Recruiting scripters to help create very realistic damage and wounding system.

[Tom1 10]

I am creating a wounding system modification that is very realistic and very simple and also more capable of providing accurate results than any other system currenlty out there.

The main ideas of this mod are very simple and how they can be achieved is very simple and achievable, unfortunatly, I have the knowledge on how rounds will work and wound/penetrate body armour, but I don not have the knowledge on ho to script this and change configs. I am looking for people with knowledge on the subject who are willing and capable of helping me. When it comes to people who know about terminal ballistics and penetration, I have plenty of friends and associates capable and willing to help (more people cant hurt though) although we are uncapable of coding this modification to a high standard. I am very eager to learn how to code this modification so I will contribute to the best of my abilities as soon as I have the knowledge on how to code this :)

It will accuratly simulate wounds to the body with many different ammunition types (m855a1 5.56x45mm ball round, m995 AP 5.56x45mm round, mk.318 open tip soft core 5.56x45mm round, 7N6 5.45x39mm, and much much more, all the current arma rounds AND rounds in active service in real life).

It will also simulate a truely unique and realistic simulation of body armour using real life data and actually determaining what a round will do to armour.

It will bypass the restrictive hit point system BIS currenly has in use by configering rounds to no longer do any damage on impact hit point wise and do their damage via bleeding, pain and also a special condition called a 'kill shot'. A kill shot is determained in by a few variables (which i have for each round) and works by simulating a shot to the heart or CNS (although not an instant kill to the heart in real life it will put them out of action extremely quickly and they will be dead within seconds so there is no point of going into detail, heart shots will kill in arma.) without having to try and determain the exact hit location as this is very hard to do in arma.

This mod will provide excelent results that are far more realistic than any other mod with a seperate wounding system, unfortunatly I was planning on working wih ACE and after making contact I begun to gather information but recently it has become clear that ACE cannot change their forumla to determain the effects of any round. Unfortunatly this means wounding effects like bleeding, incapacitation and unconsciousness will have to be started from scratch, but this will also open doors for improvements to the realism of this new medical system.

While this method of determaining wound effects is far more simple and accurate (therefore more realistic results) than a general formula used for all rounds, this will mean creating forulas and scripts for each round will be very time consuming, but with the knowledge I share with a couple of my associates (and friends :) ) on how a bullet actually works inside different types of tissue, what it does, what this will cause, how it penetrates different materials and what is left of the projectile after penetrating these materials and how that will perform differently against different types of tissue compared to how they would normally perform if they had not been deformed after penetrating a material. (in english, damage caused to soft targets, penetration to stuff like body armour or windshields and 'after armour damage' if you may :p ) only a very small amount of variables will need to be accounted for in these rond specific formulas, the main variables are

1. The round itself

2. The velocity the round was travelling when it impacted

3. hit location (head, arm, upper and lower body, legs. Upper and lower body possible (not extremely accurate results but can be achieved I am told by a member of ACE wounds... When he has finished his method I shall get from him and use in this mod, he seems very close to finding a way and is a talented coder who seems to never sleep so shouldn't be too far away. :) )Also side, front and back shots are a variable, can be determained by checking position of shooter in relation to position of 'victim'.

That is about it, obvioulsy there are many other factors as to how a round will perform in different types of material (soft targets, body armour etc) although this does not need to be included in the formula, as that would lead to not only massivly generalised results not true to life, but it would also be completely unnessecary to pu into a formula when the effects of a round at different velocities against different targets is already known, therefore oly the round, target and velocity should be variables in arma. Obviously, the is a lot of work to be done in terms of research into different rounds, I am very passionate about this topic in real life and will happily get all required variables and information on the ammunition (unless someone else workin with me is as passionate as I am and would like to help.) while others could work on the actual scripting and configs (I am currenlty inexperienced in coding although am very eager to learn and contribute just as much as anyone helping with this project.).

Someone who knows how to make conditions such as bleeding, unconsciousness and incapacitation et cetera and one who also knows how to edit configs would be greatly appriciated, although anyone interested in this project is very welcome to jump on board.

I have currently a document about 6 or so pages long explaining in detail (yet very simple and easy to understand) specfics on bleeding, pain, unconsciousness, wounding effects uniuque to different hit locations (legs, arms etc) and various types of treatment as well. I will modify it slightly before posting (i recently sent to ACE dev who told me the angle of impact of a bullet cannot be determained, only the direction of shooter) and hopefully everyone will enjoy and hop on board to help :)

Edited March 28, 2011 by Tom1

[sickboy 13]

This mod will provide excelent results that are far more realistic than any other mod with a seperate wounding system, unfortunatly I was planning on working wih ACE and after making contact I begun to gather information but recently it has become clear that ACE cannot change their forumla to determain the effects of any round. Unfortunatly this means wounding effects like bleeding, incapacitation and unconsciousness will have to be started from scratch, but this will also open doors for improvements to the realism of this new medical system

Who did you contact about this? Do you mean some ticket? (Could you link it / share your DH username?)

Sandiford is working on it, http://dev-heaven.net/issues/17316

http://dev-heaven.net/projects/ace-mod2/repository/show?rev=feature%2Fsys_wounds_sandi

http://dev-heaven.net/projects/ace-mod2/repository/revisions/77ecb2ace860af873d32582bbfa593fb32e02ec9/diff

BushTucka I guess :D Yay for different nicknames ;)

Edited March 28, 2011 by Sickboy

[Tom1 10]

rounds i currently have almost finished gathering all required variables (wounding effects at different velocities, different locations and versus different types of armour) for are:

5.56x45mm NATO round:

m855a1 EPR - used by US army, enhanced performance round. More reliable fragmentation at lower velocities and enhanced penetration due to steel penetrator.

m995 AP round- used mainly by special forces in m249 SAWs for better penetration against barriers but has proven to be very effective against body armour in tests. Will become main round of NATO forces in Chernarus fighting against russians as ball ammo is ineffective against body armour worn both by USMC and Russian forces.

mk.318 - open tip soft core projectile, used by USMC, mimics wounding patterns of those seen in hollow point rounds although it passes the Hague convention rules and regulations. Also barrier blind and improved trajectory and accuracy although this will not be modelled (unless we end up with a massive team of experienced coders who chew through the data i give and want more :)) Will have no effect on hard armour plates though. Ball rounds like the m855a1 will eventually shatter hard armour plates at high velocities.

mk.262 open tip match ammunition. Very good terminal performance.

5.45x39mm:

7N6 AKA poison bullet, named because it tumbles twice inside the human body and can create (if given room) two wound cavities and it will often stray off-course and be lost inside the target (in soviet-afghan war afghan medics could not find projectile in wounded and the patient was rumoured to die of lead poisening although this has also been said to be incorret as a bullet cannot cause lead poisoning,) in the short term the round can cause some serious damage and bleeding and although the temporary cavities it creates are generally no pwerful enough to damage or disrupt most tissue (organs and muscle, excluding the liver) they can still cause nerve damage and effect the CNS (similar to the theory behind hydrostatic shock although hydrostatic shock has not been proven) and the cavity will still cause major bleeding.

7N10 enhanced penetration round. Steel penetrator and reduced air space redeuce the tumbling effects of this round although it can penetrate materials including body armour more effectivly. (similar penetration vs level III SAP plates as m855a1. Will not penetrate generally BUT at high speeds can and will eventually shatter the ceramic plates)

7N22 AP round. Similar to the 7N10 in the sense it trades penetration for terminal performance. This round has even better penetration than the 7N10 but even worse terminal effects.

7N24 super AP round. Comparable penetration to the m995 5.56x45mm due to its tungsten carbide penetrator. Even worse termianl performance than the 7N22 though so this is still a trade off.

7.62x51 and 7.62x39 ammo will be worked on as soon as intermediate rifle cartridges have been polished up.

5.8x42mm Chinese ammunition is being looked into because VME is making a very high quality PLA mod. DBP87 ammunition (standard ball ammo) is rumored to have better penetration than the m855a1 and the 7N10 rounds although there is limited proof of this. (I.e. no data or test results provided to back this up) although rounds with increased penetration generally trade terminal effectiveness. This is likley due to chinese mass production and usage of cheaper materials in order to create ammo. For example DBP87 ammo was never intended to be classified as AP but steel is cheaper to use thn other materials so the round is rumored to have some AP traits.

---------- Post added at 20:48 ---------- Previous post was at 20:33 ----------

@sickboy i made contact with sandiford but he informed me that unfortunatly ACE will not be changing their formula used to determain damage done. Sandi is working however on a very promising way of determaining the hit location of a round.

I would like to clear things up first of all just to ensure there are no misunderstandings. I believe that ACE has a very good system and I use and will continue to use ACE as my mod of choice, I do not believe even one percent that ACE is 'doing it all wrong' either, I beleive that it is possible to go into more detail with wounds and this is a project I would like to work on to achieve the full hardcore realism that my clan and I (AAF- Australian Armed Forces) just have not seemed to have found to the full extent we would like in any other mods so like you advised me to do on DH, I am 'picking up the scripting axe' and have decided to work on my own project :)

DH username: BushTucka.

Rye (from dev heaven) and I have gotten into contact with sandiford over skype and are sharing our knowledge of terminal ballistics with him to take the load off researching so he could focus purley on coding and other things. Although I plan to work on my own project seperate to ACE, I still plan to share my knowledge and assist sandiford with research on ammunition whenever possible.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Tom1

[sickboy 13]

Cheers mate for clearing that up, confusion came mostly from the unknown nick :P

Good luck mate :)

[Tom1 10]

Thanks mate, you too :)

[kremator 1065]

Sounds like a worthwhile project Tom1 .... good luck.

If you need a beta tester (cos I can't script for toffee!) then ask!

[Gunter Severloh 4070]

Hey Tom great ideas,

for some examples of a system check out the wounds file from SLX seen here:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=84968&highlight=SLX.+hpp

[Tom1 10]

cheers mate

[Tom1 10]

pistol ammo will also be fixed pretty fast. Easy to get info for because the majority of rounds (All pistol rounds AFAIK but keeping my windows open :p) will not penetrate hard armour. Soft armour is probably easier to model and I have some info on pistols just ling around anyway :)

If i want this to work with ace, but I would like to work off of BIS's health system would i just remove the ace_sys_wounds.pbo from ACE (or make a seperate folder called ACE2 with no wounds pbo and run instead) or would i have to do some complicated scripting?