Realism VS. Arcade style fun

[nightsta1ker 10]

Hello everyone, I am new to this forum and this is my first post.

Just a little background before I get started: I am a real world helo pilot/mechanic with 10 years military experience. I am also an avid gamer/simmer. I have been a fan of ArmA since it's inception and was a fan of OFP before that.

I have always been intrigued by the flyable helicopters in ArmA and was hoping that more focus would be put on flight model and cockpit details in the future. Needless to say I find the prospect of what Take On Helicopters could become very exciting. I can tell you that this game is generating alot of interest, curiosity, and the usual skepticism in the helicopter (and helicopter simming) communities. There is a definite lack of helicopter games out there. There always has been. They are difficult to fly, the missions are widely varied, and unless you get to blow some shit up, most people are not interested. Historically, helicopter games, when they come out, are either too intense for players to enjoy unless they are hardcore simmers (DCS Blackshark comes to mind) or they are way too arcade (which may sell better to the masses, but severely disapoints the helicopter community that has been hoping for a holy grail for decades).

I see this possibly being a good balance of both. I am definitely hoping for extremely realistic flight dynamics and mission activities. Of course, making the game too realistic will definitely be a turn off to the majority of gamers. The solution to this would be a sliding scale of realism ranging from ArmA like docile behavior to the extreme touchiness of real helicopters.

Another concern I am seeing in the helicopter community is your visual models. It is clear that you are making good visual models with lots of eye candy, however, several prominent flaws in the models have alot of people worried about the authenticity of the game. It has been discussed that perhaps this is done on purpose, to make it clear to consumers that this is a game and not a simulator. I would be curious to hear Bohemia's take on all this, and I know alot of other Heli-simmers are very curious as well.

Just know that there is a sizeable community of knowledgable pilot/simmers out there that are willing to provide feedback, support and would be more than happy to beta test. If this game comes out with a high level of realism, you are guaranteed to sell some copies in our arena.

[Dwarden 1125]

...

Hello and welcome to forums,

it the details sticky is link to interview with TOH creative lead Jay Crowe

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=116966

which may answer some of Your questions ...

of-course for more answers You need wait till we reveal more :)

[nightsta1ker 10]

Thanks for that, I have indeed read the article. It gave an impression, but of course, we (the consumers) have heard all the promises of how awesome a game is going to be only to be let down many many times. I have alot of faith in Bohemia Interactive, and I think if anyone can pull this type of project off it would be you guys. I just wanted to give voice to the concerns and desires of the sizeable helicopter community out there. It is very exciting to see something like this on the horizon. We just don't want to watch it fall short.

[Panthro 10]

we need a more realistic flight model and we need a bare bones startup sequence imo..... (say about 5 steps? ) for ArmA2 this would keep every tom dick and harry out of the sky and keep mainly the useful guys in the air i.e. the guys who will coordinate with you and help out. I know its not much but a 5 button/menu action that requires you to preform it in the correct order would raise the bar and increase immersion/realism a bit too.

I figure start up could be.

1) battery on

2) fuel on

3) APU start

4) engine start

5) kill APU (or watch fuel disappear really fast)

but I like the idea of take on helicopters esp if the ArmA2 flight model gets updated to a more realistic on as a result ....even if its just a bit.

I will probably buy the sim when its out because I will want to try a few things in it. I hope Bohemia support more controllers properly in it

because I cant even use the full range of movement on the throttle of my ThrustMaster Warthog or even all of the buttons/switches.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Panthro
spelling

[dale0404 5]

I have not got a clue about flying helicoptors apart from pressing "Q" and "Z" and using my mouse for direction!

However, I do fly planes in FSX and have done since FS2004 came out. Hopefully something along the lines of pressing Ctrl + E to turn the engines on etc or give people the option to go through the complete startup sequence rather than using a short cut.

[nightsta1ker 10]

@Dale: That's why I think there should be a sliding scale. People all have different levels of interest and patience. As a real pilot, I don't mind going through a completely realistic startup sequence, in fact, I would prefer having to flick ten switches and hold the starter untill 15% N1 then apply some throttle and monitor the turbine temp for a spike (hot start) etc.... Starting a Jetranger takes about 5 minutes from cold and dark to 100% ready for take off. Alot of people will want to just spin up and go fly. I am sure BIS will take this all into consideration.

[Daniel 0]

I'm glad they're pushing the co-op aspect. Spending five minutes setting up helicopters is much more fun when there's a bit of banter involved.

[.Taffy 10]

I have not got a clue about flying helicoptors apart from pressing "Q" and "Z" and using my mouse for direction!

However, I do fly planes in FSX and have done since FS2004 came out. Hopefully something along the lines of pressing Ctrl + E to turn the engines on etc or give people the option to go through the complete startup sequence rather than using a short cut.

A bit off topic but Dale, I always found that when you don't have a stick in ArmA it can also be effective to use the WASD keys for direction and then activate 'freelook' (2xAlt) so that the mouse moves the head for increased situational awareness.

[FredAirland 14]

Hello everyone,

I am not an helicopter pilot, but I have a lot of experience in helicopter aerodynamics (I wrote a physics engine for helicopters for FSX which is widely used and free at www.Hovercontrol.com)

From my experience it is not that difficult to do a physics engine for helicopters that pleases beginners and experts alike (this is kind of what I did), just a matter of dampening torques or stabilizing the beast a bit, I could have even done it easier than that if I wished.

Regarding startup procedures I agree those could be optional for more impatient people or more complex, I believe that for simple startup Search & Rescue 4 did it right (if I remember less than 4-5 clicks)

Since I was planning to do an helicopter simulator myself some day I am very interested in the moddability of it. I guess it will be... Will you be able to modify physics too ?

And if you need any help in physics (these can be nasty...) send me a pm....

Bye

Fred

[nightsta1ker 10]

Fred makes it sound easier than it is (I have been doing a modest job in helping him test the flight physics). His program is the best thing you can do to a default or add on helicopter for FSX (with one exception). The best thing out there so far would have to be the Dodo Simulations Bell 206BIII. That would be a good model to gauge realism by. Of course, due to limitations imposed by FSX, not every relevent detail can accurately be simulated and even the Dodo 206 is not completely authentic. That's why a clean slate like this is so exciting. With a fresh physics engine to play with, there is a possibility BIS might get things right.

In any case all of this is sheerly speculation on my part as it has been made clear that BIS is not discussing it's plans in any detail yet. We will just have to wait.

[LeftSkidLow 1]

I'm not really a huge fan of the hardcore switch flipping on PC games/sims, I'm much more concerned about a realistic flight model and ease of access for the average player to get in the air and start practicing and having fun. I know there is a niche of players that would get a hard on from being able to tie the blades down and remove pitot tube covers, but I don't think it's a smart move if the game is to be financially successful.

Nightstalker, try the Dreamfoil 206 III for X-plane, its pretty similar to the dodosim but I think it's a little better flight model because of x-plane.

By the way, is that your 300 in the picture? I don't fly anymore but most of my time was in C's and CBi's.

[royaltyinexile 175]

...

Hi, and welcome to the forums!

I see this possibly being a good balance of both. I am definitely hoping for extremely realistic flight dynamics and mission activities. Of course, making the game too realistic will definitely be a turn off to the majority of gamers.

Yes, we're looking carefully at that balance, and aiming to convey the experience of flying helicopters in a way that just wasn't achievable with the A2 platform; obviously, we're having to add a lot more complexity and features.

Walking that line is a difficult task. We built these concerns into our analysis, and set out strategies that work towards mitigating the risks poses by being either 'too accessible', 'too realistic', or not enough of either to satisfy anyone.

In part, this can be handled in the flight-model, in gameplay, in tutorials, and in making decisions about where we set our stall in saying 'this is what flying helicopters is about in this game'. I suppose the success of this relates, in part, to another of your points.

Just know that there is a sizeable community of knowledgeable pilot/simmers out there that are willing to provide feedback, support and would be more than happy to beta test.

That's definitely on our agenda. We're well aware of the passion and knowledge tied up within both these forums and the broader heli/heli-sim community.

While it's obviously too early to get into precise plans, I would say that I'd be very surprised if we missed the opportunity to garner some really useful feedback. We're on track to provide more information as development continues. We've already noticed a growing list of questions...

Best,

RiE

[4 IN 1 0]

Here is the Idea RiE: make sure that as much things can be mod as possible, because if we find that we need more hardcore switch filpping fun, we could just mod it so that we wont end up bitching and whining on the forum:p

[samb 15]

Hi everyone. I am a huge fan of BI, I have bought OFP as well as both Arma products (well Arrowhead is the only one I missed) pretty much the same day it showed on stores and I'm having great time playing it. I always played sniper class because of the realism no other game could give me: bullet drop, wind compensation, target move compensation etc. (not to mention finally being usefull not only while shooting). As great as the series has been so far, none of the factors I mentioned were correctly implemented in vannila game (wind compensation didn't exist at all) and were introduced by community.

All the flying stuff in Your games always had very simplistic physics and very limited avionics modeling. Even such basic things like position of default eyepoint was not_so_good for flying helicopters. Helicopters are propably the only aspect of Your games that has yet to see any kind of well made community developed game improvement.

I believe there might be two reasons- 1 it is difficult to make them (either because engine limitations, or knowledge required/ complexity involved); 2 lack of interest from players.

1- Take On Helicopters if approached right by You might reduce difficulty a lot as the helicopter oriented game is easier to modify for helicopters related improvements than ArmA series. There are bunch of guys around FSX community (I am talking about Hovercontrol mainly, I'll come to it later on) who can and will make things more realistic if given a chance, assuming TOH is worth it, no matter difficulty involved (just look at HTR for FSX!).

2 If player is not interested in helicopters he will buy Arma any way as it has other features desired by him. If player is interested in helicopters he won't buy Arma and will go for TOH if it is better than FSX for him (and it is not that difficult, proper physics can be made with little attention to it, graphics are not the main concern and are easy to surpass FSX as FSX it is already dated product, and interesting missions such as SAR, firefighting or simply spraying the field with pesticides are pretty much non existent in FSX and can be made possible even in non helicopter oriented ArmA).

TOH can draw both hard core sims and arcade type of players if it has complex physics (sic!). It is easy to tweak down complexity/ difficulty of behaviour by releveant sliders in options menu than to make arcade game behaviour realistic by modding it. Arcade interested players could switch over to a simmulation if given such a chance in TOH, while simulation oriented players already had a chance to try one of 100's arcade products, and it they didn't get interested in it so far, then -no offence- but arcade TOH wouldn't make any difference and they won't buy it. It involves both flying behaviour and avionics implementation.

Summaring- realistic, hc civilian helicopter simmulation is something we are missing for a long time now, and as it can please every potential customer is a way to go. Modding capability including physics departament is a must (in a game industry history developers have yet to make a product that could not be improved for some of the players by modding it). Realistic avionics are a must ie as simmulators contrary to arcade games are imposible to fly without using gauges. Cool missins are a must to keep non hc players intereste in flying, and will be another factor drawing FSX simmers from FSX to TOH. Please note, that SAR series had many missions based on "fly- pickup- drop to hospital- return to base" scheme and was still being enjoyed by many of us!

At the end I would like to mention, that I'm a FSX guy for quiet a while now and I am well aware of it's limitations, and I was waiting for a product that could permanently replace it for a long, long time now. I am sure there are more guys like me, I know of many on hovercontrol boards, but there are so many more! You really have a chance to make a difference on the helicopter sims market, please don't blow it (for our all sake;))! Also You have Fred who developed Helicopter Total Realism (it's like a FSX 2.0 upgrade for helicopter simmers) on Your side. You really have all the opportunites to make it big with TOH.

Thanks, Sam

PS Thanks for Dwarden for encouraging Hovercontrol members to share our view here. You can blame him for my post;). And sorry for any mistakes, English is not my native language.

[mmaker 10]

Maybe offtopic but how much better is hovercontroll to orginal heli in flight sim? Because i thought flying heli in ms flight sim was very boring and strange. However flying heli in arma2 is really fun, so im looking forward to this. I only hope that you can change from real life mode and to more easier mode BUT also that it got HUGE sandbox :)

[msimon 10]

For me if your putting this much detail and time into TOH then blow it on arcade style controls would be bad for me in my opinion, it would be much better to give the choice of both realism switch flipping and the arcade style get up and go type thing.

But for me it has to be button pressing and switch flipping and all sorts for a game with this much detail already put in.

[Panthro 10]

I cant imagine that they would exclude basic start up mode and noob physics

but there has to be no way in hell they would choose not to have the realistic mode too.

to me the real question will be how well will they scale it up and how well will the game

teach in realistic things like the startup?

[nightsta1ker 10]

@Leftskidlow:

I agree with you on not wanting it to be TOO over done. But... once again. Sliding scale. Different levels of realism, from ArmA-ish to hard core switch flipping. Try and please a wider audience. I would be happy with a Master switch on, hold the starter and crack the throttle, with some switches and buttons for radios and lights etc. (Speaking of radios, I wonder if there will be ATC?).

I do have X-plane and the Dreamfoil 206. I will actually be beta testing Fred Conex's R-22 and S300 when he gets to the point where he's doing flight dynamics. He's a very talented guy. That said, his 206 is still not as accurate as the Dodo 206 in several respects. However, X-plane allows you to do some things you can't in FSX even with superior programming skills, like autorotations.

To answer your question, I rent it from a flight school called Airwork LLC. They have schools in Washington and Nevada. And its not an S300 actually, its a H269 (same thing, just older).

@Royaltyinexile:

Thank you. That was very informative and comforting without giving too much away. Just knowing that you guys plan to get feedback from the community gives me a warm fuzzy. You can't please everyone. But finding out what really matters to the people who will be buying your product is very important. I can almost gaurantee that the VAST majority of your product buyers will be people who want a realistic experience. Flying helos is not easy. It took me more than a couple minutes to learn to hover (more like 5 hours, and I learn fast). Anyone that is not ready for that kind of challenge should not pick up the game. This is supposed to be a game about the challenge of flying helicopters. I do beleive there should be a sliding scale, but I have to emphasize to everyone that catering to the masses is not going to sell this game. If anything it will hurt it tremendously.

Finding a good balance of fun is important. Like anything that is complex and challenging, that line can be thin. There has been more than one moment in my real flying career where I wanted to throw my headset down and say "this is too f*cking hard! I quit!", but I didn't. And I enjoy it more and more as I learn how to do different things. This game even on easy mode, may turn out to be too hard for most people. So where should you put your focus? To me, that answer is pretty clear.

Edited April 5, 2011 by nightsta1ker

[marcomio 0]

Some suggestions for the upcoming "Take On Helicopter" -simulation:

What about making a difference to other flightsims out there? My suggestion would be the oportunity to enter/leave the aircraft and walk around e. g. for preflight-check like in real life. In this case, you can kill two birds with one stone - getting more realism by applying features like inspecting your aircraft before take off as real life pilots has to do so every day and making a nice difference to other flightsims without the chance to leave the plane for some activities. There, the pilots are always glued to their seats, they never leave the seats or the plane - not even for visiting the lavatory (and that during an tranksatlantic flight...:butbut:). As an civil flightsim, it has not to cover the wide range of different walk/drive/fly/shoot -abilities as already shown by the OFP/ARMA-Engine in a very well done manner.

Personally, I like (and use) both: The realitic flightsims and the great ARMA-Combatsim. Now it would be nearly perfect to have a civil flightsim with the players ability to walk around outside the aircraft - maybe for solving a problem or fulfil a given task. In other words, don't cut off this capability already provided by the engine. Make both - and many people happy (including myself). :D

Walkable areas with enterable buildings only need to exist in some special locations/parts of the scenery (like airfields, hangars etc.), which are of interest for the missions. I think, this aspect should be taken in consideration.

[purepassion 22]

@nightsta1ker

this thread might be interesting for you

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=107995&page=32

[samb 15]

@marcomio

Walking out of the aircraft will be possible.

Sam

[nightsta1ker 10]

Some suggestions for the upcoming "Take On Helicopter" -simulation:

What about making a difference to other flightsims out there? My suggestion would be the oportunity to enter/leave the aircraft and walk around e. g. for preflight-check like in real life. In this case, you can kill two birds with one stone - getting more realism by applying features like inspecting your aircraft before take off as real life pilots has to do so every day and making a nice difference to other flightsims without the chance to leave the plane for some activities. There, the pilots are always glued to their seats, they never leave the seats or the plane - not even for visiting the lavatory (and that during an tranksatlantic flight...:butbut:). As an civil flightsim, it has not to cover the wide range of different walk/drive/fly/shoot -abilities as already shown by the OFP/ARMA-Engine in a very well done manner.

Personally, I like (and use) both: The realitic flightsims and the great ARMA-Combatsim. Now it would be nearly perfect to have a civil flightsim with the players ability to walk around outside the aircraft - maybe for solving a problem or fulfil a given task. In other words, don't cut off this capability already provided by the engine. Make both - and many people happy (including myself). :D

Walkable areas with enterable buildings only need to exist in some special locations/parts of the scenery (like airfields, hangars etc.), which are of interest for the missions. I think, this aspect should be taken in consideration.

You should read this: http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/03/31/exclusive-interview-bohemia-interactive-talks-take-on-helicopters/ He states at one point that players not only will be able to get out of the aircraft and move around, but in some cases will be REQUIRED to by the mission scenario. Seem promising? I must say, I am very excited.

[marcomio 0]

@ SamB and @nightsta1ker:

Thanks for info, must have skimmed to fast over the text . So only thing I can say at the moment: Consider this Game bought! :ok:

[thermalburn 10]

I wouldnt mind if it has scalable realism, but i do hope it has an EXTREMELY realistic setting as well.

I'm planning on starting work on my helo licence soon (i already have fixed wing), and possibly even joining the military to fly.

As of now however, the only helicopter sim i can practice on has been DCS Blackshark. As awesome as that game is, unless i'm going to be flying the Hokum in real life, it's not a 100% useful training tool; considering it's also a coaxial rotor whereas most are dual rotor thus altering much of the performance and handling characteristics.

I do want it to be appealing to the masses (because i got into hardcore flight simming through arcade like games) yet i do want it to satisfy the needs of those who want realism.

Hopefully we can get a full and unique start up procedure for each. Also i really do hope they include the TH-55, just because that's the helo i'm gonna be training it; it would be great practice...

[whisper 0]

I don't think they intend to fully implement avionics and button pushing in cockpit.