Friendly fire

[Warin 0]

4 Canadians killed by 'Friendly Fire'

Good god in heaven. Some PPCLI boys were in a

live fire execise IN a posted training area, and some chucklehead american pilot got his spurs caught in the pickle button and killed 4 of them, and wounded at least six more.

If anyone cares to read my past posts, I tend to tell people to take a step back and not slam the american forces for ineptitude. But when I read something like this, I start to wonder. This guy should be busted down to a private and detailed with peeling potatoes for the rest of his sorry ass military career. To me it smacks of some god damn bored cowboy wanting in on the actiopn and taking the first chance he got to 'get some'

Yeah, this guy has to live with what he is done, and I am pretty certain he's going to have a lot of problems with this... but that doesnt bring back the lives of people on his side.

Sorry..I just felt the need to rant...

[Tovarish 0]

CAS is dangerous for everyone involved, but usually more so for the enemy. Its a tough job, and mistakes can be made (btw it is not clear yet wether the pilot was truly at fault). If the pilot is found to be at fault, he will never fly again, and yes, imagine living with the knowledge that you've killed and maimed your own comrades in arms.

BTW this was allready discussed in a thread last night here

*edit* hmmm... this one has more info than the one I found last night, yep it looks like the pilot got a bit overzealous when he saw some muzzle flashes in the dark....

[Wobble 1]

hey warin.. first of all theUS is virtually the ONLY air support in the entire war for the most part.. so any air-ground mistakes will be from american pilots.. because thats the only kind of pilot up there.

second.. how about we just pull them out all together.. no air support.. let ground troops do everything, go into caves, through vallies.. etc etc.. im sure that would save LOTS of lives yes?.. wonder how many casualties would have occured if insted of bombing those caves we had to send teams of men into the to ferrit the taleban/queda out.. well who cares.. they would probably all be stupid americans anyway right?

third.. this topic has been posted already, so if ya want to piss and moan, why dont ya do it there.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ April 19 2002,06:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">.. they would probably all be stupid americans anyway right?

third.. this topic has been posted already, so if ya want to piss and moan, why dont ya do it there.<span id='postcolor'>

K let's not start a flame war over this, you shouldn't be taking it too personally, some troops from his country got killed because apparently a pilot saw some muzzle flashes and decided they were shooting at him. I can see him being upset about it. I am too but I'm pretty sure the pilot won't be getting back into a cockpit anytime soon. His career's down the tubes and he has to live with the knowledge of what his overzealousness did. IMHO it isn't entirely the pilot's fault, this is happening often enough that you can see there's a flaw with the system itself. There must be a better way to recognize friendly ground forces from the air.

[IceFire 0]

Jeez, I think it was probably just a dumb mistake.  Why the hell does everyone always feel like beating up on some guy because he made a stupid mistake.

I bet he already feels bad enough about it.

Hey remember weeks back when some of our Special Forces guys got killed because some airstrike they called in fell too short and they got killed.

These things happen.  It's a war.  I'm sure the pilot isn't feeling too good about this and to add insult to injury you want to punish him?  Jeez, I think the knowledge of his mistake would probably more punishment than he deserves.

These things happen alot more than we take notice.  I think a while ago a Chinese fighter jet collided with our spy plane, and remember our sub surfacing and killing a bunch of fishermen from either China or Japan.

This just goes to show, sometimes things just screw up.  We need to acknowledge that and move on instead of always trying to find someone to blame.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 19 2002,07:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">These things happen.  It's a war.  I'm sure the pilot isn't feeling too good about this and to add insult to injury you want to punish him?  <span id='postcolor'>

Excuse me? You don't think it warrants punishment? Oh no, he feels bad! Those troops are dead because he saw some flashes in the night! In his line of work, you just are not allowed to make a mistake like that and keep your job.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 19 2002,07:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jeez, I think it was probably just a dumb mistake.  Why the hell does everyone always feel like beating up on some guy because he made a stupid mistake.

I bet he already feels bad enough about it.

Hey remember weeks back when some of our Special Forces guys got killed because some airstrike they called in fell too short and they got killed.

These things happen.  It's a war.  I'm sure the pilot isn't feeling too good about this and to add insult to injury you want to punish him?  Jeez, I think the knowledge of his mistake would probably more punishment than he deserves.

These things happen alot more than we take notice.  I think a while ago a Chinese fighter jet collided with our spy plane, and remember our sub surfacing and killing a bunch of fishermen from either China or Japan.

This just goes to show, sometimes things just screw up.  We need to acknowledge that and move on instead of always trying to find someone to blame.<span id='postcolor'>

Yep.... These things happens.... in the STATES!!

[Warin 0]

You know Wobble, I should have expected that. Yeah..I missed the thread last night..I only went back to page 2, didnt see anything, so I posted. Sue me. Sheesh

My point wasnt that close air support is a bad thing. My point was that some guy went off half cocked. Now, if he'd set down and pointed out holes from the fire he was supposedly under, I wouldnt be upset that he dropped a bomb on my countrymen. After all, if some moron shoots at what has to be a friendly aircraft..they deserve to get fragged for the stupidity.

The point is they were in a designated training area, but instead of listening to the folks on the ground, he decided to be a cowboy about it.

When 'friendly fire' starts to account for more casualties that the enemy inflicts, it's time to start looking at why.

Espectro, friendly fire happens in all conflicts. Under the heat of fire, shit happens no matter what flag you wear. So please dont try to turn this into a US flame session. Leave it what it is... a 'godamn cowboy pilot needing to be busted back to recruit for doing some dumbass shit' thread.

Icefire... You can bet that heads rolled over the sinking of that japanese ship. One thing that the American Forces dont seem to look too kindly on is being made to look foolish. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many folks that are major fubar artists that stay in the service.

[Sheriff 0]

During this campaign Against Terrorism quite a number of civilians have been killed, More than the Pentagon will admit. Alot of Taliban forces were dead center in small villages. Second US Bombing wasn't really that effective against the deeper tunnel complexes and bunkers buried down deep in the Mountains where most of the regrouping Al-Qaeda and Taliban forces were, It's true the bombs would of collapsed tunnels on the surface. All these Videos, Images and Press meetings showing in detail all the bombs used is just plain Propaganda. Bush is investing Billions of dollars into the US Military and this War Against Terrorism yet he's not willing to send SAS forces and Friendly Afghani forces in where they could of made a difference, And gave Bin Laden the chance to escape into Pakistan. No doubt in the next following years Bin Laden will attack America again and who's to blaim then? Bin Laden has a huge organization with sleepers accross America, Europe and Asia. These friendly fire accidents should not of happend, Either it was HeadQuarters fault for not properly advising the pilot or something totally different, I just don't know!.

[Longinius 1]

Well, finding who is at fault is ofcourse necessary but it wont stop future incidents. As long as humans are envolved, errors will be made. Even fairly obvious ones like this one or the Hill 282 incident during the Korean war.

[Wobble 1]

Friendly Afghani forces in where they could of made a difference

remember.. we tried using them.. then when anaconda was launched the day of the first assualt 60% of them just decided they didnt feel like it and never showed up for the fight.. and they were supposed to seal the back door so retreating taleban and al-queda couldent escape.. but they left the door WIDE open.. so fuck them, they couldent get their shit together enough to even show up for the battle.

Yep.... These things happens.... in the STATES!!

considering in most every NATO conflict US forces make up the VAST majority of combat assets.. in afghanistan in excess of 90%.. the laws of probability dictate that if accedents happen or things go wrong it will be with US forces.. because thats the VAST majority of what is there..  its alot easier for other countries to not have incidents and mistakes like this simply because there are so few of them there (compared to the US contingent)  understand, you daft little twit?

or maby you dont understand the fact that since virtually all the airpower in the entire region is US and the extreme vast majority of troops are US.. that US missles, bombs and bullets are the VAST majority of what is flying.. so probability states that if a bullet is gonna go the wrong way its gonna be american.. or is that VASTLY over your head?

how many troops does your country have there.. what rock did you slither out from under anyway?.. yer data doesent say anything other than your age and your little webpage.. what village are you the idiot of?

[second_draw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 19 2002,08:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">.....or the Hill 282 incident during the Korean war.<span id='postcolor'>

Sounds interesting. What happened?

[second_draw 0]

To quite frank, I don't think it would be fair or valid of me to make a decision on this. How am i suppose to know the the pilot was fearing for his life or he (the pilot) just forgot that in this area there are friendly forces? I think this is practically the same for everyone else unless we (the public) get real hard facts from the Gov. which is unlikely considering the politics involved.

[Longinius 1]

http://www.britains-smallwars.com/korea/hill282.html

Basically a group of Brits had just taken a hill form the Koreans. They were under fierce mortar fire and infantry assaults. They called in airsupport and placed out the proper identification panels. The airstrike came but targeted them instead. They got napalmed and straffed beyond recognition. The Koreans charged after the friendly fire incident but the British survivors stood firm and fought back, those that still lived that is.

[IceFire 0]

That's another thing. The public always wants to blame immediately and see heads roll.

We can't make judgement until we get all the facts.

All we know is some pilot shot some canadien soldiers during a canadian training excercise when he should not have.

We still do not know all the factors involved. Who is to say he was some "cowboy" and decided to take matters into his own hands? How was he to know that he was not about to get shot down in the next instant if he did not react?

We will not know until we get the facts, and I think it's naiive of the public to automatically make assumptions until the whole story breaks open.

I know often enough the public thinks that they are entitled to see some heads roll immediately and want to place blame immediately just because we think we are entitled to all the info and whatever we think.

Gosh I dunno, it's 4:30 am, and I gotta sleep.

[second_draw 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Not forgotten, never<span id='postcolor'>

The sad thing is these events are being forgotten. I probably would have never known if it weren't for ppl like longinius. All those hundreds of pamphlets to some obsure disease or "how to vote" cards (Surely the politicians know that we are all just too busy/lazy to vote??) & etc. Why not a couple of "the battle of ..."? Worth a try?

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The sad thing is these events are being forgotten. I probably would have never known if it weren't for ppl like longinius. All those hundreds of pamphlets to some obsure disease or "how to vote" cards (Surely the politicians know that we are all just too busy/lazy to vote??) & etc. Why not a couple of "the battle of ..."?   Worth a try?<span id='postcolor'>

This is sort of going offtopic..but that's ok. It's one of my pet peeves.  Our education system doesnt seem to be geared to the teaching of history.  It seems to be more important to push people out with a minimum competency in the English language, an understanding of technology, and very little else.

It's amazing how much the younger people on the board seem surprised at when people tell them, especially since pretty much all of it can be gleaned from a short visit to the library... or if you are lazy, a google search.

Anyone else noticed this

[rpc007 0]

The pilot didn't know about the exercise and thought the Canadians were shooting at him, so he fired in self defense (according to the pilot...) without the proper permission

[Supah 0]

Its also called fratricide and "a Blue on blue incident" the term you chose to use is up to you

[madmike 0]

I think there must be a problme with the training that pilots are getting in the US forces. It happened in the gulf war and ten years later nothing has changed. Its destroying their image and making many troops more worried of the US planes than any others.

BTW I also agree that important events are being forgotten

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (rpc007 @ April 20 2002,00:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">so he fired in self defense (according to the pilot...) without the proper permission<span id='postcolor'>

Here's a question....how effective are small arms agains an F-16? Self defense? Sorry to say but this guy seems to just have wanted to get some action and he saw what he wanted to see...a bunch of Taliban shooting at him instead of what was really there. Really now, he would have a better chance of being struck by lightning...don't see how you can call it "self defense"

[scout 0]

a 0.5 bullet can bring down a plane and it did in recent wars (1982 is the last i know) and eve 0.3 managed to do this.

the problem of Blue-on-Blue is a familiar in any force and is especially big in CAS missions.

the biggest problem is the lack of common language between airforce and ground troops. a description from the ground may seem something else totally from the air.

there is a big problem with air-nav. even a seconds delay can translate into about 300 meters.

there is a big problem with the fluidity of the battlefield, a pilot can come to a field with intel that is already outdated, and if no one bothers to correct it, u have a blue-on-blue.

take every conflict and u'll have it somewhere!

[IceFire 0]

Tovarish, I really think we should not judge until we get more facts. Or even a testimonial from the pilot.

Unless you ARE a pilot how can someone know what it is like to fly that thing at those speeds.

I'm sure there could be alot of confusion that could happen at those speeds and height.

I'm not saying that it could be something like vertigo or something. But jeez, who know's what could have caused him to do that.

Why are you so sure that we was just some cocky pilot who wanted to be a cowboy?? We havn't even heard from the guy yet!

There must be so many factors that could have played into this that we do not know yet or have yet to hear about.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (IceFire @ April 20 2002,00:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why are you so sure that we was just some cocky pilot who wanted to be a cowboy??  We havn't even heard from the guy yet!<span id='postcolor'>

We've heard a lot from his commanders. I live in Ottawa, I go to school 10 mins away from the Department of National Defense, and this is all our news papers are talking about. He was told twice by his commander not to fire, and he did anyways.

[Frizbee 0]

Everyone thinks immediately "Oh my god, poor soldiers"

But its only rarely considered that in honest mistakes, or bad intelligence situations, that the Pilot who commited the Blue-on-Blue engagement will have to live for the rest of their life with the knowledge that they killed friendly forces.

That they would have that guilt, often because of a Intelligence stuff-up is just as bad as the fact that innocent soldiers were killed.