Autorotations...

[foxfan911 10]

Well, last night, I was doing autorotations and noticed that in TkOH, autorotation can be easily achieved with zero forward airspeed. This was very disappointing cause it's not even close. There is no challenge, risk, or reward to doing an autorotation if you don't have to maintain an appropriate autorotation profile, with forward airspeed being critical!! I tried it on "trainee" and "expert" mode so it looks like this is an issue with the flight modeling. Somebody, please tell me I'm wrong and that there is a option or setting I overlooked that will enable realistic autorotations. Doesn't have to be totally realistic, but it needs to be at least close!!

[JohnKalo 657]

I would suspect that you haven't played some certain missions in the career mode. I will not say anything else since they would work as spoilers. But don't you worry you will be thrilled....

[foxfan911 10]

That is true, I haven't played career mode and I'm sure it is thrilling. I am just pointing out that autorotations are not realistic at all. An autorotation requires forward airspeed- air moving through the rotors to glide. In the game, you can just float down with no airspeed at all. Zero airspeed. So there is no "dead man's curve"....which drastically kills the thrill because there is no challenge/risk/reward for keeping yourself alive by a proper autorotation!! In real life, no forward airspeed means insufficient air would be flowing through the rotor disk to keep it turning enough to store enough energy for the flare and cushioning of the landing. With no forward airspeed, you would basically fall out of the sky. Other games/sims model this, such as FSX. This needs to be fixed for sure because it's totally unrealistic and it's not even close.

[JohnKalo 657]

I must say that auto-rotation with no forward airspeed is impossible in my game-play. I fall like a rock or something. And I am aware of that because I had to try many auto-rotations till I finally succeeded in the tutorial. And even in the career missions, well I can't say what happens, but it was really challenging and difficult and what you call a "dead man's curve" was really critical. Especially under those circumstances.

One experience that I had was in multiplayer, a convoy mission, so that I can tell you about the details, an armored car damaged my engines and auto-rotation was needed even under extreme and continues gunfire. I managed to land but it was so rough that the blades were destroyed and the helicopter became even more useless. I got out, fortunately I had equipped myself with some weapons, and started fighting on foot. After a while of changing of gunfire with the enemy AI and fortunately after I had walked away from the chopper, the chopper just exploded making it's weapons totally useless.

So the auto-rotation procedure is really critical and important if you want to survive and I really don't now how you manage it with no forward air speed.

[exe_74rus 1]

I without sufficient foreign exchange rate at the autorotation is stalling.

[foxfan911 10]

Well I really don't either. Are you playing Take on Helicopters or Hinds or what? I wonder if somehow perhaps Steam didn't update my game.

After I read your post, I went to the game and flew the Autorotation training mission, and completed both missions with close to zero airspeed (+ or - maybe 3 mph). I then went into my editor and created a mission and did three auto's with basically zero airspeed. I also made a video of it, I'll post it when I get home from work.

I must say that auto-rotation with no forward airspeed is impossible in my game-play. I fall like a rock or something. And I am aware of that because I had to try many auto-rotations till I finally succeeded in the tutorial. And even in the career missions, well I can't say what happens, but it was really challenging and difficult and what you call a "dead man's curve" was really critical. Especially under those circumstances.

One experience that I had was in multiplayer, a convoy mission, so that I can tell you about the details, an armored car damaged my engines and auto-rotation was needed even under extreme and continues gunfire. I managed to land but it was so rough that the blades were destroyed and the helicopter became even more useless. I got out, fortunately I had equipped myself with some weapons, and started fighting on foot. After a while of changing of gunfire with the enemy AI and fortunately after I had walked away from the chopper, the chopper just exploded making it's weapons totally useless.

So the auto-rotation procedure is really critical and important if you want to survive and I really don't now how you manage it with no forward air speed.

---------- Post added at 05:20 ---------- Previous post was at 05:02 ----------

What are you playing. Is this HINDS?? Anyway, I think I see what you are doing....you are probably stalling by raising the collective too soon, which results in bleeding crucial rotor RPMs. I will post video of my zero airspeed autos.

I without sufficient foreign exchange rate at the autorotation is stalling.

[JohnKalo 657]

The game that I am playing is Take on Helicopters Rearmed. No Hinds version. Looking forward to looking into your video.

[exe_74rus 1]

What are you playing. Is this HINDS?? Anyway, I think I see what you are doing....you are probably stalling by raising the collective too soon, which results in bleeding crucial rotor RPMs. I will post video of my zero airspeed autos.

Yes.

This was my training. Who is better. Sometimes it turns to put Hinds without a tail rotor.

[foxfan911 10]

This is what I'm talking about. Sorry, it's a little loud.

***When I said "engine RPMs", I meant rotor RPMs.

Edited April 2, 2013 by foxfan911

[exe_74rus 1]

What is this? Why complexity noob? Where the video of an expert?

Discuss the simulator on easy does not make sense.

[foxfan911 10]

What is this?- This is an autorotation achieved with no forward airspeed.

Why complexity noob?- What??? I don't know what you are using for your translations, but they don't make sense.

Where the video of an expert- This video was made to illustrate an autorotation with zero forward airspeed, and for that purpose only. If you are referring to the difficulty setting, that makes no difference, the zero airspeed autorotation can be done in any difficulty setting. So to answer your question, this is an expert video of me showing you that a zero airspeed autorotation can be done.

Discuss the simulator on easy does not make sense.- It makes perfect sense. If you scroll up and read, you will see that the subject of this thread is achievable autorotations with zero forward airspeed. If you scroll up and read, you will see that in the fourth sentence I indicated that this applies to "expert" difficulty level: " I tried it on "trainee" and "expert" mode so it looks like this is an issue with the flight modeling." Zero airspeed autorotations is the content of this discussion.

The entire purpose of this thread was to state that a zero airspeed autorotation is achievable. The entire purpose of the video was to show that a zero airspeed autorotation is achievable.

What is this? Why complexity noob? Where the video of an expert?

Discuss the simulator on easy does not make sense.

[JohnKalo 657]

Man that is a problem alright. I will soon try the same thing on my computer so as to be 110% sure that this can not happen in my game-play. Maybe you should send this video to Bohemia Interactive itself because maybe in some way damage is disabled in your game. I am not sure if this is possible so have you ever crashed in other situations with your chopper?

OK here are my results. As expected I was burned and crushed as a pilot a couple of times.

---------- Post added at 17:11 ---------- Previous post was at 16:44 ----------

And one more.

http://imageshack.us/a/img43/3295/takeonh2013040219594344.jpg

Well I really can't get how you manage to land like you do.

I will keep looking for other possible issues but I can't promise you anything...

Edited April 2, 2013 by Helicopterenthusiast
just tried it

[foxfan911 10]

No, damage is not disabled- I have crashed plenty of times, several times just making that video.

I am about 99.9% sure that this is a flight modeling issue. I went back and checked my individual settings related to damage and they are all correct.

I bet you a thousand dollars (not really) that you can do this too. Pull collective at the very last moment at 100 feet or so and it will cushion your landing. Without forward airspeed, there wouldn't be enough air moving up through the rotor disk to keep the RPMS up enough to cushion a landing. The autorotation aspect of the game needs to be fixed.

Bohemia Interactive monitors these forums for fan feedback, however, I will probably take your suggestion and post it in the "Suggestions" or "Troubleshooting" forums. I have to be careful though, I already got in trouble- one infraction point for "cross posting" :-)

[badgenes 1]

Now, I haven't tried your example but will. I was looking for help with FaceTrack sensitivity (TrackIR protocol) in game. Seeing this, I had to ask you a question. Now, mind you I am well aware of the issue swith this 'sim'. That being said, it both sounds like (during descent) and appears (rotors begin turning after recovering from flare) that you have torque going to the disc. Please explain. Thanks!

No, damage is not disabled- I have crashed plenty of times, several times just making that video.

I am about 99.9% sure that this is a flight modeling issue. I went back and checked my individual settings related to damage and they are all correct.

I bet you a thousand dollars (not really) that you can do this too. Pull collective at the very last moment at 100 feet or so and it will cushion your landing. Without forward airspeed, there wouldn't be enough air moving up through the rotor disk to keep the RPMS up enough to cushion a landing. The autorotation aspect of the game needs to be fixed.

Bohemia Interactive monitors these forums for fan feedback, however, I will probably take your suggestion and post it in the "Suggestions" or "Troubleshooting" forums. I have to be careful though, I already got in trouble- one infraction point for "cross posting" :-)

---------- Post added at 21:40 ---------- Previous post was at 20:04 ----------

Test 1

Medium CG bird

Seattle Free Flight, some clouds, othewise beautiful weather. Little choppy but smooth with altitude.

"SIM" settings, not game

ALT - 1500

SPD - ~2

Auto-shutdown (Right-CTRL E )

Drop like damn rock, blades pick up speed during descent but not enough. Blades stall, disc stops rotating, SMASH.

Test 2

Same as above.

Auto-shutdown (Right-CTRL E )

Drop like rock but immediately feed fwd cyclic. During my ~1300 ft freefall I gain ~ 40 - 50 knots as carefully as possible. I almost landed it, but almost did not save my little dude from dying that day. Again.

Test 3

Same, marginally better landing (only damaged very very badly this time), kept fwd managed better.

I observed rotor disc that sped up as I fell through air and slowed, then stopped when collective applied.

I was unable to do much more than die rapidly when I tried to hold her within ~3 knots of 0.

VERDICT: Latest Beta patch, auto rotation appears properly modeled. I didn't analyze disc physics and all, but for a half hour of screwing around the sim proved to me that autorotate at 0 fwd motion = lots of little pieces

Let me know if you duplicate this test.

Now, I haven't tried your example but will. I was looking for help with FaceTrack sensitivity (TrackIR protocol) in game. Seeing this, I had to ask you a question. Now, mind you I am well aware of the issue swith this 'sim'. That being said, it both sounds like (during descent) and appears (rotors begin turning after recovering from flare) that you have torque going to the disc. Please explain. Thanks!

[foxfan911 10]

Ok, well I basically duplicated your tests several times on the medium helicopter, except I started from a higher altitude of ~3000. While it certainly does fall a lot faster than the little bird, it still has sufficient rotor RPMS to cushion the landing. So this reaffirms to me that this has got to be an issue with the flight model. I guess I will try the heavy model next. I am going to do several autorotations in the middle of the AVOID zones on the Height-Velocity diagram, aka Dead Man's curve.

As for your situation with your blades stalling, I think you might be pulling the collective too early. In an autorotation, you should pull the collective pretty much at the last moment. If you raise it too early or too high, the rotor disc inertia will bleed and you will have a hard landing or worse. And we want to keep your little dude from dying :D

My Verdict- Autorotation is NOT properly modeled. This is the second time I made video evidence proving that. Watch my gauges in the video, especially in this one. You can clearly see that my speed is definitely within ~3 knots of 0.

Watch and see:

Now, I haven't tried your example but will. I was looking for help with FaceTrack sensitivity (TrackIR protocol) in game. Seeing this, I had to ask you a question. Now, mind you I am well aware of the issue swith this 'sim'. That being said, it both sounds like (during descent) and appears (rotors begin turning after recovering from flare) that you have torque going to the disc. Please explain. Thanks!

---------- Post added at 21:40 ---------- Previous post was at 20:04 ----------

Test 1

Medium CG bird

Seattle Free Flight, some clouds, othewise beautiful weather. Little choppy but smooth with altitude.

"SIM" settings, not game

ALT - 1500

SPD - ~2

Auto-shutdown (Right-CTRL E )

Drop like damn rock, blades pick up speed during descent but not enough. Blades stall, disc stops rotating, SMASH.

Test 2

Same as above.

Auto-shutdown (Right-CTRL E )

Drop like rock but immediately feed fwd cyclic. During my ~1300 ft freefall I gain ~ 40 - 50 knots as carefully as possible. I almost landed it, but almost did not save my little dude from dying that day. Again.

Test 3

Same, marginally better landing (only damaged very very badly this time), kept fwd managed better.

I observed rotor disc that sped up as I fell through air and slowed, then stopped when collective applied.

I was unable to do much more than die rapidly when I tried to hold her within ~3 knots of 0.

VERDICT: Latest Beta patch, auto rotation appears properly modeled. I didn't analyze disc physics and all, but for a half hour of screwing around the sim proved to me that autorotate at 0 fwd motion = lots of little pieces

Let me know if you duplicate this test.

[JohnKalo 657]

I can not say that I am an expert in these things but how about the airspeed that is provided by the weather conditions or even the airspeed caused by the helicopter falling.

The later is clearly significant 40 meters per second, I believe.

Can't these forces play any role in the helicopter's re-stabilization?