X: Rebirth

[x3kj 1247]

Thrusters are by design MUCH weaker than engine boosters.

On the same ship maybe, but a bigger ship mounts bigger thrusters/engines. Because those thrusters are not just for rotating, they are for deceleration as well. Therefore they have to scale with the mass equally - you can't have slow turning but good deceleration.

To accelerate in circular motion as the big fighter on the spot you only need to overcome inertia. That's it. If we assume a rotational acceleration of alpha=1rad/s² and the secondary thrusters on the edges of the cube it would need 2 thrusters of 22.8MN (=J2/d2) to achieve it. The small figher uses it's main engine, so it requires F1acc= J1/r = 10MN in tangential direction. However, to keep on the circular path you need to uphold the centrifugal force, which is Fc=m*omega² *r. That means, after 1 sek of acceleration (omega=1rad/s) the small fighter would need an additional Fc= 100t * (1rad/s)² * 100m = 10MN in radial direction. That means he needs 14.1MN main thrust after just 1 sek. After 2 sek it's 22.4MN already And the small figher is 40 times lighter.

And in SC and other games we are not talking about a mass difference of 40x when talking about heavy and light fighters. We are talking about 3 times at best. I only chose 40x to show how ridiculously big you could go and still not be significantly disadvantaged as the "guy in the center".

Light interceptors are useless, because they are outgunned and their maneuverability can't help them to gain the advantage in this situation. They can catch up because of higher speed, but getting closer is a death trap, because the enemy can always shoot backwards with full guns. I watched a vid of an elite dangerous player who encountered a transport that had guns. And had the exact problem i'm describing. Maneuvering not an option, and since the transport had high durability the firepower advantage of the players combat ship was not enough to kill it before beeing shredded.

Edited April 27, 2015 by Fennek

[Tonci87 163]

On the same ship maybe, but a bigger ship mounts bigger thrusters/engines. Because those thrusters are not just for rotating, they are for deceleration as well. Therefore they have to scale with the mass equally - you can't have slow turning but good deceleration.

To accelerate in circular motion as the big fighter on the spot you only need to overcome inertia. That's it. If we assume a rotational acceleration of alpha=1rad/s² and the secondary thrusters on the edges of the cube it would need 2 thrusters of 22.8MN (=J2/d2) to achieve it. The small figher uses it's main engine, so it requires F1acc= J1/r = 10MN in tangential direction. However, to keep on the circular path you need to uphold the centrifugal force, which is Fc=m*omega² *r. That means, after 1 sek of acceleration (omega=1rad/s) the small fighter would need an additional Fc= 100t * (1rad/s)² * 100m = 10MN in radial direction. That means he needs 14.1MN main thrust after just 1 sek. After 2 sek it's 22.4MN already And the small figher is 40 times lighter.

And in SC and other games we are not talking about a mass difference of 40x when talking about heavy and light fighters. We are talking about 3 times at best. I only chose 40x to show how ridiculously big you could go and still not be significantly disadvantaged as the "guy in the center".

Light interceptors are useless, because they are outgunned and their maneuverability can't help them to gain the advantage in this situation. They can catch up because of higher speed, but getting closer is a death trap, because the enemy can always shoot backwards with full guns. I watched a vid of an elite dangerous player who encountered a transport that had guns. And had the exact problem i'm describing. Maneuvering not an option, and since the transport had high durability the firepower advantage of the players combat ship was not enough to kill it before beeing shredded.

I was going for a much larger mass difference than what you describe, but I guess that thing wouldn´t classify as a fighter anymore, a corvette? Can small fighters be usefull in some other context?

[x3kj 1247]

I can only thing of striking unarmed targets, or other light/small/fast ships basically. If you are the bigger fish the rest is mostly just prey (concerning fighter crafts). As soon as a bigger fish then you enters the water, you better run away.

If we compare that to a planes-in-space mechanic using a small fighter could give you a big advantage, because maneuvering takes longer and you can outturn an enemy. As soon as you add maneuvering thrusters that allow you strafing in general the whole game completely changes. If you add newtonian flight physics (at least part of that) it changes even more.

You just need to take a look at planetside 2' s air combat mechanic. The Aircraft are VTOL/hover capable and can swivel their main engine downwards. What ended up happening is that the best A2A tactic was to hover and use your main engine power to "strafe" basically, throwing off the enemies aim while keeping shooting at them. Players who chose to fly it like a normal plane hopelessly lost against someone who used the hover tactic. And i have no doubt that this will happen in SC as well. Because flying like a plane in space ("cinematic style", like in movies and cutscene shots) is a big dissadvantage over "hovering"/ using maneuvering thrusters while facing each other.

In this game, the "bomber" or "ground strike aircraft" has a very hefty nose armament and a belly gun. Realizing this, skilled players startet using the hover tactic to point the belly turret at enemy fighters to shoot them down while at the same time trying to get them into the forward cannon firing arc, turning it into a deadly anti air platform that only the skilled fighter pilots where able to defeat (at least when i played, might have all changed by now). It wasn't how the devs intended it to be initially, but that's what ended up happening for the top skill players

Edited April 27, 2015 by Fennek

[Tonci87 163]

I didn´t play SC yet so I don´t know how close to real the flight phsics are, but SC will, eventually, feature Capital ships? Could small fighters be a good way to deliver Torpedos? I imagine not since the game has lasers...

[x3kj 1247]

SC doesnt have real physics. Top speed for example is limited to ww1 fighterspeeds and lasers have very limited speed (Movie laser blasters basically) and limited range. They will have capital ships. There's a "Bomber ship" for delivering anti-capital torpedoes. I'm pretty sure they will go with movie-style capitalships, the means they have incredibly weak thrusters for their size so movement, acceleration and topspeed will be very slow etc, instead relying on turrets.

That doesnt change the fact that the maneuverability of the fighters will make the game twitch-shooter-eque in case of dogfights (like it's already the case for planetside 2 aircrafts). Many players say they wanna play with HOTAS except it makes no sense for exactly this reason. To utilize the system you need 2 joysticks basically (1 for strafing, 1 for rotation) and pedals (mainthrust forward/braking). Yet, you will still find it difficult to compete with mouse and keyboard players, since exact precision is required when aiming and for that a mouse is always better. Maneuvering with digital input (keyboard) also requires less efford and allows changes in movement way quicker.

For idle flying joystick may be nice, but fighting in a fighter craft? mouse+keyboard will be king.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Fennek