REQ: Modification of vanilla building models

[janh 0]

I think one major problem for CQB fighting and fighting in urban environments is the lack of AI to use buildings as firing positions since AI cannot shoot through windows like a human player.

I think one workaround could be removing the windows in all accessible houses, so there is just an open frame in the models. With this, houses and fighting in towns might get much more realistic.

Would be great if someone would be interested in this and take care of the vanilla buildings in Utes and Chenaurus. That would add a great lot to the AI capabilities.

[Laertes 10]

Addon Request Thread

[bushlurker 46]

An interesting suggestion...

Like Laertes (classic nickname! :D ) says - requests like these are best aimed at the "Addons Request Thread" where theres greater potential someone capable of the job may just spot the idea and have a go...

However - just briefly, since we're here in "discussion" and before the thread sinks without trace...

I've been fooling around with a few Arma 1 buildings for my project - the Arma 2 "corrugated iron and timber" isn't really appropriate for the Scottish countryside where everything is stonebuilt... Since I'm retexturing stuff, and tbh the A1 buildings do look a little crude in comparison to the A2 stuff, I've been thinking about enhancements... one of these was glass in the windows of the enterable houses... currently they ARE just empty frames... so...

Is it a general opinion that no glass is actually a good idea? cosmetics aside... they're mostly enterable buildings and - so far - the AI seem happy enough to wander in and out of them... Should I just abandon the glass idea (and save a bit of time too)... I'd far rather my terrain played well than looked awesome (though I'm aiming for both ;))...

So I'd welcome a few brief comments & opinions from players...

B

Edited October 13, 2010 by Bushlurker

[Fox '09 14]

Well, I prefer windows, especially since the new betas (no self inflicted combat stress)

even if they're just a breakable double sided polygon that goes over the frames..

[janh 0]

Since glass windows does give human players an enormous advantage, I think it would be worth a try to see whether AI would perform better in urban environments when it can shoot from buildings. Else, all it can do, is hopelessly wander around on the predefined paths inside the buildings.

I have been building on a mission framework that sets up a complete, complex mission with insertion and extraction just by detecting forces on the maps, environmental factors and locations of value (since OFP days; after skipping ARMA1, I was now busy for almost 9 months porting to ARMA2, and making use of enhancements like combining some functions from SLX and such, but not the whole packages like the GL3/4, since it messes with my mission scripting and would only add to CPU load). For that I was experimenting with two platoon commands, "DEFEND", and "HOLD". In one case, the units only look for cover in the open, in the other case, they are allowed to enter buildings and take cover behind windows as well (think "Blackhawk Down"). And yet, if they enter buildings, they become much easier prey than hiding in the open: AI will come out one by one to engage, rather than to shoot from the cover of the walls through windows. Houses presently are just an AI killer.

[Spartan 163 0]

Cool Jann is gonna redo all the buildings in the game! I can't wait to see screen shots.

For a second I thought this was an add-on request but it is not in the add-on request section so it has to be a work in progress. Good luck with work!

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

... "Nice" post Proto. :rolleyes:

It actually is in the request thread, it's just that now this thread has been turned into a legitimate discussion thread.

[janh 0]

Cool Jann is gonna redo all the buildings in the game! I can't wait to see screen shots.

Well, there is eye-candy guys, and there are some people whose focus is clearly on the hard-core realism and functionality part. Guess that's not your piece of cake.

Anyway, it is only a small number of buildings that are accessible, as you should know. Those buildings are presently mostly useless and death-traps for AI, and that really is a major drawback for urban fighting. I assume most people wouldn't argue about that. For my part, I would be happy to loose the windows, but gain the possibility to have more realistic and exciting combat in towns.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Ignore Proto's sarcasm Janh. He said that because you didn't use the addon request thread in the first place, although now this thread has become a proper discussion thread.

[bushlurker 46]

Well I'm certainly interested in discussion on the topic - its related to an addon I'm making, and we're in the discussion section, so I think we're on safe ground - even if I didn't originally start the thread, its certainly related to janh's original enquiry...

It's only one of several areas of "new ground" I'm trying to get the hang of, but I'm just about able to do simple editing in O2 now - including glass - which I was also thinking of adding to an old-style British red phonebox model I've got permission to use... no real issues with that - its just an ornament...

I've spent a bit of time building Inverness recently, using almost entirely Arma 1 buildings... testing AI has been fun - they're dealing with the lanes and back alleys and they open garden gates and stuff - I'm well pleased with all of that... most of those "housing area" houses are enterable to some degree or other and I've been sniped from a window once or twice - also great! ;)

So I'm keen to preserve all of that...

Mixed in with the enterables are a few non-enterables... mostly I've just made their windows quite reflective so they catch the sun from certain angles - the rest of the angles they just look like a basic window texture - good enough, I'm no modelling genius, and its all about impressions anyway...

The enterable buildings though, are just the basic Arma 1 empty frames - retextured a bit, but just holes in the wall really - the good bit is that the AI DO treat them as just that - and since they seem to actually understand the house positions, they occasionally surprise you from a window...

One of the drawbacks of doing a big modding project on your own is that you forget to actually play sometimes :p, so I can't actually remember the last time I encountered AI indoors on Chernarus in a proper spontaneous in-game situation, so I figured I'd take advantage of janh's opening enquiry to gather a bit of player experiences, if anyones got anything to contribute...

Personally I'm for reliable AI behaviour over cosmetics any day, unless both can be effectively combined... I guess I'd better try and set up a few encounters in Cherno buildings with glass and see how it goes...

Thanks for the opinions so far guys!

B

Edited October 15, 2010 by Bushlurker

[commander jao 10]

I am with bushlurker it the removal or windows allows AI to use building properly than i am all for it.

also has anything happened in regards to this "discussion"?

Or is it just spit balling ideas?

regards

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Since the models of the vanilla buildings are BIS property, and we don't have access to them, if somebody actually did modify them it would be illegal to release it.

[janh 0]

Ok, I spent some more time thinking about it since my Mission scripting and the improved SLX_Findcover func I use for dynamically assigned units in Defense/Hold/Probe/Advance/Assault roles is designed (and should) also use building as cover if the necessity is detected.

And presently I can order a chalk to hold a building, they all nicely occupy it, pick a side towards which to defend, and dynamically change the unitpos to peek out of the window -- just to be slaughtered by someone standing outside and shooting through the glass, without them ever returning fire. Arrrgh.

So I looked into the original addons p3d files, and tried to understand the MLOD concept. Yip, wasn't the most exciting thing -- I am not a model artist/designer, I like to script and just adjust the config.cpp to ideal realism and self-consistence with other mods, and else simply use the excellent models the modders provide.

So the BIS model, of the pub in Chernogorsk (A_pub in buildings2.pbo) as one example, could be a problem. The VIEW GEOMETRY MLOD seems not to show open areas for the windows, which it would appear there should be open planes? There is not FIRE GEOMETRY MLOD -- so what does the engine do without? Use the VIEW GEOMETRY? OR one of the other MLODs that have the glass texture for the window?

Can one of the developers answer this question? That would be nice.

If it is just this mistake of a badly defined VIEW GEOMETRY MLOD, then this would most likely be a case for a BUG report, and patching. Also, if permissible, modders could easily fix this. I recall the ADDON with reduced MLODs for the buildings that was published by someone a while ago to improve performance in towns -- I still use it occasionally, but can't find any readme or author with that. Since I am not expert on models, and might screws things up I don't know about, I can only call on volunteers to proceed with that... I am not even sure how many models have that problem -- for example the 2-story villa with the balcony in buildings.pbo doesn't, but many others definitely are also just a death trap for the ones inside.

EDIT: that would mean the glass texture per se ain't the problem. However, if it is neither a problem with faces in the VIEW GEOMETRY MLOD, or a missing FIRE GEOMETRY, and the engine used the structure MLOD, then the glass would have to go with the present game engine. Missing the glass (and eye candy) would be a lesser approximation than original issue (realism/feature), though.

Edited November 7, 2010 by janh

[madrussian 347]

I think one major problem for CQB fighting and fighting in urban environments is the lack of AI to use buildings as firing positions since AI cannot shoot through windows like a human player.

AI cannot shoot through windows? This is really the case? Seems like I've been shot by AI plenty of time through windows. Come to think of it I'm always inside the building.

So does it work like this?

1. When you are inside building looking out the window, AI can see and shoot you - BUT-

2. When AI is inside the building looking out the window, AI cannot see you.

Is that the claim? If so, interesting find, and something I never noticed before. ;)

If this is really a problem, then maybe it's just a matter of changing the building's underlying "AI-view-blocking LOD" or whatever it's called, right? As in, there's no reason to lose the visual model of the glass or anything... ? Anyhow, it's been a while since I open up Ox2 and looked around.

edit-

Just noticed you previously mention the LOD concern. :)

Edited November 7, 2010 by MadRussian

[janh 0]

No one who really knows how this works, and willing to explain? Bummer, this is a major issue for urban combat.

It is basically pointless to fight AI in towns if they cannot shoot from inside (some? all?) windowed buildings.

[Steakslim 1]

From what I've seen, and this is only the non technical side of things. If the window is closed, the AI cannot see you through it. They may have seen you go into the building and are just peppering the building with gunfire like they would any other time you are taking cover after being spotted but in most cases if you don't make a lot of noise, they cannot locate you very well once inside.

With open windows, they can see you, from within or outside. With closed windows they treat actual window models like any other wall or surface from what I've seen and are unaware of the transparencies. My issue with windows is that the glass doesn't break, and thus every time you fire through one the trajectory of the bullet is altered. This can make things difficult firing through a window when it's your only vantage point.

[janh 0]

From what I've seen, and this is only the non technical side of things. If the window is closed, the AI cannot see you through it. They may have seen you go into the building and are just peppering the building with gunfire like they would any other time you are taking cover after being spotted but in most cases if you don't make a lot of noise, they cannot locate you very well once inside.

With open windows, they can see you, from within or outside. With closed windows they treat actual window models like any other wall or surface from what I've seen and are unaware of the transparencies. My issue with windows is that the glass doesn't break, and thus every time you fire through one the trajectory of the bullet is altered. This can make things difficult firing through a window when it's your only vantage point.

The alteration of trajectories would be neat too, but isn't a serious issue if the buildings don't work as cover anyway.

I used a scripted test mission to look into those issues, i.e. the people inside the building are placed by a setpos in an init script (i.e. no one truly "enters"), and the only person moving is the one outside. AI can see inside, even if you don't do anything. And it also starts peppering glass-covered windows that a player fired from a large distance, i.e. also notes shooters. But turning this around, AI inside simply stays idle even if shoot at from 5m in front of the window it is behind -- it only reacts to enemies inside the same room.

You can test that easily using the Pubs everywhere, or even nicer: The big Hotel in Chernogorsk, the one with the huge glass windows in the hall -- that it really just sucide for AI to enter there. (Besides, doesn't the ladder to the rooftop work? Ok, 20 floors, but it is there?! Also I saw "elevator" scripts in the building pbo file).

I tried to edit one of the p3d models I debinarized using on of the tools mentioned in the PMC Editing Wiki, edited the VIEW GEOMETRY MLOD and removed the facets for windows (make it like a door in the VIEW MLOD), but after repacking the whole pbo with just that model changed, the model wasn't being binarized and I got lots of error messages in the log. Would be nice if an expert could take a look at this whole question. I find it a rather important issue for any MOUT or urban fighting and must wonder why few others else have mentioned it yet?

Edited November 12, 2010 by janh

[janh 0]

My issue with windows is that the glass doesn't break, and thus every time you fire through one the trajectory of the bullet is altered. This can make things difficult firing through a window when it's your only vantage point.

Steakslim, I just realized that I misread your statement. Indeed bullet trajectories are altered by passing through glass -- I didn't even realize that until a while ago. I am truly impressed at the level of detail have come true with this game engine. It may still have development potential, but it has truly come very far since the days of already amazing OFP. Maybe I just missed it as well, but if not: BIS should advertise such intricacies more! Really great work!