Is it just me or?

[killerwhale 1]

I'm wondering, do people have problem with this at all, i have not seen anyone complain about it, this is the latest dev version. what do you think, shouldnt this be a priority for BIS to fix since they're focused infantry aspect of the game right now? i mean the AI shouldnt be scanning with his gun to aim. it should be a quick reaction to the danger. THE AI IS SLOW TURNING, SLOW, SLOW,SLOOOOW

[antoineflemming 14]

I've just not said anything because, you know, you get the "It's an alpha" backlash. But, I don't understand how they end up removing assets that have nothing to do with the update. Opened up Stratis in the editor and got a missing fishing boat texture. I mean, did that have anything to do with the latest audio changes? Probably not.

For the AI, I think they are still doing way too many calculations. I mean, at this point, I'd rather have COD's AI (and, to all the COD-bashers, NO, their behavior isn't scripted and they don't show up in exactly the same place every time). That AI will quickly turn towards you and engage you. They will actually run away from or throw back grenades. They will actually advance on your position. They don't just stand in one spot shooting you (they actually use cover, and they use it to fire from, not just to hide). In fact, most games' AI do this. BIS needs to drastically simplify it's AI down to the essentials: follow their leader in the formation the leader specifies (and I don't care how careless or aware their behavior is, they should keep formation), immediately go prone and return fire when attacked, advance towards your position if they outnumber you, run away from grenades, pathfind around impassable objects, and fire in your general direction (using a high dispersion rate for the AI that decreases to the weapons dispersion rate as they narrow to your position).

[-Coulum- 35]

Yeah its been a problem for a while, infact it was also present in arma 2. Here's a ticket. And while I am at it here's another similar issue that also makes the ai look really useless.

@antoineflemming I agree with the general gist of what you say - AI needs to be able to do the basics before they start trying to make complex decisions and what not. In arma it seems that the ai can't do the basics and BIS has tried to make them more intelligent on the squad level (ie choosing the ideal route to advance along as a squad) but this falls apart since the ai can't think and act on the individual level well. I don't think COD is a good example, but there are games with more enjoyable ai that aren't totally scripted or on tiny maps. Not necessarily smarter in the grand scheme of things but definitely more human at the low level - which as an infantry player is the side we are really exposed to most - The ai don't seem so bad from an RTS perspective.

The problem I believe is that this part of the engine doesn't seem to flexible and even worse BIS doesn't seem to have someone who knows the ins and outs of it. So I think we will be lucky if we get much improvement on this front before final release...

[white 1]

I agree, currently the AI lacks any basic common sense.

[froggyluv 2136]

For the AI, I think they are still doing way too many calculations. I mean, at this point, I'd rather have COD's AI (and, to all the COD-bashers, NO, their behavior isn't scripted and they don't show up in exactly the same place every time)

Really? :rolleyes:

COD uses Hitscan and yes they are heavily scripted. Scripted doesn't just mean they are always in the exact same place - take a look at the Radiant editor in CoD and you will see you must place level design nodes for the AI to even move. Notice how no matter what map someone creates for Arma -AI can start moving/reacting right away -autonomous AI. In CoD this would not be possible without 'noding' the entire island.

Yes, I agree that Arma AI could benefit from some indoor 'noding' and do need to sometimes turn quicker and stay in cover in CQB (nade throwbacks are lame) , but I would never trade a CTI Island with hundreds of AI for CoD style garbage. Ive got a mission in which AI spawn randomly at windows and balconies in Agia Marina and then I go in for some town clearing -the AI generally fire as soon as I enter an inch of their FoV from the window unless I come in completely from the other side. Ive taken pot shots in the pitch black at AI on balconies from 200m out and they ran inside after about 5 seconds -a little too long for a player but not bad. You have to remember, if a person noticed a bullet hitting near them while in a similar situation -within the blink of an eye he would ask himself if he had any indication of where that shot came from -and then react accordingly ie return accurate/suppressive fire or run indoors if zero indication of shooter. The AI will never be able to react like that.

[antoineflemming 14]

Really? :rolleyes:

COD uses Hitscan and yes they are heavily scripted. Scripted doesn't just mean they are always in the exact same place - take a look at the Radiant editor in CoD and you will see you must place level design nodes for the AI to even move. Notice how no matter what map someone creates for Arma -AI can start moving/reacting right away -autonomous AI. In CoD this would not be possible without 'noding' the entire island.

Yes, I agree that Arma AI could benefit from some indoor 'noding' and do need to sometimes turn quicker and stay in cover in CQB (nade throwbacks are lame) , but I would never trade a CTI Island with hundreds of AI for CoD style garbage. Ive got a mission in which AI spawn randomly at windows and balconies in Agia Marina and then I go in for some town clearing -the AI generally fire as soon as I enter an inch of their FoV from the window unless I come in completely from the other side. Ive taken pot shots in the pitch black at AI on balconies from 200m out and they ran inside after about 5 seconds -a little too long for a player but not bad. You have to remember, if a person noticed a bullet hitting near them while in a similar situation -within the blink of an eye he would ask himself if he had any indication of where that shot came from -and then react accordingly ie return accurate/suppressive fire or run indoors if zero indication of shooter. The AI will never be able to react like that.

At least the AI actually reacts to you. I'm not talking about shooting mechanics, which is essentially calculated projectiles vs hitscan. The AI will respond to you at a speed more resembling reality. I don't give a damn how they go about doing it, but it accomplishes the job. I don't give a damn how sophisticated BIS's AI calculations are; if they aren't responding in a quick, reactionary fashion, if they are constantly stopping and running, constantly running back and forth in the open (yes, they do that), then it still needs work. Sure, maybe COD isn't a good example of how to program your AI, but certainly that's what I want for the end result. An AI that will respond believably to what I throw at it (and yes, a large part of that is being suppressed and not standing still when I throw a grenade at their feet). Pretty much, like in the video above, when the player shoots at the enemy, the enemy should turn around quickly and respond. Now, sure, if you're far away, they might not immediately fire in the right direction, but they should at least quickly turn to and fire in the cardinal directions. It's not hard to tell if fire is coming from your left, right, front, or rear, so the AI should at least quickly face those directions when they are fired at. It'd be nice if AI would use the stance adjustments to fire from cover (yeah, bash COD but AI, however scripted, does that. Oh, and please do note, EVERYTHING runs on scripts and config files). It'd be nice if the AI responded to grenades. Sure, you really wouldn't throw back a grenade unless it landed at your feet and you could throw it back quickly, but at least the AI could run away from the grenades instead of standing there like it isn't there.

[froggyluv 2136]

I don't give a damn... I don't give a damn.... what I want for the end result

Yes and Chessmaster, the bots ALWAYS know the best place to go just like PacMan!!! I want that!!! Different games have strengths and weaknesses -the only strength of the modern FPS shooter vs Arma IMO is the quicker reaction -sometimes too quick albeit. The strengths of Arma AI are vast but do lack for CQB as that is not what the engine was built upon. There is no game featuring autonomous AI that does these things well and its not like Suma left a single piece of code laying about that would give what you ask. In OFP, AI didnt even use cover except by happenstance so they have improved it yet it seems when trying to build a world sandbox-esque type game -these improvements will come in increments. Better than no AI at all *cough* Battlefield.

Oh, and please do note, EVERYTHING runs on scripts and config files).

Thats like saying all games are the same as they all run on the same thing -code.... Im sure your playing naive here and know full well what the expression -scripted shooter AI vs autonomous AI means.

[chortles 263]

I believe that his point is that at best right now we're getting "one step forward, one step back" as far as AI... I remember InstaGoat mentioning something about the intended plan for AI as of Gamescom 2012 being "no new AI features until they've got the basics down", but lately we're hearing that the AI still doesn't have even said basics...

[jw custom 56]

Sometimes AI operates really well while other times they seem extremely retarded.

It's probably a very time consuming and not easy task but the AI needs a overhauling.

[chortles 263]

Unfortunately the impression also seems to be that the kind of overhaul that'd be needed is one that they've already run out of time for... (and by "out of time", I mean the deadline of final release by Q3 2013, what with the specter of at least two or three delays hanging over this game's reputation already).

[sqb-sma 66]

Unfortunately the impression also seems to be that the kind of overhaul that'd be needed is one that they've already run out of time for... (and by "out of time", I mean the deadline of final release by Q3 2013, what with the specter of at least two or three delays hanging over this game's reputation already).

They can delay as much as they like, we've already got an alpha on our hands (and A2 + mods), I'm content to wait for a better final product than to be let down on final release.

[chortles 263]

They can delay as much as they like, we've already got an alpha on our hands (and A2 + mods), I'm content to wait for a better final product than to be let down on final release.

Unfortunately this conversation was already had months ago back when the Steamworks announcement happened -- no matter how much people may have professed "delay as much as needed to have a non-Steam version" (or insert-desired-feature-here), Maruk wasn't willing to wait anymore, he told the devs "do all we can to release Arma 3 in 2013" (DnA outright said that "we feel that without going Steam-exclusive, we would not be able to release Arma 3 in 2013") and presumably the development directions that we're seeing are made within the constraint of that deadline.

[killerwhale 1]

They can delay as much as they like, we've already got an alpha on our hands (and A2 + mods), I'm content to wait for a better final product than to be let down on final release.

But it doesnt seem that they are interested in fixing the AI problem. Remember the Alpha is suppose to focus on infantry aspect of game? everytime they release an update, it is about something else and never the AI. I mean who cares the looks of the clouds or folliage when the fundamental aspect of the game is faulty. Here we have an AI that doesnt even recognise grenades as a threat, cant use buildings effectively, cant tell what direction fire is coming from unless he scans while turning slowly, that is what it takes for the ai to tell your position. and the worst part of all? This has been a problem since Arma 1. The company probably thinks we don't mind. This must not carry to Arma 3. For me, Arma 3 will decide whether i continue to look forward to Bohemia games or not

[froggyluv 2136]

But it doesnt seem that they are interested in fixing the AI problem. Remember the Alpha is suppose to focus on infantry aspect of game? everytime they release an update, it is about something else and never the AI. I mean who cares the looks of the clouds or folliage when the fundamental aspect of the game is faulty. Here we have an AI that doesnt even recognise grenades as a threat, cant use buildings effectively, cant tell what direction fire is coming from unless he scans while turning slowly, that is what it takes for the ai to tell your position. and the worst part of all? This has been a problem since Arma 1. The company probably thinks we don't mind. This must not carry to Arma 3. For me, Arma 3 will decide whether i continue to look forward to Bohemia games or not

I'm pretty sure they are 'interested' but from the sounds of it their AI is a bit of an unknown wild beast that must be tamed first. Meaning, they've stated that much of their AI code is unknown as some of the floor level programmers are gone and it's probably very much similar to adding more cards to a very shaky cardhouse with a wavering foundation. As long as i've been here I've never once seen a Dev reply to the overall AI mandate -they'll say "if you find a bug, repro and report", but never an overall pipeline of their plans, intentions or dreams for Arma AI.

[killerwhale 1]

they've stated that much of their AI code is unknown as some of the floor level programmers are gone and it's probably very much similar to adding more cards to a very shaky cardhouse with a wavering foundation.

that explains it, i guess we'll just sit back and see if they do anything about it.

[iexus 10]

I agree that the AI really needs a look at and unless they plan on drastically toning down it's role in the game it's going to be tough to correct all the flaws that keep popping up.