Controls Scheme & User Interface Feedback

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

How would people want flashlight, laser and other non-combat attachments to be operated? The same button: L.

I'd say flashlight is not life-death sensitive, though it could be mapped to a nearby key (for example:B key, if we move binocs/rangefinder to say, number row key 6)* (*Just thought to myself, binocs stay at B, flashlight, IR laser goes to 6, heh.:) ), while accessing grenades, under barrel grenade launchers, AT launchers (often milliseconds count against that "Surprise, T-90!"), sidearms in CQB, smoke grenades - that's very life-death sensitive.

Other case is Ease of Use and streamlined gameplay with added efficiency of being able to cover more space/environment: mines, satchels, other nasty stuff which has tedious repetitive actions.

---------- Post added at 10:37 ---------- Previous post was at 10:34 ----------

If you ask me, and I'm well aware you don't, weapon selection with a menu of any kind ain't doing it. Imho the "dedicated key" per weapon category is the only "clean" solution. Doesn't have to be the number keys! Dedicated is the "keyword" here and "category". And of course they have to be kept rebindable (is that even a word?).

100% true, there's no reason NOT to do it. Solution already has been found, all it takes is to create separate weapon classes, which would correspond to respective 0-9 key maps (or any other keys - fully customizable!), once the weapon/gadget is placed into your gear, unless that already has been done.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[dmarkwick 261]

So to summarise: 1) You have one person insisting for weaponry selection to be on a radial wheel with mouse selection; 2) One person with demagogic arguments, who is completely satisfied with scroll lists; 3) A group of sane people, who would be comfortable with number row keys, seeing as they are the only logical option.

Splendid

Well, I might continue the discussion, but again it's become apparent you cannot really discuss without this sort of nonsense. And, frankly, I'm getting rather bored with it all. I already said the number keys would be OK for weapon selection as long as there were no subordinate units selected, but hey, useless in the face of casual facetious dismissal. Which happens when you "simply believe" that only your and only your solution is "correct". This was a discussion remember. Apparently now it's a discussion about how to implement your, and only your, notion.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Well, I might continue the discussion, but again it's become apparent you cannot really discuss without this sort of nonsense. And, frankly, I'm getting rather bored with it all. I already said the number keys would be OK for weapon selection as long as there were no subordinate units selected

But then you want to duplicate this on a rose wheel, so what it is - both? Wishful thinking. I'm being in "assault mode", because we must concentrate on basic gameplay and the fact that we could miss the train and end up with scroll lists and F cycle again doesn't stick well with me.

[dmarkwick 261]

But then you want to duplicate this on a rose wheel, so what it is - both? Wishful thinking.

That's exactly it - it's not wishful thinking, it's perfectly possible, at the cost of one, single keypress designation. And, if a person doesn't wish to use it, there's no consequence. This is what I'm saying, the old system can remain in place for the "vets", for as long as the "switchover" is needed. Let's say that might be one ArmA iteration.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

That's exactly it - it's not wishful thinking, it's perfectly possible, at the cost of one, single keypress designation. And, if a person doesn't wish to use it, there's no consequence. This is what I'm saying, the old system can remain in place for the "vets", for as long as the "switchover" is needed.

You speak of the vets as if they were cripples. :) Why would the old system remain, and more importantly which parts of the system?

Do you agree that the F key should be only responsible for fire selection/safety?

Do you agree that weapon selection would be completely removed from the scroll list?

Do you agree that the former two components would be merged into one and placed on the number row keys - from grenades to satchels to sidearms?

[Guess Who 10]

That's exactly it - it's not wishful thinking, it's perfectly possible, at the cost of one, single keypress designation. And, if a person doesn't wish to use it, there's no consequence. This is what I'm saying, the old system can remain in place for the "vets", for as long as the "switchover" is needed. Let's say that might be one ArmA iteration.

That's the problem. Tho old system isn't good enough! I for one wouldn't wanna stick with this F-key cycle crap. I thought there were some kind of consensus here.

[dmarkwick 261]

You speak of the vets as if they were cripples. :) Why would the old system remain, and more importantly which parts of the system?

Have you even discussed this with them? ;) They are quite vociferous in this area. And, although I don't really hold as strong an opinion on the current system, I do agree it should remain for at least one switchover iteration and not trashed & replaced suddenly.

Do you agree that the F key should be only responsible for fire selection/safety?

I have no strong opinion on the F key. It could be used to cycle through all modes of the current item (not just weapon).

Do you agree that weapon selection would be completely removed from the scroll list?

Yes, I'm not a fan of the scroll list at all in fact. I should like to have a system that allows for it's non-use.

Do you agree that the former two components would be merged into one and placed on the number row keys - from grenades to satchels to sidearms?

I agree that could work in a contextual way, i.e. no units selected. If units are selected, then those number keys should command them.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Have you even discussed this with them? ;) They are quite vociferous in this area. And, although I don't really hold as strong an opinion on the current system, I do agree it should remain for at least one switchover iteration and not trashed & replaced suddenly.

I'm a vet, the other person you speak of is being irrational. Most of us play, or have played "Real" FPS back in 1999 onward.

I have no strong opinion on the F key. It could be used to cycle through all modes of the current item (not just weapon).

Guess Who is right, we thought there was some consensus here. Now you tell us, you have no strong opinion on the F key, when it's THE most game-breaking feature and a pain to use. I think I'll cease the discussion for now and let the lurkers and BIS decide as to the merits of my arguments.

[dmarkwick 261]

Guess Who is right, we thought there was some consensus here. Now you tell us, you have no strong opinion on the F key, when it's THE most game-breaking feature and a pain to use. I think I'll cease the discussion for now and let the lurkers and BIS decide as to the merits of my arguments.

Wait a second - I'm detecting a little confusion/crosspurposing here: so if you were to map Grenades to the 5 key (for example) how would you select which type of grenade?

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Wait a second - I'm detecting a little confusion/crosspurposing here: so if you were to map Grenades to the 5 key (for example) how would you select which type of grenade?

That's a genuine question and it has already been answered several times: you cycle it via 5 key repeatedly. How the mechanic would work is subject to review:

1) either cycle quickly via the parent key (5) without playing any animations;

2) select weapon class, in this case Grenades via 5 and cycle via R key;

3) cycle and confirm selection via left mouse button, which would present a slight safety hazard, but the HUD system does work in other games. See: Counter-Strike Source, this option is on by default, you can disable it in options and it becomes 1).

Then left click to throw/deploy and the correct item will be used as selected on the HUD - applies to all of the above cases. While it may seem like a lot of explaining for a very simple mechanic and in the case of multiple types of the same class (grenades) you still need to cycle through them on one key, it isn't the crammed F key with 7 items on it and it does work flawlessly, and is second nature to WSAD.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Iroquois Pliskin

[maddogx 13]

Wait a second - I'm detecting a little confusion/crosspurposing here: so if you were to map Grenades to the 5 key (for example) how would you select which type of grenade?

Press 5 multiple times to cycle grenade types, no?

1) either cycle quickly via the parent key (5) without playing any animations;

3) select weapon class, in this case Grenades via 5 and cycle via R key;

3) cycle and confirm selection via left mouse button, which would present a slight safety hazard, but the HUD does work in other games.

I would vote for #1, except that there should perhaps be some visual indicator when grenades have been selected - for example the soldier lowers his current weapon (rifle or pistol). Just to avoid situations where the player "forgets" that he has selected grenades.

Switching between grenade types shouldn't trigger an anim though.

Edited August 27, 2012 by MadDogX

[dmarkwick 261]

That's a genuine question and it has already been answered several times: you cycle it via 5 key repeatedly. How the mechanic would work is subject to review: either cycle quickly via the parent key, or cycle and confirm selection via left mouse button, which would present a slight safety hazard, but the HUD does work in other games.

I was aware that it was answered but I thought it needed clarification based on your reply to me. So in essence you're still cycling through weapon mode choices, you're just deciding that the F key is not suitable yes? I can understand though, that cycling through weapon modes with the same key you selected it with is preferable, but still, you're still cycling, which I thought was one of your concerns. It seems to me that if you miss your mode you still need to cycle all the way around again. The onscreen GUI mouse method would allow you to make a quicker selection IMO, but that's moot I suppose, seeing as the majority of people wish for a definite keyboard-only designation for weapon selection.

*edit*

3) select weapon class, in this case Grenades via 5 and cycle via R key;

"Cycle via the R key"??? And what about the world-over use of the R key as the Reload? :)

[rye1 21]

Getting in vehicles is awks... especially when someone else gets in then the "get in rear seat" disappears for a second. Then you click... then bang! :D Stupid system, so unsafe I have to safety my weapon! If we didn't have to scroll, it would be cool to use scroll to change weapon fire mode. :D

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

"Cycle via the R key"??? And what about the world-over use of the R key as the Reload? :)

Just some legacy thinking, you can already cycle nades via R in vanilla ArmA II. :) Option 1) is best.

[dmarkwick 261]

Getting in vehicles is awks... especially when someone else gets in then the "get in rear seat" disappears for a second. Then you click... then bang! :D Stupid system, so unsafe I have to safety my weapon! If we didn't have to scroll, it would be cool to use scroll to change weapon fire mode. :D

Yeah I hate that contextual action menu thing. Trying to get my hidden & prone subordinates to target something, then *poof* they all stand up & go romping off toward certain death because something else drifted in front of me :D

Edited August 27, 2012 by DMarkwick

[maddogx 13]

As far as interacting with vehicles is concerned, how about something like the TKOH approach, where you hold down a key and see several icons on the vehicle, each representing different actions?

Essentially, it could still be the "default action" key (or whatever it is currently caused) except that holding this key down makes the interaction icons appear. Moving the cursor over such an icon and releasing the key would then perform the action, such as getting in the vehicle at the selected position.

No more scroll menus.

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

you're just deciding that the F key is not suitable yes? I can understand though, that cycling through weapon modes with the same key you selected it with is preferable, but still, you're still cycling, which I thought was one of your concerns.

Incomparable: I can still select my M203 via a single number key 3 and flush you out; if you run behind a wall, I can quickly cycle through grenades with 5, which shouldn't be more than 1 key tap (1 tap - Frag grenades, 2 taps - Smoke grenade (green), 3 tap - Smoke grenade (red))

All the while my fire selector is operating flawlessly and I gain even more advantage by having everything within reach, such as sidearms etc.

[dmarkwick 261]

As far as interacting with vehicles is concerned, how about something like the TKOH approach, where you hold down a key and see several icons on the vehicle, each representing different actions?

Essentially, it could still be the "default action" key (or whatever it is currently caused) except that holding this key down makes the interaction icons appear. Moving the cursor over such an icon and releasing the key would then perform the action, such as getting in the vehicle at the selected position.

No more scroll menus.

Yep, I agree that moving away from scroll-menu actions should be the eventual goal. Onscreen GUI is preferable.

---------- Post added at 12:55 ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 ----------

Incomparable: I can still select my M203 via a single number key 3 and flush you out; if you run behind a wall, I can quickly cycle through grenades with 5, which shouldn't be more than 1 key tap (1 tap - Frag grenades, 2 taps - Smoke grenade (green), 3 tap - Smoke grenade (red))

All the while my fire selector is operating flawlessly and I gain even more advantage by having everything within reach, such as sidearms etc.

Well you nicely describe a perfectly executed attack on me :) but still in essence the same problem is there: that of cycling, and the possibility of mis-cycling past your choice. However, in principle I agree that, given that the number keys can be used for selection, they can also be used for cycling. I also agree that this could easily be replicated via GUI and a lot of people would find it preferable and more intuitive. But obviously, both systems have their place and so both systems should be in place. Luckily, there's no reason this cannot happen. If it can happen and not impact negatively either way - why not?

[chortles 263]

I thought we were looking for innovation :) I wouldn't like to slavishly advocate a system because every other game has it.

Conversely, I wouldn't like to slavishly retain a system just because the previous game had it.

Conversely, has anyone considered a U-shaped half-circle menu arrangement under the crosshairs?

[dmarkwick 261]

Conversely, I wouldn't like to slavishly retain a system just because the previous game had it.

That's not a fair description of my suggestion. I'm suggesting an augmentation that can be used alongside it.

Conversely, has anyone considered a U-shaped half-circle menu arrangement under the crosshairs?

Describe?

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Well you nicely describe a perfectly executed attack on me :) but still in essence the same problem is there: that of cycling, and the possibility of mis-cycling past your choice. However, in principle I agree that, given that the number keys can be used for selection, they can also be used for cycling.

You're exaggerating the problem now, which isn't a problem at all as proven in competitive games. Frag grenades are standard issue for infantry, not sure about smoke nades, so in theory, you'll be operating your nades with a single key press.

[dmarkwick 261]

You're exaggerating the problem now, which isn't a problem at all as proven in competitive games. Frag grenades are standard issue for infantry, not sure about smoke nades, so in theory, you'll be operating your nades with a single key press.

Wait what? When you describe it it's a problem, when I describe the same thing it's an exaggeration? OK I think I see the way things are going :D

[Leon86 13]

Can we have another way of interfacing with the game? For voice recognition? I'm not sure what would be suitable, but now the voice recognition is just pressing virtual buttons with a macro, would be nice if it could interface in a way like freetrack and trackir or something.

As for the interface my biggest annoyance was having max 12 guys to command and having F11 and F12 not select them but tabbed the interface to numbers above 10. As for ordering the AI around I try to give them as few orders as possible. staggered collumn and danger is all I use.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Leon86

[Iroquois Pliskin 0]

Wait what? When you describe it it's a problem, when I describe the same thing it's an exaggeration? OK I think I see the way things are going :D

You're comparing a single weapons class-dependent key with 3 possible selections, which you won't be using often, to the most important weapons mechanics in ArmA, which is the F key, that has 7+ item selections, which more often than not sees you d-e-a-d.

Everything is relative.

[dmarkwick 261]

Can we have another way of interfacing with the game? For voice recognition? I'm not sure what would be suitable, but now the voice recognition is just pressing virtual buttons with a macro, would be nice if it could interface in a way like freetrack and trackir or something.

As for the interface my biggest annoyance was having max 12 guys to command and having F11 and F12 not select them but tabbed the interface to numbers above 10. As for ordering the AI around I try to give them as few orders as possible. staggered collumn and danger is all I use.

The ideal solution is to have all the interface elements exposed to the modder. In that way, a sort of Darwinism will eventually float the best solutions up to the top :)