September 1939 Mod

[dembol754 10]

Mayby this help you. :)

[topas 1]

Thanks.

Any more info on this one? Exact name of the pattern, year of issue? (it's a bit helpful, but it's clearly visible that both photos are of a yellowish hue, which makes the exact colours wrong - PLUS, it's a post 1940 character, which is clearly visible by his armament and some elements of the gear. It may very well be an MP38, but with this quality it's hard to tell)

So far I have found samples of Platan for various seasons (Summer/Autumn)

Having blurry black and white pics as reference does not make the decision easy... Did they have the summer version, or the autumn one? It's basically guess-work here...

Once home I will post screens of the pattern I was able to draw based on the pics available. I have chosen to go for the 4th one from the above shown. If you'll like it we'll stick to it. Stay tuned

Edited November 18, 2011 by topas

[dembol754 10]

http://www.atthefront.com/HR/g/uni_SS_smocks.html

In this link, you have some informations. :)

[abs 2]

In this link, you have some informations. :)

Thanks for the links, dembol. :)

Once home I will post screens of the pattern I was able to draw based on the pics available.

Can't wait to see what you've come up with. :bounce3:

Abs

[topas 1]

Thanks Dembol, I will try to experiment during the weekend. :)

And that's what I got done (based more or less on this type previously shown):

Seems I'd need to remake it in light of the reference posted.

[belgerot 33]

Here's a surviving example:

http://www.germanmilitaria.com/WaffenSS/photos/S001463.html

Reproductions, but perfect examples of the early Type I (38/40) Smocks:

http://www.1944militaria.com/searchresults.asp?cat=1832

I would most certainly go with the pattern you've chosen, Plane Tree or Platanenmuster as it was the first type widely produced by the time war broke out. http://www.kamouflage.net/camouflage/00119.php

Perfect introduction: http://www.artizandesigns.com/guides/germanpatterns.pdf

Topas, from the link you posted that smock appears to be made from two separate camouflage patterns if I'm not mistaken, a mix of plane tree and oak (a?). This certainly wasn't uncommon.

Edited November 19, 2011 by belgerot
added info/links

[abs 2]

Slowly but surely getting there. Something about the shape doesn't quite seem right, but I sometimes feel that way until the whole model is finished. Turret is from 10TP...no need to reinvent the wheel.

Feedback welcome.

Abs

[dembol754 10]

Great work Abs and Topas but i thought the 7TP was done earlier. Right?

Edited November 19, 2011 by dembol754

[max power 21]

Looking good, abs.

Looking at the road wheels, I believe that the extra rim closest to their centres and the gap between the 'duellies' on the rolling surface can be accomplished in texture. With those details reduced, you would be more free to increase the tessellation of the polygons that define their silhouettes. Even at this medium distance, I can tell they are not round. I think if you really so desired you could accomplish the bands on the arms that suspend the inner two sets of road wheels (leaf springs?) in texture as well. They do not seem to be super dense objects, though. I think you could also do the holes at the end of the 2 torsion bars (???) that suspend the wheel cassettes similarly.

From what I see, the silhouette looks good and the wheels are the only round objects that appear polygonal (barring the infinitesimally sharp corners which I think are not avoidable on a real time model).

[abs 2]

Great work Abs and Topas but i thought the 7TP was done earlier. Right?

Yep, there was a 7TP already. But after making the 10TP and 4TP, the difference in quality was noticeable, and Topas felt that it would be best if I made the 7TP as well in order to bring it up to standard.

Looking good, abs.

Looking at the road wheels, I believe that the extra rim closest to their centres and the gap between the 'duellies' on the rolling surface can be accomplished in texture. With those details reduced, you would be more free to increase the tessellation of the polygons that define their silhouettes. Even at this medium distance, I can tell they are not round. I think if you really so desired you could accomplish the bands on the arms that suspend the inner two sets of road wheels (leaf springs?) in texture as well. They do not seem to be super dense objects, though. I think you could also do the holes at the end of the 2 torsion bars (???) that suspend the wheel cassettes similarly.

From what I see, the silhouette looks good and the wheels are the only round objects that appear polygonal (barring the infinitesimally sharp corners which I think are not avoidable on a real time model).

Yea, I really had to minimize the polygons on the wheels, as there are 36 of them. Right now they are 14 sided. Even an extra side (15) would increase it by 324 polies (if my math is right), so making it not as round was a sacrifice I had to make. Now, are you talking about getting rid of this part right here?

If I were to do that, it would save me 1008 polies, which would mean that I could add another 3 sides to the wheels.

Also, terminology is making it a little bit difficult to understand where you're referring to. The bands on the leaf springs: Not quite sure what you mean there (I'm totally not a car guy). I looked up leaf springs, and know what that is now, but I'm not sure which bands you mean.

As for the overall shape, thanks. I appreciate that you guys think it looks good too. Maybe I'm just being too critical, and it's nice to have that reinforcement. :)

Abs

[topas 1]

Looking good Abs, thanks :) What is it about the tank that's bugging you? Can't say I see anything wrong with dimensions / proportions at the first glance.

[*]To be honest the story was a bit different, but it doesn't matter. The end result does. ;)

Edited November 19, 2011 by topas

[max power 21]

Yea, I really had to minimize the polygons on the wheels, as there are 36 of them. Right now they are 14 sided. Even an extra side (15) would increase it by 324 polies (if my math is right), so making it not as round was a sacrifice I had to make. Now, are you talking about getting rid of this part right here?

[imghttp://img829.imageshack.us/img829/4864/maxd.png[/img]

If I were to do that, it would save me 1008 polies, which would mean that I could add another 3 sides to the wheels.

Also, terminology is making it a little bit difficult to understand where you're referring to. The bands on the leaf springs: Not quite sure what you mean there (I'm totally not a car guy). I looked up leaf springs, and know what that is now, but I'm not sure which bands you mean.

As for the overall shape, thanks. I appreciate that you guys think it looks good too. Maybe I'm just being too critical, and it's nice to have that reinforcement. :)

Abs

I'm also having problems with the terminology. I was just making guesses at what they were to try to zero in on what I was talking about.

I see now that these bands I was talking about are modelled bolts. They appear to be some kind of clamp. I don't know if you can do that in texture. You would either have to hint at something or just make something up, so I think geometry is a good choice.

The inner part of the wheels is indeed what I was talking about. Also, those wheels appear to be two wheels side-by-side. I think you can make them all one solid shape with the gap indicated by texture. Gromov is doing a similar thing for our wheels right now. If you are skeptical about the advice, next time we see him (which might not be for a wee while), I will ask him if I can share some shots with you so you can decide on whether or not you like the effect.

When I did the spz Marder, I found that the wheels of tanks are where nearly 50% of your polygons go... And, in ArmA, they are usually shown from the side at a distance, spinning, occluded by the tracks, and/or at the edge of the frame with a high degree of perspective distortion. Savings on the wheels to put into other parts I think are worthwhile. That said, if you're comfortable in your poly budget, I wouldn't sweat it too much.

[topas 1]

\Also, those wheels appear to be two wheels side-by-side. I think you can make them all one solid shape with the gap indicated by texture.

The gap is actually a quite visible one.. Quite certain that simulating it by normals would not do the trick...

pic1, pic2, pic3 (spares)

[max power 21]

Well, when is the last time a player stuck his head in the tracks to observe the road wheels? Of course it doesn't look as good as geometry but it will save you 1000 or more polygons. And it's not the normal map alone that would be responsible for the look of the thing.

Like I say, if Gromov is okay with it I can send or post some shots and you can judge with no speculation on whether or not the idea suits your vision. If you disagree with my opinion, I respect that :)

[topas 1]

Ok, I get your point and on a second thought tend to agree a bit. We're thankful for the tips and open to suggestions.

Now that I think of it: The same road wheels and chasiss will in the end be used for an other vehicle too, the C7P tractor, which in fact may require some extra polygons (much more detail and curves needed as with a boxy tank hull).

Let's see what Abs' opinion is ;)

PS: After all, we can always make the twin-wheels as a solid one object, pretending the gap to be packed with thick mud :P

[abs 2]

Looking good Abs, thanks :) What is it about the tank that's bugging you? Can't say I see anything wrong with dimensions / proportions at the first glance.

[*]To be honest the story was a bit different, but it doesn't matter. The end result does. ;)

I'm not sure...I'm glad you think that it looks fine, because I trust your keen eye for detail. I felt the same way when building the 10TP, and it turned out fine. Maybe it has to do with the fact that all the details aren't on there yet, so I'm sure my feeling will go away with time.

:) I do have a faulty memory most times, so maybe I don't remember the reason. I do remember that story coming up in our discussions, though.

I'm also having problems with the terminology. I was just making guesses at what they were to try to zero in on what I was talking about.

I see now that these bands I was talking about are modelled bolts. They appear to be some kind of clamp. I don't know if you can do that in texture. You would either have to hint at something or just make something up, so I think geometry is a good choice.

The inner part of the wheels is indeed what I was talking about. Also, those wheels appear to be two wheels side-by-side. I think you can make them all one solid shape with the gap indicated by texture. Gromov is doing a similar thing for our wheels right now. If you are skeptical about the advice, next time we see him (which might not be for a wee while), I will ask him if I can share some shots with you so you can decide on whether or not you like the effect.

When I did the spz Marder, I found that the wheels of tanks are where nearly 50% of your polygons go... And, in ArmA, they are usually shown from the side at a distance, spinning, occluded by the tracks, and/or at the edge of the frame with a high degree of perspective distortion. Savings on the wheels to put into other parts I think are worthwhile. That said, if you're comfortable in your poly budget, I wouldn't sweat it too much.

Yep, they are clamps, and would be impossible to do with texture due to the spacing in the clamps and the leaf springs.

Even though the gap is really large between the two wheels, I'd still love to see some shots if you guys are willing to make it public. Any techniques we learn from each other just help to make the quality of our addons better, so even if we don't use it here, it may come in handy elsewhere.

Because this is one of the main tanks and definitely will be one of the centerpieces of the mod, my comfortable poly limit is around 12,000 polies. The 10TP was around 10K, and the 4TP was around 8K, so I think 12 is good here. You're absolutely right about the wheels using up about half the polies, and I still have quite a few more wheels to add. I'll keep everything the way it is for now, and if I find I'm hitting my limit I'll take your advice on where to shave them off...heck, maybe I'll do it anyway once the model is done, as the visible difference should only be a minor one.

Thanks again for the comments!

Abs

[EDIT: Aaaah! You guys ninja'd me with comments! I have a conference call, so I'll have to read and reply to your latest posts later.]

---------- Post added at 03:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:06 PM ----------

Sorry for the double post, but it just felt more efficient to separate my response.

Well, when is the last time a player stuck his head in the tracks to observe the road wheels? Of course it doesn't look as good as geometry but it will save you 1000 or more polygons. And it's not the normal map alone that would be responsible for the look of the thing.

Like I say, if Gromov is okay with it I can send or post some shots and you can judge with no speculation on whether or not the idea suits your vision. If you disagree with my opinion, I respect that :)

There's a bit of a minor design influence here. When Poland was invaded in 1939, most of their equipment was wiped out or captured. There are no known complete original vehicles available today. There are efforts to rebuild some of these older vehicles using only original parts found in the countryside, but as of yet not a single complete vehicle exists. Because of this, part of the purpose of this mod is to offer up these models as an almost 'virtual museum', and as such we are striving for a level of detail that has not existed in past games for these models.

You're absolutely right when you say that people would never stand and check out the road wheels in the middle of a firefight, and I agree wholeheartedly. But looks are also something that I am striving for, as I want people to put this unit into the editor, stare at it and say "This is what our grandfathers used to defend Poland". (Well, not my grandfather...I'm not Polish.)

I hope the above explanation has helped to clarify a little bit where our viewpoint stands when it comes to the matter at hand. Having said that, from a strictly design perspective, knowing where and how to shave polies is definitely helpful, so as in my previous post, I would love to see a screen of how you guys do it. :)

Ok, I get your point and on a second thought tend to agree a bit. We're thankful for the tips and open to suggestions.

Now that I think of it: The same road wheels and chasiss will in the end be used for an other vehicle too, the C7P tractor, which in fact may require some extra polygons (much more detail and curves needed as with a boxy tank hull).

Let's see what Abs' opinion is ;)

PS: After all, we can always make the twin-wheels as a solid one object, pretending the gap to be packed with thick mud :P

I've thought about this too...I mean, we also have to include a visible interior for the tractor, which will definitely add to the final count. At least the turret will be gone on that model, so I'll have to cross that bridge once I get there.

Abs

Edited November 19, 2011 by Abs
Ninja'd!

[LODU 19]

If I can give my point of view, without wanting to sound pretentious, I will complete the remarks on the Polycount, by adding those related to reducing the number of sections on models.

Thus, the number of polygons in the first lod can be tempered by the use of a small number of textures and associated rvmat: ideally good models reduce by half with each new lod resolution and preferably it is better to changes in brightness on the SMDI texture to simulate the differences in materials, rather than making a new rvmat (when possible, of course ...).

We must not forget that the Second World War is synonymous with having committed a lot of fighting men and materials at the same time.

To get to reproduce this, it is better to optimize a maximum.

It is my opinion, of course ... and I will gladly share;)

[topas 1]

Thx LODU ;)

LODU is our Deus Ex Machina, without any warning, to our full surprise he decided to support us yet again, this time providing character models for the Germans. We just need to adjust those to the 1939 setting now. So far I changed their uniforms to fit the theme. Jaksa's task will be to create 3D for the fitting equipment (MG34 spare barrel carriers, etc.)

Taa-daa!

We have presented Jaksa's models earlier; and we will have them as well, trying to make the best of both worlds here. Hopefully this will result in some more variety.

---------------------------------------

One of our biggest headaches is still handhelds...Yet, Jaksa gives his best to add some new items from time to time to replace older lowpoly models

Here, Jaksa's two new creations, that I'm struggling to texture (I suck at this and prefer vehicles/characters)...

Wz.35 AntiTank rifle "UR"

Wz.24 Signal/Flare-pistol "Perkun"

Still an early WIP (I mean the textures)

Edited November 21, 2011 by topas

[dembol754 10]

Great work, but one question, this UR is raised or static?

[topas 1]

You mean the bipod? For now it's static, but probably Jaksa will make it foldable when carried on back.

[dembol754 10]

Great!

[Jimmy1975 10]

Great work :)

[topas 1]

Thanks, I'll let Jaksa know that you guys like the effects of his hard work ;)

Now, wouldn't anyone perhaps posess any information on improvised armored vehicles of September 1939?

I do know that they were unique constructions, designed and manufactured in a matter of days by the Coastal Defence (LOW) units and sailors from warships sunken in harbours who now had to fight on land - lacking means to do so effectively they constructed armored vehicles using civilian or army issue cars, armor plating and deck armament of ships. There even were two trains adopted in such way...

Unfortunately there's very few photo evidence of this all. If anyone has anything more than the below shown, please do let us know. It's a most interesting aspect of the conflict, more than worthy depicting.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

As you have asked, so shall you receive. :P

http://www.achtungpanzer.com/polish-armor-1939-improvised-armored-car-kubus.htm

http://the.shadock.free.fr/Surviving_Polish_armoured_vehicles.pdf

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/pol/kubus1.jpg

http://www.warsawuprising.com/paper/kubus.htm

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Warsaw_Uprising_-_Kubu%C5%9B.jpg

Hmm everything I can find so far is on the Kubus. I'll keep looking.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Darkhorse 1-6

[topas 1]

Thanks Darkhorse, the reference presented regards an armored vehicle that was constructed 5 years later, during the occupation, and was used in the Warsaw Uprising of 1944. The description in the first link explains it all ;)

Thanks for the effort and time spent on gathering these though.

I did find some written information on the improvised armored cars of 1939, but without pics it's not worth to even think of building them. Unless we, well, maybe improvise :D