based upon the day today. Welive now, not 400 years ago. LIVE!<span id='postcolor'>

Words that could only have come from someone who has no understanding of Christianity whatsoever. Of course the Bible (the teaching of Christ) can be lived by, you'd just rather not.

[KingBeast 0]

Okay Turk you are right in the respect that aborting a child doesnt give them a first chance, let alone a second chance in comparison to say a murderer or rapist.

Is a foetus even aware of its existence? Probably as aware of its existance as a sperm cell is ill bet. And hey, sperms are life as much as you might disagree. They have little wiggly tails and they swim, so they cant be dead!

I think what it comes down to is sentience. And is a 2 week old growth inside a woman actually sentient? Im not sure on that so maybe someone can clear it up for me. Back to the death penalty however...

The Death Penalty clearly does not deter people from murdering, what is its purpose? Hey I know! Instead of one person dying, lets kill another because thats right and good. There really is no reason for the death penalty, no justification at all.

Sure if either of us were family of a murder/rape victim, we would want the culprit to die. Painfully probably. But we arent allowed to kill them ourselves because that would be wrong. So it is right to let the government kill them?

As I say, the Death Penalty plain does not work. Look at the amount of murders in the US, and then compare it to the amount in the UK for instance. Or most other countries that do not have the death penalty.

[Ruud van Nistelrooy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Turkish @ July 25 2002,22:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Ruud van Nistelrooy @ July 25 2002,14:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hi, this may've moved on but i thought i'd give my opinion on these things:

Abortion - this shouldn't be frowned upon, yes, people may think it's murder, but i'm pretty sure if these god squad people were living in shitty houses with no money and stuff, they'd want an abortion if they couldn't support it. Its a choice between two 'deaths' for the baby - Dying in his mothers womb (although wether its ''living'' in this state is debatable), or dying in poverty with drugs lying about the place with no food, clothing and parents who wanted to get rid of him/her, but couldn't because some religious humanitarians have to invade and control everyone elses lives for them simply because their false gods don't believe in abortion. Some people don't understand that babies can ruin peoples lives, they just say ''who cares if you have to support 15 kids by working in a sweatshop where you're raped and beaten everyday, you had... sex... without protection!! you're going straight to hell, this is your punishment before then''. Of course, they don't give a shit about the baby, they don't care they'll have to live in squaler, all they care about is the person having the baby. Maybe they can then ruin their lives furthur afterwards by nicking off with their babies because they can't be supported, and then they shove them in a nunery so they can be assimilated into their religion so they can exploit a few more people for money and needless worship.

Death Penalty - It isn't really a punishment, i'd rather have serial killer types spend the rest of their lives in a shitty prison with a 9 foot tall homo called bubba. Thats punishment, simply killing them is the easy way out really, they won't reform, they'll happily go out and slaughter people, but why kill them? let them suffer the unpleasantness of a dark, horrible prison cell, the company of 20 hardcore inmqates who hate serial killers, and of course regular unofficial beatings from the guards.<span id='postcolor'>

Ruud,

I could kind of see your point of view if that were the case in every abortion issue, but it isn't.  That's great that you sympathize with the women who are unfortunate enough to always hook up with deadbeat sleaze-ball men, but it gets to the point where you have to say, "Okay, now you have 4 kids that you don't want from 4 guys that you haven't seen since.  Haven't you learned anything?"

You cannot take blame from the mother, and that is regardless of where she lives.  You talk about the moms that work in sweatshops to support their 15 kids while living in a crack neighborhood with pimps and drunks and druggies.  But in many cases, in this country at least, the mom doesn't work to support her family.  She and/or the dad just sit at home and collect welfare.  And you know who pays for that?  Tax paying citizens like me.  And when that starts to happen, I start to lose sympathy.  

I work my ass off for my wife and my two kids, and I don't get paid a whole lot.  We live by the penny, and money is always tight.  My wife even works a part time job to help out.  So what I don't get is this...in America, why do I have to work my ass off to provide for my family (which I do with the utmost amount of joy), AND provide for the 15 children of some woman who is too careless to keep her legs shut?

When you start a sexual relationship with someone, you'd better be prepared that you could get pregnant.  It's like playing with a loaded gun and being surprised when you shoot yourself in the foot.  When you have sex, it's safe to assume that you know that you could get pregnant, whether you're aware of it or not.  I mean, it's not like it's a big secret that that's how babies are made.

And as far as your comment about dying in the mother's womb or in poverty on the streets, at least the kid has a chance in the streets.  If you abort the baby, you're not even giving it a chance.  How right is that?<span id='postcolor'>

I never said that some people should be prevented from having abortions, indeed rich sluts who have abortions every week should just be spat on and live with it, but abortion in general should be an option for some people provided they have a case for the abortion. They should look at incomes and situations, a single mother who is jobless and can't support the baby - yes, that should be paid for, but the money grabbing slut who just gets pregnant for welfare/fathers money should have to pay for her own.

I was saying that abortion shouldn't be abolished, i agree there should be certain restrictions on abortions, but the whole ''Abortion is Murder and every time someone gets an abortion god starts crying'' kind of thing is stupid. Abortion should be an option and shouldn't be forwned upon or stopped because of religion.

If you abort the baby, you are giving it a painless death (probably), if you have the baby it may grow up in a very unhealthy environment. I don't believe life begins with conception, once the baby is born is when its life starts.

One more point - if a mother can't abort her baby legally due to typical religious bollox, then more often than not she will abort the baby herself - by shoving nasty stuff up her minge. Which is preferable? The baby will probably feel more pain having a shovel plowed into his fragile head than having the injection, whats more the women will be damaged for life and may even die. Legal abortion isn't exactly murder depending on how you look it. Making abortion illegal can result in much more death and sadness.

[Ruud van Nistelrooy 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ July 25 2002,23:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont really think that in modern times at least, Religion plays all that big a part in warfare. Its more in the quite distant past that Religion was the main reason to go to war for. Im sure there was no nobler thing to do than to go to war for the Church.<span id='postcolor'>

In modern day religion is changed and modifyed to persuade people to either:

a) Give loads of money to religious figure x

b) Make people blow themselves up in order to kill other people

c) Draw more people to religion for expansion on point a)

Wars are usually just hatred or a neccessity, religion is often one of the reasons for war. Not always though, but religion always pokes its head in somewhere for the exploitation of pain and suffering (Like exploiting all the stolen valuables from the jews during WW2).

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ July 25 2002,23:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont really think that in modern times at least, Religion plays all that big a part in warfare. Its more in the quite distant past that Religion was the main reason to go to war for. Im sure there was no nobler thing to do than to go to war for the Church.<span id='postcolor'>

This guy is reading my mind! Always! and I hate him for that due to the fact that I love playing the devils advocat! So please change your mind now and then so I can post too what I think instead of doubleposting!

[Warin 0]

The bible is a 2000 year old instruction manual on how to live your life. My essential problem is that people generally only use the bits of the bible they want to believe in, and discard the rest.

Like the bits that say it's ok to keep slaves, or the bits that says that conducting business on the sabbath is a stoning offense.

And then you have Augustine forming almost entirely the basis of the christian church's uptight and prudish opinions of human sexuality. For instance (and I can see the hackles rising on the christians backs already) there is no single prohibnition anywhere against pre-marital sex, or injunctions that sex is for procreation only. The closest is an admonition agains fornication, found in Ephesians. And I defy anyone to say that consensual sex between two unmarried people qualifies, but if a husband takes his wife against her will, I would fully call that fornication.

I also have a HUGE problem with Paul. He was a Johnny-come-lately who (imho) twisted the Christian church into a cult of personality. Yes, this is my opinion... but hey, I'm allowed to have it

I am not saying that Christianity is, in and of itself bad. I am just saying that blind obedience to small parts of a book, while ignoring the rest, is wrong.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I respect the bible no doubt, but still I grew up in jesuit schools and therefore I got confronted with all criticism and praise of the bible. One should never forget that the bible once was a book of law. Kings did not have the power to oversee their whole empire and therefore god as being an invisible force, would judge you after you died, that was a welcome addition to their executive body. There might not have been a soldier around while you stole a sheep or comitted a crime, but in their beliefs god was aware of it. But the bible has no reference about time and times change. If we consider the time-context that the bible was written in we all have to admit that a lot has changed since then. Translating the law of the bible into a modern context would show us that we are actually already far ahead of its rules (to a certain degree). But since the bible has never been "updated" we should be allowed to translate it into modern times. Abortion is only a tiny share of the injustice of our days, but there are enough of abstracts of the bible that could justify it. Give me time till tomorrow morning and I will find them for you!

[cybrid 0]

Abortion- go for it, this world is overcrowded with human//animals as it is. I see no objection to destroying a cluster of cells living in a sac of goo.

Capitol punishment- Also good, It takes the human garbage off the streets and is far cheaper than putting them in for life. Hovever current methods and ineffiecient and we should have hangings and firing squads. I don't have the patients to give a second chance to every low life sad excuse for a human piece of shit, waste of resorces...etc.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

As mad as it sounds but scientists have aproved the fact that this planet can support far more population than there is right now.

[KingBeast 0]

However Monsieur Schweizer, I do not think the planet will take kindly to the increase in pollution that inevitably comes with the increase in population.

[cybrid 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Albert Schweizer Posted on July 25 2002,19:42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As mad as it sounds but scientists have aproved the fact that this planet can support far more population than there is right now. <span id='postcolor'>

Maybe so, but we don't want to live like a sac of wet rats like in Europe and Asia (no offence) do we?

[KingBeast 0]

lol what do you mean like a sac of wet rats?

[Jester983 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ July 26 2002,01:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As mad as it sounds but scientists have aproved the fact that this planet can support far more population than there is right now.<span id='postcolor'>

If theres 2 things that dont get along its science and religion.

So this planet can support even more life huh? hmm thats interesting. I guess its true because thousands die every day.

where did you see that albert?

[KingBeast 0]

I think its pretty clear that the Earth can support a lot more population just by looking at how much empty space there is. Even in England which is tiny and yet holds 60 million people, theres a hole lot of space that could be built upon. Even more so in larger countries

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The bible is a 2000 year old instruction manual on how to live your life.  My essential problem is that people generally only use the bits of the bible they want to believe in, and discard the rest.

<span id='postcolor'>

we call it the "Salad Bar" syndrom

unfortunatly we dont know how the Eco-System will react to these changes. Example: world weather reacts to changes with a delay of 100 years.

this means that we are now paying the price for things done in the 19th century. what would happen next?