Tanks are really unrealistic

[dm 9]

Here's a small chart of the gradient tests-

M1A1- 16 km/h (10mph)

Bradley- 14 km/h (9 mph)

Hummer- 64 km/h (40 mph)

Top-class marathon runners do about 20 km/h (12 mph) on the flat, so the M1A1 was only slightly slower than that on the steepish gradient, which doesn't sound too bad to me.

Joggers do about 10 km/h (6 mph)

What was the length of the gradient you drove up, and what was the height difference between the start and the end? (getposASL at the start and end of the slope you drove up). That way we can calculate the grade of the slope and see if its right.

As I posted before, an M1 (and pretty much all military vehicles) can cope with a 60% grade (31 degrees), but it will only go up it at 4 mph. At 10% (5 degrees) it will do 17mph. But then again, from the screenshots that slope looks a little more than 5 degrees, so its already too fast!

[Millenium7 0]

holy crap to anyone who thinks the current implementation of speeds is accurate. Guys.... I own a 650cc dirt bike, so for now lets just concentrate on the bikes/quads in the game

Want to have a guess what my uphill speed is on a 30 degree slope? 140kph. On a flat surface? 160kph

Uphill speed in arma2? about 70kph I believe

Why does Arma2 suffer from a massive speed drop off, whereas in reality its a very minor speed drop? torque to weight, NOT horsepower to weight

I'll give you another example, a 250cc dirt bike producing exactly the same horsepower will also have approx the same acceleration speed in a drag race (little faster due to less weight) but it will have a much lower top speed, and as soon as you add any additional weight such as climbing an incline, it's speed drops massively whereas my big torquey engine just keeps on powering along.

Why is this? well horsepower is how quickly you hit a wall, torque is how far you push the wall once you hit it

Stop comparing horsepower, an abrams only produces around 1500hp, but it makes a whopping 3800ft-lb of torque. Compared to a veyron making 1000hp it only makes 922ft-lb of torque. Huge huge huge difference in usable power. Obviously the abrams also weighs a crapload more, but it isn't gonna slow to a crawl on a minor incline. Put the veyron engine in the abrams and it'll barely move, soon as it hits a pebble it'll stall. Do the opposite and the veyron will climb a 45 degree gradient and barely lose any top speed

Edited March 26, 2011 by Millenium7

[dm 9]

Obviously the abrams also weighs a crapload more, but it isn't gonna slow to a crawl on a minor incline.

Said it twice already, maybe third time it will sink in: the M1 Abrams is only capable of 17 mph up a 5 degree incline.

[pooroldspike 129]

Incidentally here's the location of my gradient tests, the slope is about 4 kms north of Loy Manara airfield on the Takistan map-

[DaveP 66]

I am by all means not an expert in tank related stuff and I am a total Armanoob still but i have few questions regarding tanks in A2 that puzzle me.

Why is the drivers view always the same weird small unmovable "periscope-window" within black background? Shouldnt different tanks have different viewports and whatnot? And shouldnt in some tanks this viewport/slit have a small range of movement? Like here in PR:

Now in A2 if you are the driver, your view is so limited and if you want to look a bit to the side, you have to turn the whole tank. Though in some tanks you can "Turn out" and get a slightly better view. Btw when turning out as a T-34 driver, the drivers hatch is made from super low quality textures for me. Is this on purpose or did i miss some video option to enhance this?

Shouldn't there be some other viewport/periscope/rearview camera for modern tank driver with thermals and such. Or have I just not found them yet in-game. Like here in PR:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HohC6sU1-Q

Why all tank commanders and gunners can zoom in when afaik this was not possible in e.g. T-34? And is it just me or does every tank commander have the same periscope view-thingy regardless which tank they use? And why is there no binoculars for the commander when he is out of the hatch? Or is there?

And using 3rd person camera is not a solution for tank driving. I don't even get it why there is a such a thing in a simulator. Feels like cheating when using it and it is a huge immersion killer anyways.

Ps. is there some Tank addon mods that i should check out?

Back in the days of Operation Flashpoint fully modelled interiors were made for most armoured vehicles, mitigating this. Unfortunately production budgets probably meant some corners had to be cut in later titles, and this was one of those corners

[dm 9]

Incidentally here's the location of my gradient tests, the slope is about 4 kms north of Loy Manara airfield on the Takistan map-

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g64/PoorOldSpike/ExIS/AA-updfr.jpg

So, doing the math on that, the hill would appear to be approximately a 25% grade / 14 (ish) degrees.

So, given that we know the top speed of an M1 Abrams on a 10% grade (5 degrees) is 17 mph/27kph, then going up a 25% grade at about 10mph/17kph is pretty decent.

That the HMMWV does 64 up the same hill is probaby a bit fast, but not too bad (top speed of the M1114 is 125 kph, grade capability is 60%)

So the OP of

As soon as there's a little bit of elevation in terrain and even road, the tank slows to a crawl.

I've been in real tanks and trust me, these monsters have little trouble with slight elevation.

just isnt right, because the facts and the math prooves that the tanks in ArmA are actually quite reasonable.

Edited March 27, 2011 by DM

[sharpcut 10]

I tried to replicate this and it is not working...as soon as a single tyre is gone there is no manouverabilty anymore. After coming to a halt is is near impossible to keep on moving...the effect is like a tracked vehicle with a blown track.

Exactly what I experienced....sometimes I woder if everyone play the same arma2 as I do 0.o

[Leon86 13]

holy crap to anyone who thinks the current implementation of speeds is accurate. Guys.... I own a 650cc dirt bike, so for now lets just concentrate on the bikes/quads in the game

Want to have a guess what my uphill speed is on a 30 degree slope? 140kph. On a flat surface? 160kph

Uphill speed in arma2? about 70kph I believe

Why does Arma2 suffer from a massive speed drop off, whereas in reality its a very minor speed drop? torque to weight, NOT horsepower to weight

I'll give you another example, a 250cc dirt bike producing exactly the same horsepower will also have approx the same acceleration speed in a drag race (little faster due to less weight) but it will have a much lower top speed, and as soon as you add any additional weight such as climbing an incline, it's speed drops massively whereas my big torquey engine just keeps on powering along.

Why is this? well horsepower is how quickly you hit a wall, torque is how far you push the wall once you hit it

Stop comparing horsepower, an abrams only produces around 1500hp, but it makes a whopping 3800ft-lb of torque. Compared to a veyron making 1000hp it only makes 922ft-lb of torque. Huge huge huge difference in usable power. Obviously the abrams also weighs a crapload more, but it isn't gonna slow to a crawl on a minor incline. Put the veyron engine in the abrams and it'll barely move, soon as it hits a pebble it'll stall. Do the opposite and the veyron will climb a 45 degree gradient and barely lose any top speed

There is only power and drag. Torque is only meaningful when using the clutch (i.e. pulling up from a standstill)

[rangerpl 13]

Back in the days of Operation Flashpoint fully modelled interiors were made for most armoured vehicles, mitigating this. Unfortunately production budgets probably meant some corners had to be cut in later titles, and this was one of those corners

I don't understand why we'd need fully rendered interiors anyway, with the exception of transport vehicles (so that the grunts inside have a realistic view)

[wolfbite 8]

I do find the current driver view on tanks to be verry limeting......

[JojoTheSlayer 35]

I don't understand why we'd need fully rendered interiors anyway, with the exception of transport vehicles (so that the grunts inside have a realistic view)

Because when you play with full realism and sit in a driving seat for 3 hours during a tournament its great to have that extra view. In other scenarios, where you gun, you can look down into the hull to see where current 12oClock is as well, which I often do on the BTR-90 or the other way around if I am driving. I look back at the fully modeled turret to see if the gunner is watching where I told him to because I spotted enemies and so on. The BTR-90 dosent have functional windows, but you have solutions for that like you can see in the Bradley where they sacrifice the telescopes (engine limits) for direct see though windows at an angle.

Ps. is there some Tank addon mods that i should check out?

In general:

ACE-2 (Functional ballistic computers. Both range and speed. Press Tab)

RHS T80 Mod.

Type 10 & 90 and Xk2 in Asia MBT by Waterhiro. (Functional suspension elevation/degradation.)

Other great main battle tank models that stand out in other mods.

Leo 2 in BWMod v 1.7.

Leo 1 in Isla Duala v1.91.

Tiger 1 in WW2-31st Normandy (Full interior modeled!).

M1 Grizzly (Recovery tank) in ACE-2.

Panther and Tiger 2 in Invasion 1944 v 2.0 mod.

Most of these tanks dont have manual range settings and have gradual zoom settings etc, but you can mod that in yourself. I usually add the laser and range OA thing to main turret on modern tanks, pre set the optics ala M1 on OA and make it so the main turret dosent activate the engine while spinning. Its simple config editing. Why this isnt in more tanks released today I dont really know.

Edited March 29, 2011 by JojoTheSlayer

[max power 21]

As a driver I usually unbutton if I've going to be roving around for a while.

[JojoTheSlayer 35]

As a driver I usually unbutton if I've going to be roving around for a while.

Cant do that unless the commander is also out.

Vs humans its not always a smart thing to do ether. :)

[Atkins 10]

Wait what? You can't Turn out if the Commander isnt out as well?

I suppose that is the reason why it wont Turn Out after marking a target and whatnot...

But yeah, putting ur head out is not always the best thing to do...

Is it so that in some modern tanks/ifv, the driver has a special camera that goes 360 and has thermal? At least in PR they have those and they help a lot to drive the tank...

[max power 21]

If you're not in command of the tank, it usually won't let you unbutton unless the commander unbuttons.

[Millenium7 0]

There is only power and drag. Torque is only meaningful when using the clutch (i.e. pulling up from a standstill)

wtf?

Horsepower is relevant to power surge by the clutch. Torque is what keeps you going, torque is what will propel you from 100kph to 140kph. Horsepower is how quickly it happens. If you have a high horsepower low torque engine and you crack the throttle open at 100kph you will crawl your way to 140kph unless you are within that high horsepower range, meaning you need to bang it down a couple gears or slip and dump the clutch to get anywhere

Torque is relevant at any and all RPM's, go and have a look at the power curve of a 4 cylinder 250cc bike engine compared to a 1 cylinder of the same capacity. The 250 4cyl will almost definately make WAY more horsepower because it revs up to 20,000rpm or thereabouts, but look at the dyno chart. There is sweet f all torque until about 14,000rpm. Up until that point it couldn't pull the skin off a rotten banana. You need to clutch it all the time to get anywhere and you have utterly miserable roll-on power in 4th gear at 80kph

Swap over to the 250cc single cyl. It's a comparitively high torque lower horsepower engine because it doesn't rev anywhere near as high. Look at the dyno chart, it makes WAAAAAY more torque everywhere in the rev range below 12,000rpm. It will easily out accelerate the 4cyl in a roll-on test. I should mention these bikes have around the same top speed despite the 4cyl making significantly more 'horsepower', why? because torque is "how far you push the wall", the 4cyl will get there quicker up to a certain point, but the single has more torque to fight against weight and drag. Uphill or with more weight the single will have a higher top speed because it pushes the wall harder than the 4cyl does

Now lets take it up a notch, come and sit on my 650cc single, it only makes about 45hp. Compared to what 90hp of a 4cyl racing bike. I want you to go along at a measly 2000rpm on both bikes, infact screw it you can have a 1000cc 4cyl if you want, go something big at least 130hp at the rear. Now crack the throttle open WITHOUT clutch

the 4cyl - a miserable display of weakness

the 1cyl - you are on your ass because 'torque' ripped the front end sky high in an instant

Edited March 30, 2011 by Millenium7

[Leon86 13]

constraining what rpm the engine is at and saying "look the high-torque engine wins" is hardly fair now is it?

I admit I was trolling a bit but the point is multiply torque with rotational speed and you get power. If you know power and speed you know the torque on the wheel, which minus drag determines acceleration. If the racebike is in the right gear the torque on the wheel will be higher if the power at that specific rpm is higher. The dirtbike has a much more forgiving powerband so you dont have to shift as much and its not that big of a problem being in the wrong gear, much more usefull at lower speeds.

[max power 21]

Yeah. If you're having trouble driving a low torque, high rpm engine design, you're doing it wrong.

[Beagle 684]

You can forget about your torque talk. In RV engine all tanks run at the most angled slopes with idle rpm and high gear instead of roaring up in lowest gear and high rpm. Its just a sound played, it has no real meaning.

[Millenium7 0]

Yeah. If you're having trouble driving a low torque, high rpm engine design, you're doing it wrong.

yes but this is the best example I can give of how arma2's vehicles operate on hills or with other obstacles. If anything they are making lots of peak horsepower but no torque. It's not just tanks (or the sound thats playing). All vehicles seem to need a lot of momentum to get them moving on hills, whereas in reality the dirt bikes would launch very quickly from a standstill , or not have such a drastic reduction in speed or acceleration. Cars and trucks would still be able to climb inclines from a standstill, and tanks would not be defeated by a small rock. The tanks top speed might be sort of accurate, but the bigger problem is that they and everything else has so much trouble getting around when they aren't at their top speed, and theres too big of a reduction when meeting little resistance