Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
HKFlash

Controls Scheme & User Interface Feedback

Recommended Posts

No, what I meant that "multiplayer balance isn't always that much better outside of ARMA" either. Remember the legendary MW2 Commando Pro/Lightweight Pro/Marathon Pro combo, the old One Man Army perk from MW2, the way that Black Ops multiplayer development explicitly promoted itself on being the anti-MW2 (i.e. claims of nerfing the grenade launcher, quickscoping, knifing), and how the backlash from the fans of those things I understand influenced MW3 development... and that's in COD alone. :P To say nothing of balance arguments in BF3 over mobile AA back in the day (vs. both infantry AND heavier armor), jet fighters right now (they're called "sky gods" for a reason), the AC-130 being available to the Attackers team during Rush matches in the Armored Kill DLC maps, the Recon class being supposedly de facto useless and especially between firearms (remember the outcry over the "damage nerf" with OA/CO 1.62?)... Or heck, how BRINK had its own "obvious superior" weapons, though thanks to BI being PC-exclusive they won't have console-certification-enforced patch delaying to doom ARMA 3 like BRINK was doomed by.

The above is what I meant by "Controls and interface are what ARMA can learn from "the rest of the world"... balance, not so much.". ;) You're fine and right about not letting MP balance go awry like in the past, but "the rest of the world" aren't sterling examples of the ideal in practice, unlike controls and interface.

Edited by Chortles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing that I would really, really like to see is some of the controls split. Right now we have All, Infantry, Vehicle, Aircraft, Bulldozer, and Custom controls.

I would like to see All, Infantry, Wheeled, Tracked, Fixed-Wing, Helicopters, Boats, Bulldozer, and Custom controls.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Separation of fixed and rotary aircraft would be warranted in this case, http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?139228-Controls-Scheme-amp-User-Interface-Feedback&p=2216817&viewfull=1#post2216817

As it currently stands with the scroll action menu in ArmA II, everything of worth and divergence is crammed into it, while the rest of the keybindings stay identical for vehicles and aircraft.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the action menu is good as it is. I don't like the idea of using the number keys to quickly switch to different seats or weapons.

But I do want the ability to assign keys to helicopters, fixed-wing, tracked, and wheeled vehicles separately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think the action menu is good as it is. I don't like the idea of using the number keys to quickly switch to different seats or weapons.

Why not? A delay could be added to factor in realism, as I mentioned. Scroll action menu is unbearable in combat, the whole interface revolves around the AI command - this is why you don't see such features like weapon selection, vehicle seat changes on the number row.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMO G could be to cycle grenades,F to cycle firing modes or select weapon and if you need to go into gear then a key on the numpad would suffice.Going into your gear should be a hard press since its not used in combat really.Also,is it possible to have a key on keyboard that functions in same way as Rmouse.If so you could have HOLD-F as semi and press it to get burst and full.G-HOLD is always frag grenade while press G cylces thru smoke etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why not? A delay could be added to factor in realism, as I mentioned. Scroll action menu is unbearable in combat, the whole interface revolves around the AI command - this is why you don't see such features like weapon selection, vehicle seat changes on the number row.
For weapons there's already a "realism delay" in the form of transition time (this is supposed to be quick, particularly between rifle and pistol, otherwise there's no point in transitioning), while for weapons or seats a separate key would simply be "the character makes the decision to switch to that specific weapon or seat and begins the animation"...
IMO G could be to cycle grenades,F to cycle firing modes or select weapon and if you need to go into gear then a key on the numpad would suffice.Going into your gear should be a hard press since its not used in combat really.Also,is it possible to have a key on keyboard that functions in same way as Rmouse.If so you could have HOLD-F as semi and press it to get burst and full.G-HOLD is always frag grenade while press G cylces thru smoke etc.
Keyboard presses are binary, so unfortunately the idea of "hard press" won't work, although the idea of "tap to cycle, hold for a default" is interesting, and I like the idea of F to cycle firing modes... considering this, if we give "throwables" a separate selection key, then F can cycle fire modes if you have such a weapon selected (whether long gun or automatic sidearm) or cycle grenades if you have grenades selected.

Note that I think of the number row as generally more of an "equipment selection" row than a weapons row, if only because the weapon inventory slots may still be limited to one long gun, one dedicated launcher (think SMAW instead of M203) and one sidearm; if so then we're basically looking at just two ("long gun/sidearm" transition key, launcher-cycle key), three (separate keys for the launchers or BF3-style separate keys for long gun and sidearm plus one launcher key*), or four (separate long gun and sidearm key, separate underbarrel launcher key, separate dedicated launcher key).

* BF3 game mechanics limit Assaults to an underbarrel weapon (launcher or shotgun) and Engineers to dedicated launcher (anti-air or anti-armor), while COD's dedicated launchers are secondary weapons (their slot is in place of sidearms) and their underbarrel weapons get a separate key, hence the different suggestions since ARMA 3 is not identical to either of them; unlike COD/BF3, "long gun with underbarrel weapon, sidearm AND dedicated launcher" is possible in ARMA, hence the above ideas from me!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bohemia Interactive is currently in the process of finding alternative ways to map out the keys. And they are trying alternatives to the action menu. I'm sure they'll figure something out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Trying out different keybind defaults makes sense, it's a question of whether the underlying system will allow for certain ones (such as Iroquois' excessively-plastered-all-over-other-threads talk of dedicated weapons keys), and whether we'll get to see such an "action menu" alternative in the community alpha to playtest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trying out different keybind defaults makes sense, it's a question of whether the underlying system will allow for certain ones (such as Iroquois' excessively-plastered-all-over-other-threads talk of dedicated weapons keys),

That's the crux of the problem: we don't even have info whether there will be dedicated weapons/equipment mappings. :) Whether grenades would be number key 3, or 4, or 5 is a matter of taste, first we need to have it mappable in-game!

Something which hasn't been mentioned in this thread: binocs and NVGs have their own dedicated keys - B & N, though these two items are not death-sensitive, yet often-used weapons like grenades, the under barrel GL, sidearms are forced on the player via either the F key or the scroll list. :(

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

By mappable in-game, do you mean something Battlefield 2-style?

To my recollection the sidearms use the ";" key, while dedicated launchers use the scroll wheel (ditto for the SMAW's spotting). Again, to contrast with BF3, both underbarrel and dedicated launchers use the same key in BF3 but only because the class system restricts them to Assault or Engineer respectively, so that the question of "separate keys or cycling between launchers" does not come up in that, like it could in ARMA 3.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
By mappable in-game, do you mean something Battlefield 2-style?

Something like every single FPS since 1996. :) Mappable means you can bind it to any other key, like in the case in WASD - if you don't like it, you can use the arrowkeys, or TFGH, or any other combination.

To my recollection the sidearms use the ";" key

We indeed have a "switch to sidearm" key in ArmA II, but the ";" is so far away from WASD, that it defeats the purpose.

Again, to contrast with BF3, both underbarrel and dedicated launchers use the same key in BF3 but only because the class system restricts them to Assault or Engineer respectively, so that the question of "separate keys or cycling between launchers" does not come up in that, like it could in ARMA 3.

Can't speak for BF3, but BF Bad Company 2 had the under barrel GL at number key 3, which is a very convenient place for it, Primary weapons = 1, Sidearm = 2, Misc (ammo box, med kit, repair tool - class dependent) = 4. AT/RPG in ArmA III could be on number key 5, there's a whole row to use for weapons and equipment, but it's currently being occupied by useless AI command menu!*

*Useless in PvP, Online Co-Op, Solo missions and missions where AI is in command/Team leader. :)

P.S. Even the first page of this thread has an explanation for the number row map, in short:

Numbey key 1 - Primary weapon;

Key 2 - Sidearm/Handgun;

Key 3 - Under barrel Grenade Launcher;

Key 4 - Grenades (Frag/Smoke (red)/Smoke (green)/Smoke (etc) - tap repeatedly to cycle between types)

Key 5 - AT/RPGs;

That's the main group, more can be added to the remaining ones.

Edited by Iroquois Pliskin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We indeed have a "switch to sidearm" key in ArmA II, but the ";" is so far away from WASD, that it defeats the purpose.

It is there since OFP:R days, it used to be use "y" key, I map it to "t" (for transition)

Still within reach of index finger without stretching too much, easier to locate then number row(for those who knows how to type properly anyway)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Trying out different keybind defaults makes sense, it's a question of whether the underlying system will allow for certain ones (such as Iroquois' excessively-plastered-all-over-other-threads talk of dedicated weapons keys), and whether we'll get to see such an "action menu" alternative in the community alpha to playtest.

It's not only him, but yes, he is the "master plaster" ... :p

Yes, we need dedicated weapon keys! Not because everything is mappable but because of the underlying mechanics. It would be nice though if every key/function would be mappable, even better if there was a moddable interface. But moddability of the interface maybe asking to much ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, we need dedicated weapon keys! Not because everything is mappable but because of the underlying mechanics. It would be nice though if every key/function would be mappable, even better if there was a moddable interface. But moddability of the interface maybe asking to much ...

Remapping keys isn't exactly "mod-ability", just basic game function. I doubt that many would even remap the default 1-5 (0-9) weapons selection scheme - I know I don't in all of my FPS!

"Mappable" and "dedicated keys" are interchangeable here, first a particular weapon selection needs to be a separate action on the keyboard for it to become mappable. :)

Edited by Iroquois Pliskin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Remapping keys isn't exactly "mod-ability", just basic game function. I doubt that many would even remap the default 1-5 (0-9) weapons selection scheme - I know I don't in all of my FPS!

That's what I said ...

"Mappable" and "dedicated keys" are not interchangeable here, first a particular weapon selection needs to be a separate action on the keyboard for it to become mappable. :)

I fixed it for you. The mechanics for dedicated keys must be implemented into the engine before "mappability" will be of any use. That's what I said, what did you read? :)

Remapping keys isn't that much of an issue for me, because I've been using a programable left hand controller for ages. Controlling movement with my thumb I have a lot of options for the other four fingers on my finger tips. But as of today there are still keys/functions in OA you cannot remap at all, i.e. the F-keys.

On the other hand, a fully moddable/scriptable interface would be a "nice to have" addition. But I doubt that will happen in ArmA 3.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The mechanics for dedicated keys must be implemented into the engine before "mappability" will be of any use.

Mechanic is there, all they have to do is remove the weapon selection actions from the scroll menu and the F-cycle key and assign keys.

Like I said, dedicated = mappable, even if it's not user-mappable per se, the developers will have mapped it to a default scheme, like in the example above, but first they need to separate them from the scroll lists.

---------- Post added at 11:06 ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 ----------

P.S. As an example, weapon Reload is both on a dedicated "R" key and in the action scroll menu.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the other hand, considering that a player may carry multiple different magazines compatible with the currently wielded weapon but with different rounds in them (i.e. tracer or subsonic), should the option to switch between those remain in the scroll menu?

(Incidental note, but when you spoke of "delays for realism", I thought of the need to go into the gear menu to deal with attachments and equipping/unequipping/dropping as an interesting method of implementing this delay.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
(Incidental note, but when you spoke of "delays for realism", I thought of the need to go into the gear menu to deal with attachments and equipping/unequipping/dropping as an interesting method of implementing this delay.)

It is. In fact any procedure that represents an appropriate delay but doesn't do it by being fiddly is good IMO. As long as the AI are also subject to it :) insta-change is a no-no.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mechanic is there, all they have to do is remove the weapon selection actions from the scroll menu and the F-cycle key and assign keys.

Like I said, dedicated = mappable, even if it's not user-mappable per se, the developers will have mapped it to a default scheme, like in the example above, but first they need to separate them from the scroll lists.

---------- Post added at 11:06 ---------- Previous post was at 10:58 ----------

P.S. As an example, weapon Reload is both on a dedicated "R" key and in the action scroll menu.

We seem to misread each others post a lot lately ... :)

No, the mechanic is not there! Or do you have first hand experience? To my knowledge you can`t assign the number keys (or any other key) to primary or nades. Not even with scripting. So this has to be implemented beforehand.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, the mechanic is not there! Or do you have first hand experience? To my knowledge you can`t assign the number keys (or any other key) to primary or nades. Not even with scripting. So this has to be implemented beforehand.

Does it matter? Devs are on top of this, concept is the key. :)

---------- Post added at 15:13 ---------- Previous post was at 15:10 ----------

(Incidental note, but when you spoke of "delays for realism", I thought of the need to go into the gear menu to deal with attachments and equipping/unequipping/dropping as an interesting method of implementing this delay.)

When I spoke of 1-3 second delays, it was in the context of number row keys being used for in-vehicle interaction, such as Key 1 - Driver's Seat, Key 2 - Gunner's Seat, Key 3 - Commander's Seat, Key 4 - Get out, so forth.

As you've mentioned, there's already realistic delay for infantry at it stands with primary weapon attachments, backpacking/unpacking equipment from and to the inventory, but these are generally NOT combat actions.

We're strictly dealing with combat here and the fact that primary weapons on a sling can be used very effectively in conjunction with sidearms and grenades for CQB. See the PvP thread.

---------- Post added at 15:18 ---------- Previous post was at 15:13 ----------



o1UlMdWH8FI

Animations speed is debatable, can be anything you like and Smookie would adjust accordingly to reflect feedback during testing, if indeed we get dedicated weapons/equipment keys - animation speed would balance the whole dynamic to stay within authentic limits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

*Carl Sagan mode on*

Layers, and layers, and layers, and layers, and layers, and layers of control....

*Carl Sagan mode off*

Really, it just not going to work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
*Carl Sagan mode on*

Layers, and layers, and layers, and layers, and layers, and layers of control....

*Carl Sagan mode off*

Ooh, is that the description of the F-cycle and the action scroll menu? :D Can't get more refined and accessible than five keys for main weapons group. GG

Really, it just not going to work.

Compelling arguments as always, to which I reply: enjoy your scroll lists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did I say anything about scroll list? no?

On and you only really need four(including fire mode select, which for some reason you are really fond of putting on the same key as weapon selection keys) if you actually understand how transition key work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Did I say anything about scroll list? no?

Devise an alternative, if you're against scroll lists and against dedicated keys? Is BIS prototyping a Wii remote control interface, perhaps? :D

On and you only really need four(including fire mode select, which for some reason you are really fond of putting on the same key as weapon selection keys) if you actually understand how transition key work.

Can your "transition" key transition between a pistol and primary's M203? How about pistol to AT4? AT4 to pistol? Exactly. Under any rational scheme fire mode selector stays on the F key, all of the weapons from the F key get removed and receive their own dedicated keys, so,

Numbey key 1 - Primary weapon;

Key 2 - Sidearm/Handgun;

Key 3 - Under barrel Grenade Launcher;

Key 4 - Grenades (Frag/Smoke (red)/Smoke (green)/Smoke (etc) - tap repeatedly to cycle between types)

Key 5 - AT/RPGs;

Plus the F fire selector key - Voila. If you have a better map, pls, pls, post it here, because I can't read other peoples' minds yet.

Edited by Iroquois Pliskin

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×