Gameplay changes planned for final?

[CaptainHaplo 1]

While I am enjoying the heck out of "testing" (read - playing) the beta, I have noticed a few things that I wonder if are "demo" only for testing purposes. I would HOPE that the plan is to change these to be more in line with the original game, and I will include my reasoning for why the changes should occur. If a BI person "in the know" could address this, I would greatly appreciate it!

#1 Supply barque. Testing has the barque submerged and extremely fast. This makes sense for testing, as it allows us to "get on with the game" - but in the final product this robs the player (and the AI) of some great tactics. If the barque was on the surface and given a reasonable speed, it could be a destroyable object, making it a high priority target that, if taken out - could cripple you or your enemy.

#2 Supply barque. This thing is FAST and has an unlimited range. As it is right now - there is little to no reason to change your "stockpile" island - just keep it as far away from the front line as possible. The "stockpile" designation does little because of the range and speed. In fact, there is no reason to even worry about fuel costs in travelling - because the barque can get you fuel fast enough it doesn't matter. It needs to be slowed tremendously so range does not need to be changed. This alone would force the player and AI to make more strategical decisions on where to strike. Predictable even in some cases - when a choke point is found - but that is what makes it more "realistic".

#3 Enemy Carrier. Maybe its a demo "cheat" for the AI - but this thing can nearly outrun a Manta right now. While I recognize that there have been a lot of complaints about the battle AI - and I know BI is working on it - this is just a killer. At the speed the Carrier can go, a player could not engage it unless the AI decided it wanted to battle. If it decides to retreat, you better hope to get in some engine hits fast to stop it, or else its gone. Slowing the carrier will require a heavier load on the AI to react to attacks in a "smart" manner (like prioritizing attacks against the player on engines, maxing engine repair, taking out the attacker, etc) but I have confidence this will occur. So will the speed come down?

#4 Islands lack regeneration. In the original, as long as the CC was up, structures would slowly be rebuilt. This needs to be put into the game - slow regeneration so that you have to supress as well as advance. While the island will "insta-heal" if you time warp away and back, there is no realtime rebuilding. It is drastically needed to balance the patient, methodical approach that makes the islands a bit too easy to crack as they are now. Otherwise, I could take do hit and runs on the chassis producers and rechargers, kill them all, then just wait while I get reinforcements (which takes no time - see 1 and 2) as well as waiting for the existing defenders to run out of "gas". Who cares if it takes an hour or 2 for the island to fall - the enemy carrier isn't a likely threat. With regeneration - a player will have to remain vigilant at all time - or get a nasty suprise!

These four changes - in the final product at least (and hopefully in a future beta or RC) will go a long way toward making the game a lot better. There are many issues and suggestions already reported, and I don't want to create a ticket on something that may already be planned - so if we can get some feedback from BI - we will know whether they need the ticket suggesting these changes of not. Of coures, a discussion of the above would be good as well - so all you readers chime in with your thoughts yea or nay.

Edited April 15, 2012 by CaptainHaplo

[Gazzareth 1]

In all honesty the speed of the supply barque does not bother me, in fact I like the fact that you can be resupplied on the move. That said I think there should be a speed penalty for getting supplied at long range, and one that is hefty enough to make you move your stockpile.

As for intercepting supplies, I have no problem in principle as long as the AI does not cheat... but given the outlay in time you would have to put in, I would rather be capturing islands.

When it comes to regeneration though, I think islands should be able to fight or regenerate, never both. The idea of all those spawn points coming back just as you are about to capture an island is not going to be welcome. Especially on the likes of a very strong defense island - perhaps there could be an extra difficulty level (you could call it "sadistic"). Once an island is captured (or the attack repulsed) it would be better to see everything gradually rebuild though, rather than repair in an instant.

Just my 2 cents though, my opinion is no more or less valid than yours.

G

[CaptainHaplo 1]

See - discussion is good.

I would like to see regeneration work as it did in the original - only one building at a time would be "repaired" or "rebuilt" - so it could be a turret, a production station, etc - how that would be decided could be a function of the need of the island - or random. The original had it where you could tell the building was being rebuilt - some minor graphical "haze" over the building would suffice to tell us - maybe even a radar blip on the map to show it. Something that just makes us pay a little more attention....

As for the resupply - I don't have a problem with it reaching across an ocean. The range for me isn't the issue - its the speed. I mean - why worry about fuel range when I can order a delivery and get it in under 1 minuted? Current island chains make the trip in about 30 seconds. You struck an interesting idea - maybe as range increases - speed decreases (as a constant)? I agree supply on the move is required - but it was heavily penalized in the original game as a very slow thing - just so that you had to pay attention to your range and fuel. I would just like to see that become something for the player to consider. It makes a difference if it takes 1 minute vs 10 to get supplied.

Its cool we see things differently - I am curious as to how everyone sees these.

[Imp0815 1]

I dont have the any problems with the points up there but what bothers me the most is that the game is to fast for long term Strategie.

All the units just blow up way to fast, most of the time i get the "Manta 04 is under Attak" one secound later its "Manta 04 was Destroyed".

I nearly got enrage when i lost all my start mantas and dont have ressources to rebuild them because they are so expensive with good Equipment. And i dont wast them, i always try to let them out of range of the AA and other Mantas. Same goes also with my Walroses but they go up in flames also to fast.

Then i quit using all my vehicles and just use one good manta and drive it by myself. Its very easy to snipe the AAs and F5 + F9 works realy fine. (i hate to do that its kind cheating but the game let me no choice)

So my gameplay change wisch is that all the units get more health for longer, better controll able and exciting Battles!

[Renegrade 1]

All the units just blow up way to fast, most of the time i get the "Manta 04 is under Attak" one secound later its "Manta 04 was Destroyed".

I agree. There is way too much instagib when going up against defense islands backed up by other defense islands (the "very strong" defense). It's not cool to have your entire Walrus column destroyed in a few seconds by a single Manta with rockets and plasma even though you had two flak walruses in the column.

More health or at least less damage on those high end weapons would be in order.

#1 Supply barque. Testing has the barque submerged and extremely fast. This makes sense for testing, as it allows us to "get on with the game" - but in the final product this robs the player (and the AI) of some great tactics. If the barque was on the surface and given a reasonable speed, it could be a destroyable object, making it a high priority target that, if taken out - could cripple you or your enemy.

It would be rather hard to intercept it, that would be mostly luck... Remember, the detection range is very small.. it's the same as the telemetry range, as far as I can tell.

#2 Supply barque. This thing is FAST and has an unlimited range. As it is right now - there is little to no reason to change your "stockpile" island - just keep it as far away from the front line as possible. The "stockpile" designation does little because of the range and speed. In fact, there is no reason to even worry about fuel costs in travelling - because the barque can get you fuel fast enough it doesn't matter. It needs to be slowed tremendously so range does not need to be changed. This alone would force the player and AI to make more strategical decisions on where to strike. Predictable even in some cases - when a choke point is found - but that is what makes it more "realistic".

This is a good point, and I like Gazzareth's idea about a speed penalty. Heck, sometimes a farther away stockpile is a faster resupply right now as the barque's navigation might be clearer.. it spends most of it's transit time maneuvering near start and end of the trip (much like the carrier).

Making the barque slower, and/or possibly carry less gear (so it has more space for it's own fuel) when it's farther away would make people choose their stockpile a bit more carefully..

#3 Enemy Carrier. Maybe its a demo "cheat" for the AI - but this thing can nearly outrun a Manta right now. While I recognize that there have been a lot of complaints about the battle AI - and I know BI is working on it - this is just a killer. At the speed the Carrier can go, a player could not engage it unless the AI decided it wanted to battle. If it decides to retreat, you better hope to get in some engine hits fast to stop it, or else its gone. Slowing the carrier will require a heavier load on the AI to react to attacks in a "smart" manner (like prioritizing attacks against the player on engines, maxing engine repair, taking out the attacker, etc) but I have confidence this will occur. So will the speed come down?

The original game's enemy carrier was much faster than a Manta.. and I do wish it would disengage more, I sort of like the idea of having to corner it and press it against an objective that it MUST defend (like it's last island or stockpile or something). And yeah, the AI does need work :(

#4 Islands lack regeneration. In the original, as long as the CC was up, structures would slowly be rebuilt. This needs to be put into the game - slow regeneration so that you have to supress as well as advance. While the island will "insta-heal" if you time warp away and back, there is no realtime rebuilding. It is drastically needed to balance the patient, methodical approach that makes the islands a bit too easy to crack as they are now. Otherwise, I could take do hit and runs on the chassis producers and rechargers, kill them all, then just wait while I get reinforcements (which takes no time - see 1 and 2) as well as waiting for the existing defenders to run out of "gas". Who cares if it takes an hour or 2 for the island to fall - the enemy carrier isn't a likely threat. With regeneration - a player will have to remain vigilant at all time - or get a nasty suprise!

So it doesn't regenerate, eh? I noticed that islands didn't recover anything during my attacks, but I wasn't sure if that was just very slow repair or no repair..

I would like to see some regeneration as well..although not too fast, and definitely with some sort of visual effect (like the command center's regeneration)..

[Anticept 10]

I think the demo we are seeing is a fraction of what BI has planned and already implemented. A lot of things seem very incomplete, or feel like there are gaps that were filled at one point.

I get the feeling this P&C is to see how the game performs at large on a lot of people's systems, and to see what bugs us the most. Right now, seriously, the AI is annoying the hell out of me. Always been a real problem in ARMA and the cause of phenomenal amounts of frustration... it's basically functional, but JUST that.

For CC:GM to really hit home with me, I'd like to see the AI take top priority for fixing, even if it takes all of the beta time to do it.

[CaptainHaplo 1]

I dont have the any problems with the points up there but what bothers me the most is that the game is to fast for long term Strategie.

The P&C only has 9 islands - the full game will have 30+ (would love to see that larger) so strategy will come into play more - provided the fast supply issue is resolved.

[Dajunka 10]

I dont have the any problems with the points up there but what bothers me the most is that the game is to fast for long term Strategie.

All the units just blow up way to fast, most of the time i get the "Manta 04 is under Attak" one secound later its "Manta 04 was Destroyed".

I nearly got enrage when i lost all my start mantas and dont have ressources to rebuild them because they are so expensive with good Equipment. And i dont wast them, i always try to let them out of range of the AA and other Mantas. Same goes also with my Walroses but they go up in flames also to fast.

Then i quit using all my vehicles and just use one good manta and drive it by myself. Its very easy to snipe the AAs and F5 + F9 works realy fine. (i hate to do that its kind cheating but the game let me no choice)

So my gameplay change wisch is that all the units get more health for longer, better controll able and exciting Battles!

This ^^^

I have tried to take several islands, and it's as Imp says, there is very little room for strategy, you need to cheat to win, and that is not good. Strategy was foremost in the original carrier command, that's what made it great. Please don't turn this into a shooter.

[Gazzareth 1]

This ^^^

I have tried to take several islands, and it's as Imp says, there is very little room for strategy, you need to cheat to win, and that is not good. Strategy was foremost in the original carrier command, that's what made it great. Please don't turn this into a shooter.

I wouldn't say you have to "cheat" to beat any island. From what I have seen you COULD take most non-defence islands pretty easily, even sending in the tanks straight off your units can survive. Strong defence islands are completely different (as they should be) you really need to clear out a good beachhead before sending in the walruses and keep them covered by air or they either get hammered or run out of ammo much to quickly. The only problem I find is that units don't try and get themselves out of trouble - Mantas especially, although selecting them and hitting F2 sometimes works.....

G

[Dajunka 10]

I mean, in most cases you don't have time to react before your vehicles are history. Saying that, this is very much a early beta and has a long way to go yet, so the balance thing will probably come later.

Edited April 18, 2012 by Dajunka

[CaptainHaplo 1]

I mean, in most cases you don't have time to react before your vehicles are history. Saying that, this is very much a early beta and has a long way to go yet, so the balance thing will probably come later.

Ever seen the AI attack one of your islands? The chassis get eaten alive. Same with yours. Its "fair" as in its consistent. Yes - improved AI (friend or enemy) will help - but I can only surmise your frustration. I don't allow the AI to control my units - I fly or drive it if its going into combat. I did that with the first one too. Its definitely NOT a shooter if you do that - its a tactical exercise run on the fly. Can I take out that one more gun? Can I hide behind this hill or wall and then pop up and shoot before I get destroyed or too badly damaged? What if the enemy produces a manta and it comes here and I don't see it? Should I return this chassis to the carrier for repair, refuel and rearm, or can I push it just a little farther? What should be my next target? The vehicles swarming the beach, the Manta's flying CAP, the guns doing overwatch, or the island chassis producers? Should I make this a set piece battle, maybe even accept the loss of a chassis or 2 to do it, or should I try and wear down the defenses?

If you just launch everything and tell it all to "go get em" - then I would expect mass chaos and much loss. If you take your time and be THE action - the Aircraft/Tank commander as well as the Captain and overall strategic mind - then you might find your enjoyment of the current game much higher. Its all about your play style - and what works. Nothing "wrong" with whatever style you choose - but one choice is much less rewarding within the scope of the game. That is excaserbated by the current AI.

[gunso 10]

I would like to suggest the option for player to jump in and command the island being attacked since the carrier will take a while to get there anyway.

So while the carrier is slowly moving to the island, player will have the option to go into time compression or move in real time while taking control of the island defense.

The island defenses have manta, walrus and turrets too so i think it's possible to implement this so you will get more action in this game rather than just biting your nails in the carrier hoping the enemy wont capture it before you arrived.

[Dajunka 10]

I wouldn't mind a pause key while giving commands to your units. Come to think about it, where is the pause key?

Edited April 19, 2012 by Dajunka

[Hawk Firestorm 10]

While the grahpics are good etc, the gameplay I find rather lackluster and below that of the orginal, rather than improving it.

Perhaps its because they are trying to go for a half way house so it can be ported to console I don't know.

But there's little depth to the gamplay as is at the moment which is a concern, many of the games orginal aspects have been overlooked that added to the strategic elements and the games framework needs alot more depth to it if its going to be a success I think, other than the send in the manta's blow this up send in walrus it is now.

Too much attention paid to the graphics no where near enough payed to the gameplay.

[Dajunka 10]

I remember carrier command as being a complex game, but that was then. Now it seems pretty basic, saying that I feel that it doesn't need anything else to be one hell of a addictive game. All that the devs need to do is make sure that everything that was in the original is also in this one, and all those things work to perfection........job done.

[Gazzareth 1]

But there's little depth to the gamplay as is at the moment which is a concern, many of the games orginal aspects have been overlooked that added to the strategic elements and the games framework needs alot more depth to it if its going to be a success I think, other than the send in the manta's blow this up send in walrus it is now.

You do realise that, in the original, any island (including defence) could be taken by a single Walrus with 3 missiles in well under 2 minutes. That part I feel is much improved, for me the lack of depth stems from the strategic decisions made by the enemy carrier as to where it goes, what it does. The original had that nearly spot on, on this it needs rewriting.....

G

Edited April 27, 2012 by Gazzareth
Corrected formatting

[Gonesolo 1]

You do realise that, in the original, any island (including defence) could be taken by a single Walrus with 3 missiles in well under 2 minutes. That part I feel is much improved, for me the lack of depth stems from the strategic decisions made by the enemy carrier as to where it goes, what it does. The original had that nearly spot on, on this it needs rewriting.....

G

I could do it with one Manta and bomb :cool:

[CaptainHaplo 1]

I could do it with one Manta and bomb :cool:

A manta with 7 aa missiles. Ignore CAP, target the CC, let every missile hit then kamikaze into the CC - it blew every time. Less than 30 seconds from launch to destruction.

[scareya 1]

A manta with 7 aa missiles. Ignore CAP, target the CC, let every missile hit then kamikaze into the CC - it blew every time. Less than 30 seconds from launch to destruction.

Interesting but expensive strategy - IMHO only suitable for the final phases of the 30+ island game when there is enough resource and production capability. But I am sure it fails completely with scramblers active since you won't reach the CC with the limited vehicle control range. So you have to fight the old-fashioned way at least on those islands. That's good enough for me.

[Gazzareth 1]

Interesting but expensive strategy - IMHO only suitable for the final phases of the 30+ island game when there is enough resource and production capability. But I am sure it fails completely with scramblers active since you won't reach the CC with the limited vehicle control range. So you have to fight the old-fashioned way at least on those islands. That's good enough for me.

That is for the original game - 64 islands, and replacing the Manta + Missiles was much "cheaper" than in the new version !!! No scramblers at all in that !!!

G

[scareya 1]

That is for the original game

Oh, I missed that one. Yes, in the original game this was a valid strategy. You're so right... :a:

---------- Post added at 14:26 ---------- Previous post was at 12:52 ----------

It would be rather hard to intercept it, that would be mostly luck... Remember, the detection range is very small.. it's the same as the telemetry range, as far as I can tell.

I agree. Hunting the barque will be supposedly something like a mission impossible - at least if the barque is moving directly from stockpile to the carrier as it does right now. There is also no urgent need to hunt it, it's easier (and more important anyway) to capture the enemy's stockpile before it can be moved to another island. Making the barque visible is therefore not really neccessary. It would add a nice touch to the game though.

This is a good point, and I like Gazzareth's idea about a speed penalty.

Same here. I think decreasing the speed of the barque with increasing distance is the simplest and yet most effective way to force player and AI keeping the stockpile close to the action. Great idea.

[I_Kill_DumKuntz 1]

I would like to suggest the option for player to jump in. and command the island being attacked since the carrier will take a while to get there anyway.

So while the carrier is slowly moving to the island, player will have the option to go into time compression or move in real time while taking control of the island defense.

The island defenses have manta, walrus and turrets too so i think it's possible to implement this so you will get more action in this game rather than just biting your nails in the carrier hoping the enemy wont capture it before you arrived.

Thats an awesome idea.

---------- Post added at 19:26 ---------- Previous post was at 19:13 ----------

If the original had 60 islands or so and that was over 20 years ago, why is there only going to be just over 30 now, i would have thought there would be over 120 lol

i use to be able to program the speed and height of a manta in autopilot i think, i cant see that now although im getting older and blinder, i want some to get to battle later than others but not have to fly around the world.

I like the idea of controlling the island or the carrier and its weapons and switching between the 2, while the carrier is near or away im not sure yet...

I cant see the long range pod for the manta, but i only looked a long time ago quickly

Deff wanna see stuff slowly rebuilt on the island after a battle

Multiplayer with option to be the island deffence your oponent carrier is attacking

Ill try V2 now and see if i can think of more

---------- Post added at 19:33 ---------- Previous post was at 19:26 ----------

I hope the rocket with the camera that shoots out the top of the carrier that lets you look down and designate targets and launch a nasty missile will be in the final, that will change the way battle occurs alot.

---------- Post added at 19:38 ---------- Previous post was at 19:33 ----------

There should be different game modes, like 'classic' and 'modern' it would be nice to have a perfect replica from my amiga days, but it would be nice to have alot of other extras that todays tech can provide, i would love to get out and have to use stealth if i liked to getabout and disarm shit, like destroying an enemy tank in bf3 with my repair torch for example

---------- Post added at 19:40 ---------- Previous post was at 19:38 ----------

A robot gets out....and can walkaround like on my behalf and perform duties, i forgot 'i' cant get out. Lol

---------- Post added at 19:41 ---------- Previous post was at 19:40 ----------

Torpedos would be nice. :)

---------- Post added at 19:44 ---------- Previous post was at 19:41 ----------

An option to designate a secondary task to a vehicle, should the first one succesful. Even a third assignment...

---------- Post added at 19:46 ---------- Previous post was at 19:44 ----------

Increase height for mantas for epic air battles like the game VIRUS from around the same time. I use to fly REALLY high shooting my nuts off and it was a hoot

---------- Post added at 19:48 ---------- Previous post was at 19:46 ----------

I like the repair lazer thingy its cool

---------- Post added at 19:51 ---------- Previous post was at 19:48 ----------

Be nice to see some enemy soldiers running about so i could cruzzz parst in my cool manta and take pot shots while im listening to emenem :)

---------- Post added at 19:57 ---------- Previous post was at 19:51 ----------

Laser designation like soflam stuff in bf3 would be awesome. Even like target with a manta, kill with a carrier missile for example. And yeah i know this aint bf3, i just like the tactical aspects this could add... Such as each laser target gets assigned an importance number. Each designation is assigned a file. and each file is given to your machines to perform the tasks together and in sequence of importance. All orchestrated from a cool hot red fully sick punked out recon manta designating stuff at the beginning. :)

---------- Post added at 20:00 ---------- Previous post was at 19:57 ----------

I an american footbalk game i played once there were a bunch of moves like a HAIL MARY and stuff you could program your team to do bith deffence and attack. it would be nice to see some well know war moves added in a menu and have designated units for example... Perform a hail mary on someones ass lol

[scareya 1]

If the original had 60 islands or so and that was over 20 years ago, why is there only going to be just over 30 now, i would have thought there would be over 120 lol

Do you remember the islands of the original Carrier Command? They were basically flat surfaces of rectangular shape with different sizes only. In Carrier Command Gaea Mission the islands seem to be handcrafted to greatly improve the looks and to make conquering quite demanding sometimes (steep cliffs, hidden command centers, etc.). I guess that's the reason for the limited amount.

Edited May 8, 2012 by ScareYa