-Coulum-

Nothing special, just photoshop. The sway patterns aren't 100% accurate but they are generally the right shape within the confines of the horizontal and vertical extents of sway. The extents of sway are pretty accurate however, as I used the markings on the sights to measure exactly how far off target the gun was capable of swaying along the horizontal and vertical axis. I think the pictures are accurate enough to provide feedback on. Either way the result is the rifle moves up and down. Whether its while inhaling or exhaling is inconsequential. Quite possibly. In real life my aim certainly doesn't drift that far up or down due to breathing. But then again in real life I am always trying to compensate for my breathing. If the player compensates for the vertical sway I presented, I think the end result will be similar. I know some aren't a fan of having to fight or predict the sway, but my hope is that since it is basically totally vertical, and thus much more predictable, it will be much less of a tedious/annoying task and since it is based on realistic motion of the rifle, it will not come across as too unimmersive/unrealistic. And since the travel path of the sway is long and at moderate speed, it will retain the more realistic challenge that I personally am most concerned about, making long range shots take a bit of time and concentration to line up. Really we can't know for sure until BI makes a similar change, but theoretically I think it will be better than the sway we have now. Admittedly it will never be perfect due to the fact that we are on a mouse and keyboard with a 2d screen. But I think this sway would be closer to perfect than anything we've had so far. So I can't fully agree or disagree with you until I see it in action. I would argue that even when prone, breathing has more effect than pulse. When you're prone your chest is still rising and falling which moves your body up and down ever so slightly which is something you have to compensate for when you aim. I do like the idea of pulse, but I think it is a different thing then weapon sway. Maybe a cool feature of the marksman dlc. I would say just keep it simple for now. While I love and have had the idea to combine hold breath key with respiratory state for varying degrees of steadiness I think that is a bit too hardcore. My goal right now, is to find a relatively balanced sway that isn't too easy, but isn't overly annoying. I am trying to look at it from other people's perspectives as well as my own and balance accordingly. Plus that is more of an additional feature than a tweak. But whon knows whats possible when the marksman comes around. Hehe. Thats definitely a can of worms to be opened in another thread. Forget I even mentioned it.:) I have and generally I was not happy with it. While I liked the fact that horizontal sway was decreased, I felt it was unbalanced without an increase to the vertical sway. And I felt the speed of the sway was generally pretty good in 1.24 stable, thus I found it unnecessary to decrease that speed. They kind of just went halfway. Something along the lines I'd like to see in next devbranch changelog regarding sway: Decreased horizontal sway by another 30% (ontop of the previous 20% we just had chopped off) Increased vertical sway by 30% Sped up crouched sway speed by 10% Sped up prone sway speed by 25% Hold breath now decreases not only vertical sway speed but also horizontal sway speed by 50% (To avoid the reticule suddenly veering left or right when you hold breath, as it does currently) That dev branch would be closer to what I am trying achieve in my above post. Basically my problem with the way it is now is that it didn't make the sway and more controllable or less annoying, it just simply made it a hell of alot easier which isn't what I am looking for. I am trying to find the challenge of 1.24 without/with less of the annoying mechanics. Exactly my thought process. Since the sway will be more predictable it shouldn't be hard for people to compensate for that vertical sway and keep realistically on target or time their shots when the reticule lines up with the target. But can't be sure based soley on pictures. See my response to the_Demongod.

My opinion as to what needs to be done to balance the ai a bit: Ai accuracy generally needs to be brought down maybe 10% to keep up to speed with 1.24 weaponsway. Ai aiming error needs to be increased when they are using ironsight/non magnified optics. Right now its as if they are all using optics. Ai needs to be a bit less accurate based on fatigue. Ai needs to be far less accurate when injured. Ai precision slider needs to have more weight on their actual accuracy. And of course my all time favourite, and probably the hardest to do, Ai aiming error needs to change based on incoming fire (Sonic cracks as well as impacts - very important) explosions and casualties. I would say 1 and 5 are the best place to start. If all these can be nailed I think that the ai shooting skills will be acceptably humanlike. i am sure that the devs already know all this and its just a matter of getting the time to do it, but It makes me feel better to itemize it.:)

I love this kind of thinking but I think for now we are going to have to stick to tweaking sway alone to achieve the desired results. What you suggest is maybe something for marksman dlc. I like the other suggestions you have about suppression and what not as well bbut again right now the question is how to tweak the sway alone, to get the best of both result based realism and immersive/aesthetic realism. That is understandable but at the same time BI should have a general standard that pleases as many people as possible. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay guys I've spent some time to analyse what is actually happening with the sway in 1.24 stable. Picture is worth a thousand words so here are my general findings: The shaded area represents the vertical and horizontal axis of sway, while the line represents the actual sway pattern (Yes sway isn't actually something random, each stance has path that the weapon follows). Basically the axis of sway manipulates the sway pattern by stretching or compressing it. This is sway while standing pointing at a target 300 metres away: Sway Speed is moderate. This is sway while crouched pointing at a target 300 metres away: Speed of the sway is about two thirds as fast as while standing. This is sway while prone pointing at a target 300 metres away: Speed of the sway is about one tenth as fast as while standing. This is the sway while prone pointing at a target 1000 metres away: You can see that higher power optics magnify the sway. And Lastly a comparison of the 3 stances Basically when you are fatigued or injured it stretches the vertical and horizontal axis of sway as well as increasing the sway speed. Injury general causes a horizontal stretch in the sway pattern, while fatigue general causes a vertical stretch in the sway pattern. Based on this I have several suggestions that I think might help players find the system more intuitive and immersive/believable/aesthetically realistic and less frustrating/annoying, while also retaining the more realistic challenge that 1.24 stable brought. Here are a few key points: Sway should be much more vertical and much less horizontal - stance will change vertical sway not as drastically but will almost nullify horizontal sway the lower you go. Sway speed should not be effected by stance as much. Standing speed should be slightly slower (than in 1.24), while prone speed should be slightly faster (than in 1.24). Your breathing rate doesn't change when you change stance. Fatigue will not increase the vertical axis of sway as much, but will effect sway speed drastically, since your respiratory rate is increasing. Injury is fine as it is. It is pretty damn hard to shoot with an arm injury now but I don't think anyone really knows what its like to aim with a bullet in your arm. We can assume it is very hard. The current achieves this. If anyone has better ideas/experience feel free to share. So basically this is somewhat like what the new sway system would look like... Standing 300m: Compared to 1.24 Much less horizontal with a slightly slower sway speed than 1.24 currently has, and a longer vertical axis. Crouched 300m: Compared to 1.24 Less horizontal with the same sway speed as 1.24 and a longer vertical axis. Prone 300m: Compared to 1.24 A bit less horizontal with a slightly faster sway speed than 1.24 currently has, and a longer vertical axis. Prone 1000m: Compared to 1.24 You will notice that prone still has a considerable range of motion when targeting long range targets. This is intentional. The hope is that the much more vertical and thus predictable sway pattern will make it feel more natural and smooth, and less jerky and frustrating. I don't want 1km sniping to be a cakewalk, but at the same time I don't want it to be a painful experience that can't be mastered. With the hold breath I suggest below, I think that this system will achieve this far better than what we currently have. Basically the goal here is to keep the challenge while changing the sway such that it is more intuitive and less gimmicky. The more vertical movement will allow players to better predict and thus compensate for sway. Meanwhile, the speed change (standing slower than 1.24, prone faster than 1.24) will make shooting standing a bit more viable while still keeping prone shooting engaging despite the predictable weapon sway. Hold breath feature would ideally not change the sway pattern as it does now in devbranch - it is confusing when you hold breath and your sway basically changes direction. Instead hold breath should merely slow down the speed of sway equally in both the vertical and horizontal direction (maybe by 75%) while keeping in the same motion. This will allow players to have more time to line up their shots or train their aim, while steadying their weapon. Interested to know what you guys think... Does this seem like it might look and feel more believable? Could it be a step in the right direction?

live2reap First off I don't think anyone is being overly flame bating. Sorry we come across that way, but it isn't our intention. About the sniping at full fatigue etc. what exactly is your point? I am not asking that to be rude, just not sure what your trying to get across. What everybody else is saying is that in reality sniping is a delicate tasks that requires a calm and rested condition, thus complaining that it is not possible while tired and uncalm is not reasonable. I am glad you retracted you statement about the running around the block stuff. One thing that might have caused this confusion is because it is very hard to tell how tired you are. You might think you are at full rest, but in reality you are half fatigued - now you make that run and find that you are exhausted by the end of it and feel that your fatigue has gone down to fast. I think this is a good reason why we need a fatigue bar or something.

Which video are you refering to? If your are refering to 8:20 in ...He is at FULL fatigue, and killing people at 1km with a 6.5mm in less than a dozen shots... If you were to be a rested position, and take your time (Like a marksman is supposed to be(Bouben's point)) you can easily hit people out to a kilometre in one shot. You don't even have to have much skill or focus like a real sniper is supposed to have. The system is quite forgiving compared to reality. If I am missing the point as well please tell me. If you are referring to my video, it isn't even meant to show accuracy. It is just in response to your claim that a lightly loaded soldier can't sprint around a block and engage a target in game, which is false. I find this isn't even the case with devbranch sway.

That vid wasn't actually to demonstrate that it is possible to shoot after being fatigued (though it does) but rather that the player is able to sprint reasonable distances, unlike claimed by live2reap and others. As for sway, The problem with dev branch is the ease of hitting long range targets. Sniping is childplay, which is why I don't like it. In 1.24 it was still possible but you had to have a bit more patience and focus into it than dev.

Stable 1.24.

Except what you discribe as impossible ingame, is infact possible. Soldiers in game are perfectly capable of sprinting around the block and engaging an enemy with the light gear you describe. And that is full out sprinting. I wouldn't advise anyone to sprint anywhere to engage an enemy. Jogging would a piece of cake for the arma soldier...

In arma 2 they used the clock, but to understand them you had to enable the clock difficulty option because it was pretty hard to tell which way was twelve oclock with the ai. They also used right left etc. and caridnal points. I swear in alpha they were using compass bearings occasionally and I was really happy with that. I believe its the best way. But now they only seem to use left right back and front... so yeah its kind of gotten worse. I wonder if this just slipped through the devs attention in one of the patches. Because it did used to be better in alpha or beta, and the devs did say one of their goals was to improve radio protocol...

Yes. not only does it encourage patience/caution but also teamwork. If you have to take your time to flank that guy, then you best have a teamate keeping hime pinned down while you move. The flanking run you describe, lve2reap, is that of run and gun games that don't put much focus on teamwork - don't get me wrong, they can be fun still, but thats not the type of gameplay that I play arma for. The fatigue system strikes quite a good balance between realism and options - you aren't actually forced to play a certain way. You do always have the option to drop that plate carrier and make that run around. But there will be consequences in other ways (you will die real fast without a plate carrier.)

Those are the types of things that keep me immersed. And at the same it makes for awesome gameplay experiences that never get old. And thats what I love about arma.

Yep agreed. Like I said I dont expect nor want BIS making ten different weapon sway. But I definitely do not feel the desire to force anyone to play anything. It is ideal to find a system tht works for everyone though. Yes pretty much. At least I know they deserved th kill for the outstanding shot or I deserved to die for exposing myself for far to long. As it is now though I can be playing using real procedures to avoid being shot (I up he sees me I'm down) and the other guy can be a piss poor shot and yet even at 800 mmetres I am the one who suffers. From what I gather that is not how firefights go down. Like Roshnak I am not opposed to vertical sway. I just don't want all my misses to be above or below, and none to be side to side because in reality I miss side to side as well.

But isn't pretty much every one in game armed with a plate carrier aside from opfor with their weird ass armour? And those that aren't do actually drop very fast. one 556 to an unarmoured person drops him. Its been said many time before, and by you as well of course: Problem is armour coverage and the reaction of the player/ai to a hit. Until those are fixed, what we got now is the best balance we can get between useful armour, realism and unforgiving mechanics imo.

He could be running up hill. That does tire you much quicker. But more likely its just exaggerating while playing the wrong game. Yes I probably sound elitist but JAndrews how you're complaining is like me coming to quake game and arguing for realism. I would most definitely be barking up the wrong tree, just as you are. If you really love every other aspect of arma except for the fatigue well maybe it is worth it to learn to make a mod that disables fatigue. Or hope BIS makes it a difficulty option. But I think a large majority of the community and most importantly, the devs themselves, want fatigue to have an actually effect in the game. So... yeah. You might be in the wrong place.

But why? If it doesn't add any challenge or difficulty to you what is the point of even having it besides to look pretty. This is where I am confused. If it doesn't add challenge or difficulty, why do you even want it (vertical or horizontal)? Ah. Correct environmental effects would shorten those ranges down. But it wouldn't make the actual process of aiming any harder. Take for example a shot at 800 metres. It is easy to adjust your zero to account for wind. Wind won't blow your shot more than a foot or so, if even. Now that that is done, you can sit down and plink away with the same ease as right now without wind. This is proven by ace. It had basic wind and it was still very easy to account for and shoot at ridiculous ranges. In reality a shot at 800 metres still takes a great bit of concentration and effort, even on a windless day, would you not agree. But with the decreased sway that is not so much the case ingame. TL: DR. Lack of environmental effects on ballistics is part of the reason that such unrealistic shots are possible but I don't think it is the big reason. The big reason is that the process of keeping your sights on target ingame is alot more difficult in real life. Agree/disagree? ---------- Post added at 02:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 AM ---------- Don't rule out options. I don't want to force anyone to play anyway. At the same time though I don't expect BI to make ten different versions of sway to satisfy every player. I want to try and find a system that achieves the result I want and the immersion someone like Rath wants. Yeah, but some of the most important things that have to go right, and some of the things that are most often wrong (from an unstabilized position), are hold and trigger pull. How do you deal with that in a video game? At some point we have to have some form of approximation of that if we want to have realistically challenging long range shooting. Yes Roshnak summed it up even better than I. Environmental effects are only small portion of what can go wrong that isn't represented in game. Alot is downto human error. How do we represent that without using exaggerated sway (especially for someone like you since you say the sway has no effect on your ability to aim). ---------- Post added at 02:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:03 AM ---------- AHH! That there is what I have been trying to get out of you all night long! But what do you think could be changed to achieve the challenge with out that gimmicky feeling. Simply decreasing the sway makes things to easy. Maybe increasse speed and decrease radius of sway? Other way around? Maybe have sway in perfectly straight line instead of arcs. Any thoughts? Maybe hold breath should be tweaked somehow. I am all ears! I am not against making the sway more vertical like you suggest but I have a feeling that it will lead to the same amount of "gimmickyness" as what we have in 1.24 stable, unless its intensity is also lowered (making it too easy). Anyhow I am going to sleep on it. Thanks for putting up with me Rath

I am asking you two simple questions. do you find it more challenging and what purpose, if any, does sway serve to you? Don't mean to be asking 21 questions but you are being unclear about your own personal feelings on the matter. If you feel that the sway is not challenging at all and serves no prupose (to you personally) see post 181: If it does add challenge and has purpose see post 176: Either the sway produces more realistic results - as in time to line up shots and accuracy of shots. Or it doesn't. I believe the former. You tell me which you believe. If you agree with me even a bit about realistic results, maybe we can work together to brainstorm a system that achieves the realistic results I want and the non annoying sway you want.

Actually I haven't hear that much of that. I think that the average wasteland/dayz player actually like depth and complexity alot more than you might give them credit for.

^ What am I misundertanding? Like I said it is still possible to overcome more sway (like in the youtube vids), but it is more of a challenge. Based on the bolded you seem not to think so. You come across as if no matter what sway the time and effort you need to use is the same. thus it serves no purpose. Sorry if I am being an idiot, but on one hand you say it adds no challenge, and yet on the other you say that it does serve a prupose. Which is it. Does it make shooting harder or does it not? So what purpose is that?

Well the sway itself is for another thread, but I do think that the way fatigue effects sway is good. As is, after a short jog sway increases significantly. And then drops of fairly quickly. This is good because even a short jog will get the blood pumping and increase respiratory levels, therefore decresing stability, if only for a short period. Before sway built up more slowly and this was bad becasue even after a few sprints, your aim was virtually unaffected. It really makes you think about whether it is worth it or not to sprint now.

Hehe yes I can see that. Honestly man there is huge disconnect there. I think you are one of only people that doesn't find the sway any harder to control and shoot through. It is totally possible to overcome, but not with the same ease. To be quite blunt, I just don't believe you when you say it is not any more difficult. Sorry, but it seems that you are just making this up to justify your argument that sway serves no purpose. Even the people that agree that sway is unrealistic are saying that it makes things more difficult. I hope you understand why I am sceptical. Of course if you can prove it, well, I guess you win. But even then you are the only one. For most everyone else it does make things more difficult and thus does serve a purpose.

I can understand that. Really?... Really? I think that like everyone else would disagree with that... I mean if that's honestly how you feel I don't really think I can take your argeuments seriously. Because it is quite obvious that more sway makes shooting harder... or am I misunderstanding you. Do you really disagree with this:

So when the sway was minimized and we are now able to easily hit targets at 2200 metres you don't think that is any less realistic than the stable sway where it was at least a bit of a challenge to hit targets at 1500 mteres. Please have an open mind. Are you really going to tell me that the sway doesn't produce any more realistic results. I am trying to work with you here... So basically 1.24 stable sway but with alot more vertical sway, but alot less horizontal sway would be fine? Would you not find the bobbing up and down weird and unrealistic though? And how would you make it so that people miss side to side - because in reality 90% of misses are too low and too high, while 10% too wide. In my experience misses are pretty much as often too far left and right as they are high and low (assuming the rifle is correctly zeroed). Generally there are more misses on the the bottom of the than the top (that's just what I notice when examining other people targets as well as my own). How would one make that happen in game. I don't think 10% horizontal sway would create that kind of pattern. Yes thats what I was wondering as well...

But do you also understand that that "minigame" does produce more realistic situations and limitations in game? Or do you disagree with that also? Okay. Does that mean that you actually are okay with the magnitude and difficulty of the sway? I am confused a bit because while you say you don't want to have to play a minigame to shoot, at the same time you are saying that you are okay with that exact minigame, as long as its more vertical vs horizontal. Am I misunderstanding you? See Rath there is there are two sides to this. My side where I want a realistic amount of challenge, and your side where you want it to look and feel realistic. Do you think it is possible to achieve both in a single system? If so, how? Particularly how would you personally go about making shooting require as much focus as in reality? I am interested if you have any ideas because maybe we could come up with a system that fully satisfies both parties.Have any ideas? Or do you think that you cannot have both the challenge and the looks at the same time?

I will not try to argue or convince you how the fatigue system helps add depth and complexity which then makes gameplay more interesting. I will simply agree: yes this is a pc game. Perhaps not the pc game for you though...

The thing is I think people misunderstand what "medium, close range and long range" is in reality. In reality long range shooting is in and around 1km. above 1500 metres is extreme. 2300 is ridiculous. So right now with the dev branch sway close medium and long range shots are easy, while extreme ranges require a bit of concentration but are more than possible for anybody to achieve. This is a problem in my eyes.