National pride

[Warin 0]

I've noticed that there tends to be a lot of flamage on this board (and others) where folks start boosting their own country and slagging others.

I know it's a good thing to believe in your country.  And to be patriotic.  But why does it seem to be acceptable to denigrate other folks to try to improve your arguements?

PLEASE dont turn this into a flame war.  I am looking for actual rational discussions and ideas here...

And on a related topic..

Canada ownz j00

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Canada ownz j00<span id='postcolor'>

Thanks Warin, now you've done it, every Yank, Limey, and Scandanavian on this forum will have a field day!

[Warin 0]

Maybe. But we know we're superior, right???

Hehehe.

[red oct 2]

the state of Ohio should be the dominate superpower nuff said

[Die Alive 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ April 08 2002,18:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the state of Ohio should be the dominate superpower nuff said<span id='postcolor'>

Drew Carey for President

-=Die Alive=-

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ April 09 2002,01:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But why does it seem to be acceptable to denigrate other folks to try to improve your arguements?

.

.

.

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Maybe. But we know we're superior, right???

Hehehe.<span id='postcolor'>

I dunno, you tell me. After all, you seem to be doing a fine job of it yourself

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Die Alive @ April 09 2002,01:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ April 08 2002,18:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the state of Ohio should be the dominate superpower nuff said<span id='postcolor'>

Drew Carey for President

-=Die Alive=-<span id='postcolor'>

can you guys beleive that Drew Carry was actually a Marine reserve?

and yeah, to Canadians,

Celine Dion is from your country. that's how stinking your country is (Assualt Can! here's one for you!!!

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 09 2002,02:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and yeah, to Canadians,

Celine Dion is from your country. that's how stinking your country is (Assualt Can! here's one for you!!!<span id='postcolor'>

Gotta give it to you Ralph, the US is much greater than Canada. After all, where else but in the US can a talented young black boy grow up to be a beautiful white woman? (Michael Jackson's from your country, nyah )

[Warin 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dunno, you tell me. After all, you seem to be doing a fine job of it yourself<span id='postcolor'>

Tovarish, my friend. May I introduce you to an interesting word. Irony.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Warin @ April 09 2002,02:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Tovarish, my friend. May I introduce you to an interesting word. Irony. <span id='postcolor'>

Yep, this thread's gonna be quite ironic allright, first I scold you for that then I'm flaming Raplhie here....bah I couldn't resist. Let's flame on, hope it stays half friendly, and.....anyone wanna take bets on how long before the mods close this down?

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ April 09 2002,02:09)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 09 2002,024)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">and yeah, to Canadians,

Celine Dion is from your country. that's how stinking your country is (Assualt Can! here's one for you!!!<span id='postcolor'>

Gotta give it to you Ralph, the US is much greater than Canada. After all, where else but in the US can a talented young black boy grow up to be a beautiful white woman? (Michael Jackson's from your country, nyah )<span id='postcolor'>

LOL!!!!!!!

at least he's does not do dumb over-action like Celine!

(actually a couple of weeks ago, in the thread called 'What music are you listening right now?, I put Celine Dion, and AssualtCan went beserk! )

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 09 2002,02:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">(actually a couple of weeks ago, in the thread called 'What music are you listening right now?, I put Celine Dion, and AssualtCan went beserk!   )<span id='postcolor'>

Of course! I think anyone over here who has any taste in music is shamed of her being Canadian, our only consolation is that she'f from the French side...oh boy....now I've done it, any Quebeckers in this forum will be after my skin and I live just about 40 mins from the bridge

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 09 2002,02:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">at least he's does not do dumb over-action like Celine!<span id='postcolor'>

BTW at least she still has a nose

[ralphwiggum 6]

hey, i like Celine Dion. her voice is unique.

now let me just look for some Quebeque ppl...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW at least she still has a nose <span id='postcolor'>

LOL!!

but he can dance better!!

[ralphwiggum 6]

ok..back to topic and it;s discussion.

i think nationalism is ok as long as you don't use it to compare your comuntry with others and try to evaluate whose better. just being proud of your country is ok, but if you start saying 'well, we are better because....' will be the starting point of flame war.

just being open-minded while having pride in your country is achievable, imo

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 09 2002,02:22)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">but he can dance better!!  <span id='postcolor'>

Ok, well let's compare their marriages...so far I think Celine's being a bit more successful, nevermind her husband is prolly old enough to be her grandfather.....but I can understand why the thing between Michael and Lisa Marie Presley didn't work out...really I do; she wanted to have kinds, and he....ummmm....wanted to have kids.....

BTW is it just me or is anyone else surprized to hell at this becoming a Michael Jackson vs. Celine Dion thread?!?

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ April 09 2002,02:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">BTW is it just me or is anyone else surprized to hell at this becoming a Michael Jackson vs. Celine Dion thread?!?<span id='postcolor'>

well. there's the another aspect of nationalism vs. nationalism.

ppl try to condense their nationalism into one object. Like Michael Jackson versus Celine Dion..ok Celine is not representation of Canada, but just for this time, let me make my point.

i guess this way, ppl are trying to convince themselves that their country has some product that is superior. again, this is another good example of when nationalism goes bad.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 09 2002,02:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ok..back to topic and it;s discussion.<span id='postcolor'>

fair enough . Well, for me this is kind of interesting because I'm half Russian, half Cuban, and I'm a Canadian citizen. I'm very proud of all three, and if you asked me to choose one over the other I wouldn't be able to. Of course, if you asked me which country I'd prefer to live in at the moment I'd say Canada. Russia is corrup to the bone, and Fidel Castration is still trying to make a very flawed regime work. I still hold a Cuban citizenship (I have dual Cuban-Canadian citizenship, mostly for ease of travel "back home"). Way back when I used to hold dual Cuban-Soviet citizenship....but well...the number of people holding Soviet citizenship has gone down a bit since '93....

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 09 2002,02:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i guess this way, ppl are trying to convince themselves that their country has some product that is superior. again, this is another good example of when nationalism goes bad.<span id='postcolor'>

You mean Celine Dion and Michael Jackson are the two best examples of superior products we could find for our respective countries? *shudder* Ralph my man, I gotta say, if that's the case, we both suck!!

[ralphwiggum 6]

hhmm...interesting...yeah..i know you were a commie...oopss....i mean been to Russia, Cuba and now in Canada.

funny thing is that like you, there seems to be more and more ppl who are becoming multi-backgrounded. For example, Jessica Alba from TV show Dark Angel is 4 heritages(i heard) French, Hispanic and some other.(sorry). ppl usually distinguish her as 'American' but what is 'American'?

and if we can't define someone to some origin, how can we call/have something called nationalism? seems like these days, it's geared more towards geographical restraint rather than blood/family restraint.

[ralphwiggum 6]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tovarish @ April 09 2002,02:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 09 2002,02:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i guess this way, ppl are trying to convince themselves that their country has some product that is superior. again, this is another good example of when nationalism goes bad.<span id='postcolor'>

You mean Celine Dion and Michael Jackson are the two best examples of superior products we could find for our respective countries? *shudder* Ralph my man, I gotta say, if that's the case, we both suck!! <span id='postcolor'>

LOL!!!!...nah....just bad examples!!!

I guess better comparison would be candian bacon vs. USDA selected Ham.

[Tovarish 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (RalphWiggum @ April 09 2002,02:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I guess better comparison would be candian bacon vs. USDA selected Ham. <span id='postcolor'>

lol Speaking of Canadian Bacon, that's the title of a very funny comedy based around US/Canadian rivalries and the respective stereotypes between the two...hilarious stuff, you should rent it "Surrender pronto, or we'll flatten Toronto!"

As for me being a commie, yeah, I was, just like a millions of other Cuban schoolchildren from kindergarten to grade 6 I was fed all this bullshit about how the US was the cause of all our troubles and how we were going to change the world by spreading communism. We had a few "cheers" we yelled out in school after singin the national anthem in the morning, and they pretty much went like this: "Patria o muerte, venceremos!!" or "Socialismo o muerte venceremos!!"

(Fatherland/Socialism or death, we will overcome). Sound familiar? It's almost like the Nazi obsession for dying "for the Fatherland" or the same shit that's causing Palestinians to go blow themselves up.

The moral of the story is Nationalism is a tool that governments use too easily to manipulate us to do their bidding, so watch out next time your government tries to sell something to you by touching on your patriotism...step back and take an objective look at the situation. All of us who post here live in democracies, so we have the advantage of doing that.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

what can I do, it is in my blood !

The question should be: "can national pride be helpful in any way!"

I say not often but sometimes. The french for example, due to extensive national pride, have implemented laws to protect and foster their unique culture. This is done for music, art a.s.o.

Actually a god idea. I wish Germany would be more like that!

[USSoldier11B 0]

Tovarish you are Cuban? I've been trying to guess your nationality for a while, but I could never tell because your political views are so diverse.

[Tovarish 0]

Yep, Cuban, also spent a good part of my childhood in Russia and the Ukraine aka back then as the USSR. Never managed to get that pain-in-the-ass alphabet down though I still read Russian at like a grade 2 level.As far as my political views go, yes, I guess you'd have to say they are diverse, they're pretty much shaped by the different systems i've lived under I guess you could say I still have some of the socialism that I grew up with in me, eg. in Cuba everyone has the right to free health care and post-secondary education. I really wish I could have the second right now as a college student paying tuition out of my own pocket and working part time....but oh well.But if you say anything critical about the government, even jokingly, you're a "contrarevolucionario"...basically an enemy of the people. Western countries don't  often guarantee you free health care or university, but you can speak your mind freely, and that's possibly the right that's most important to me. I remember an old "underground" Cuban joke that deals with this:

A Cuban and an American are drinking at a bar, both being very nationalistic (ironic eh?) they start boasting about their political systems.

The American says "I can call the secretary of president Ronald Reagan, set up a meeting with Ronald Reagan...and I...can tell Ronald Reagan...right to his face...whatever the hell I think of Ronald Reagan"

The Cuban  says "Well, I can call the secretary of El Commandante Fidel Castro, set up a meeting with Fidel Castro...and I...can tell Fidel Castro...right to his face...whatever the hell I think of Ronald Reagan"

Now the sad thing is, that joke could potentially land a Cuban in jail for two years.

My experiences with governments have caused me to become very careful when it comes to putting my trust in politicians or figures of authority. To me, governments are just like money: necessary evils