Vaclav Havel dies age 75

[Tankbuster 1735]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16236393

The father of the modern Czech state and in many way, responsible for the Europe family we have today. We lost a great man.

His early life was dedicated to releasing the iron grip of communism and indeed, Soviet rule and he achieved that with his organisation Charter 77.

Latterly, he showed the former Soviet bloc states that it is indeed possible to transition a post 1st world war country into more sensible countries that better reflect their citizens without huge bloodshed. If only the Yugoslavians had a Vaclav Havel, we'd all be much better off.

I hope he receives the proper recognition as one of last century's great Europeans.

RIP, sir.

Edited December 18, 2011 by Tankbuster

[-martin- 10]

Hi Tankbuster,

I don't mean to celebrate anyones death but Vaclav Havel wasn't all that he seemed to be, yes he "fought against communism" (while everyone else got shot, except him), but he is also responsible for the decay that my country has slipped in to after during his reckless rule, he is responsible for selling state property to Western countries for extremely undervalued prices, he is responsible for allowing Communist criminals to get away UNPUNISHED and even become rich business men and owners of previously state owned businesses.

He wanted the US secretary of state to become Czech president after him... I had to leave my country because of the corruption and unfairness that he created, he was nothing more then a puppet set up by the "communists" and their Western allies to make sure that the communists stayed in power and got rich with their western friends.

As a human, I respect his death and hope that he rests in peace.

As a politic, he won't be missed. He was the Eastern European version of Ghadaffi.

No offence meant but I just wanted to leave my views on this since I come from there.

Best regards :smile:

[Tankbuster 1735]

It's cool Martin.

Thanks in part to him, you're in a democratic country and able to say such things.

I realise his presidency wasn't an unqualified success, but I maintain that the world, and the Czech republic is better for having him.

[-martin- 10]

It's cool Martin.

Thanks in part to him, you're in a democratic country and able to say such things.

I realise his presidency wasn't an unqualified success, but I maintain that the world, and the Czech republic is better for having him.

Well communism wasn't the best, Havel wasn't the best but he did do good things too, nothing in the world is perfect but at least now we can travel freely and buy what ever we want if we have the money. Back in the day it was hard to even get to the Soviet Union.

Anyway, all that is history now, no use to remember it now. I do apologise if I caused offence with my previous post as this wasn't the best place to say it. :o

Anyway, RIP Havel.

[maturin 12]

I don't mean to celebrate anyones death but Vaclav Havel wasn't all that he seemed to be, yes he "fought against communism" (while everyone else got shot, except him)

What do you mean, "everyone one got shot?"

A bunch of people got shot, and everyone except Havel stopped protesting out of fear and apathy.

but he is also responsible for the decay that my country has slipped in to after during his reckless rule, he is responsible for selling state property to Western countries for extremely undervalued prices, he is responsible for allowing Communist criminals to get away UNPUNISHED and even become rich business men and owners of previously state owned businesses.

You just described the process EVERY post-Communist country went through, without exception. To blame it all on one head of state, especially so poor a politician as Havel, in silly and very unfair.

he was nothing more then a puppet set up by the "communists" and their Western allies to make sure that the communists stayed in power

I've got nothing for this one. lol?

He was the Eastern European version of Ghadaffi.

This is an idiotic comparison and you know why. You come from a continent full of colorful political figures and I know you can do better than that.

[krzychuzokecia 710]

Firstly I want to say sorry for everyone who'll miss Vaclav Havel. Without doubts he was one of the most important politicians in modern Europe. He was also one of the greatest. Please, not forget that he was also an artist, author of many theater plays. RIP Vaclav Havel.

Second, Maturin, I don't know from where you are, but from our point of view - Central and Eastern Europe - it's not all black-and-white. People like Havel, or our Nobel prize winner: Walesa are symbols of communism fall, but in 90s they were active politicians and... Well, for many who believed them, they've just forget about ideas and went the easy way - get money and leave.

Walesa's presidency in Poland was the worst one in history (maybe apart from short presidency of communist's junta leader - Jaruzelski). Not only he allowed to sell many profitable factories to bankrupt companies for minimal stakes (like Warsaw FSO car factory which was sold to dying Daewoo), but he made deal with CIA to leave communist agents in government, and pay them extra, just to assure that they'll tell US what America wants to know about Soviet/Eastern Bloc military and intelligence (remember that USSR was still alive, just like Warsaw Pact!). Thanks to that these people are know one of the richest in Poland, and are running critical companies like televisions or energy providers. (From what I know Czechs didn't went into such deal and fired all their agents, know they have better intelligence than Poland, with 4 times smaller army)

Walesa is also known from the fact that he's trying to hide his collaboration with the regime. For short time during 70s (before all the "Solidarity" movement) he was gathering information for internal security agency, which was fighting with opposition. After short cooperation he refused to continue it - and it was OK, probably he was forced to collaborate and he wasn't as good as the regime thought. But when he was president he got all documents covering his cooperation, and... now these papers are gone. Many people say that if he'd say "Yes, I was a collaborator, but look, I did nothing!", society would understand, but because he's trying to hide it - he's hated for it. Search for "TW Bolek" on the net - there's much controversy around this case.

Because of that facts, many his colleagues from "Solidarity" union are now his political opponents. And many of former-regime activists see him as "one of the greatest Poles in history". He IS a symbol, but still - he lost much of his credibility (not to mention his sometimes offensive language used against his former friends).

I bet that there's the same with Havel in Czech Republic - great symbol, but tragic politician.

[maturin 12]

Well, for many who believed them, they've just forget about ideas and went the easy way - get money and leave.

Sure, but I don't think you can include Havel in the money-grabbing category. As I understand it, he spent his time in office lecturing about morality rather than building political consensus and making compromises with opponents.

Walesa's presidency in Poland was the worst one in history (maybe apart from short presidency of communist's junta leader - Jaruzelski).

Poland was in an enormous depression, which does tend to reflect badly on political leaders. But it wasn't a situation that any leader could have avoided.

Not only he allowed to sell many profitable factories to bankrupt companies for minimal stakes (like Warsaw FSO car factory which was sold to dying Daewoo),

Privatization was a racket across the board, but not just because of corruption. How the hell do you privatize a company when no one in the country has any money to buy it with? Czechoslovakia was better than other countries in this regard since they gave ordinary citizens vouchers for shares (imho), but the system wasn't sustainable.

but he made deal with CIA to leave communist agents in government, and pay them extra, just to assure that they'll tell US what America wants to know about Soviet/Eastern Bloc military and intelligence (remember that USSR was still alive, just like Warsaw Pact!). Thanks to that these people are know one of the richest in Poland, and are running critical companies like televisions or energy providers.

Hard to blame him for that when so many ex-bloc countries voted former Communist Party officials into power anyways.

Many people say that if he'd say "Yes, I was a collaborator, but look, I did nothing!", society would understand, but because he's trying to hide it - he's hated for it. Search for "TW Bolek" on the net - there's much controversy around this case.

Yep. Lots of courage at some times, less courage at others.

I bet that there's the same with Havel in Czech Republic - great symbol, but tragic politician.

I don't have much of an issue with that statement. But I think you have to be judicious with assigning blame in such a chaotic and hopeless situation. Absolutely nothing was going to prevent depression, corruption and bad privatization in that situation. If nothing else, Havel was too poor a politician to do all that with malicious intent.

[OMAC 254]

Uh-oh.

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2011/12/18/world/europe/20111218_600_havel-9.html

[krzychuzokecia 710]

Sure, but I don't think you can include Havel in the money-grabbing category. As I understand it, he spent his time in office lecturing about morality rather than building political consensus and making compromises with opponents.

Well, maybe my comparison of Havel to Polish politicians went to far here. TBH your's thoughts about his presidency are more-less mine. But all I wanted to say is because I saw how great people can fall in Poland I could understand why Martin was so pessimistic (at least) about Havel's presidency.

Our discussion about Walesa and Polish/Eastern European politics after fall of communism went to far from Havel's death topic. If you wish to continue, I could ask mods to move it into other, more appropriate, thread.

Once again:

RIP Vaclav Havel, we'll miss you :(