Mid east

[Identity 0]

Im not sure if this has been said yet but anyway:

You all know the saying "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it"

In Northern Ireland there was 30 years of terrorism and troubles. The most progress was made when the two sides talked.

[ACEJim 0]

No, Hitler was enough of a soldier to take virtually the whole of Europe in a matter of months. He virtually invented modern mechanised warfare in the process.

He made some crazy tactical decisions after this and he underestimated his enemy. And he never expected the UK to fight on. It seemed crazy to him.

I knew someone was going to call me a racist sooner or later... pathetic.

[ACEJim 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 04 2002,22:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jesus what history book are you reading from and what school system uses it??

Hitler did NOT stop for some little magnaminious decision to let the doughboys go back to England. He stopped when Georing convinced him in an effort to prove the Luftwaffe's worth, that they could do it themselves...when it became painfully clear that they couldn't and Hitler realized they were all escaping he ordered the tanks in....just one of a series of blunders made by "Der Fuhrer".<span id='postcolor'>

By what higher power do you presume to know exactly what hitler was thinking at that time?

And I didn't read that in a history text book. It's a theory several historians have come up in order to explain Hitlers seemingly bizarre behaviour, based on his views expressed in Mein Kampf, his actions then and interviews with Hitler's adides and officers in the Wermacht.

[RedRogue 0]

Oh my isn't there alot to cover now. Well this will probably be very disorganized but here we go.

Scout-

You are correct, in 1917 the British promised a large portion of the area of Palestine to the Jewish community for support in WW1, (Everyone always thinks the Jewish community has deep pockets) This was known as the Balfour agreement. However the major problem that arises is the British had just previously promised the

same land to the Palestinian people for an independent state if they would rebel against the Ottoman empire and help the British defeat them, as the Ottoman empire had allied with Germany in WW1. The Palestinian people did revolt and it was a significant aid to the defeat of the Ottoman empire in WW1.

After WW1 Britian put the issue on the back burner hoping it would go away someday I assume. However after WW2 European Jews and Jews that where being persecuted in America began to settle into areas of Palestine citing the Balfour agreement. The British couldn't stop the influx of settlers or control the rising tensions between the two ethnics.

In the end they dumped the whole issue on American President Harry Truman to decide what to do. Fortunately or unfortunately depending on your view, Truman decided to back a formation of the state of Israel most likely because of public sympathy of Jewish treatment in WW2, and basically we where and still are ignorant of Middle Eastern culture or even existance. After the fact we have been bound to aid Israel for all this time, for that decision being right or wrong was our decision.

So if the British hadn't promised the same land to two peoples that have historically been unable to ever coexist, and then doing nothing to resolve the issue where would we be? An unanswerable question as that was the past and this is now.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">{sic} Heck rouge.

Where were you in 1993 when while there were peace talks, suicide bombers blowing themselves up in busses? Was it from dispair too? If Arafat wants peace so much why is there the worst kind of anti-semitic stuff in school books? From the "happy" years of 1993-1995? Why in his first speech in Gaza he announce that he's gonna "throw the jews to the sea"? Why, while we educated our people for peace they did it for war? Why did u wake up now? why didn't u wake when we were been slaughtered and didnt respond? It amazes me that when u hear about an attack thats targeted on israeli civilians all u hear is some kind of a low buzzz, but when we try to go after the shooters u scream on top of yer lungs on every scratch we do. What do u say about that church?

Instead of being angry about those guys, who are using the church as a gun position so we couldnt react, and all i hear is "How dare these Israelis siege the church!" Oh, and the priest they said we killed? I've never seen such a live corpse.

---scout <span id='postcolor'>

In 1993 this forum didn't exist so it would have been hard to say anything about those events where you would have seen it. And all that was an intresting source of debate then, just not here nor online.

As for the Church of Nativity, the gunmen there have violated a religious site, a religion which I belong to. BUT, its just a building which can always be repaired. I wouldn't care if the Israeli army stormed the church an eliminated the gunmen IF it but absolutely 0 bystanders in harm's way. I'm very sure its hard to take fire from a building and be unable to return fire, but doing so would be careless if you couldn't prevent civilian casualties. Police officers have to do it all the time in stand offs.

That may seen contrary from my previous stance on unneccesary public destruction by Israeli armor. But the property means little if a hostile force is present. My biggest beef with the tanks carelessly running over vehicles is how could they be sure there aren't people in them? I what little footage I've seen (which I cannot produce so it lays on the little value of my word) the armor was unbuttoned (not something you do in a hot zone) and just did it to do it.

Avon-

Objectivity is a funny word as it is impossible to actually obtain for any person in the world about this right now. Everyone has feelings about the issue. My view of objectivity is the willingness to see all sides of an issue without undo dismissal of what goes against your own ideology.

That is where it is different between you and me. You are actually living this tragic affair, while here I am thousands of miles away. Your thoughts and opinions are strongly influenced over your emotions of fear for yourself, fear for your children and family. Feelings of anger towards the group of people that have spawned these murderers. Attachments to your community and way of life which are being disrupted by these events. I have none of these, but that does not leave me without my own feelings to distort my thinking.

Perhaps I've been too vocal for the Palestinian side of this. But over here you read any local/nation or western media and its all pro Israel for the most part, with little word to what the Palestinian people are having to endure. I tend to feel for the underdog as the saying goes.

The suicide bombers in no way are justified in their choice of targets. Groups like Hamas should be eleminated, and if hard backable evidence of Arafat's envolvement could be produced and made available to foreign powers for examination then I would be able to put more credit into Israeli claims of his actions. If Hamas and the like would have ever tried to target military assets then perhaps they could be validated, but they haven't. All they have done is to terror bomb civilians. But I find it very very hard to believe that a majority of Palestinian people are involved in this. I would think that most of them are just trying to go about their lifes. Making the whole pay for what the smaller group has done will never and has never worked. All it has ever done is brew anger and hostility toward the punisher.

Personally I just never see an end to this ancient conflict.

[Akira 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 04 2002,23:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 04 2002,22:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jesus what history book are you reading from and what school system uses it??

Hitler did NOT stop for some little magnaminious decision to let the doughboys go back to England. He stopped when Georing convinced him in an effort to prove the Luftwaffe's worth, that they could do it themselves...when it became painfully clear that they couldn't and Hitler realized they were all escaping he ordered the tanks in....just one of a series of blunders made by "Der Fuhrer".<span id='postcolor'>

By what higher power do you presume to know exactly what hitler was thinking at that time?

And I didn't read that in a history text book. It's a theory several historians have come up in order to explain Hitlers seemingly bizarre behaviour, based on his views expressed in Mein Kampf, his actions then and interviews with Hitler's adides and officers in the Wermacht.<span id='postcolor'>

Wasn't calling YOU a rascist....The neo-history that you are quoting just seems skewed towards Hitler, and makes allowances for him, and seems to try to assume that Hitler was some a-brilliant tactician or b-had a soft spot for the english.

And I certainly can't believe any of that....

And I get my history from the WW2 histories and articles I have read and researched....also taken from interviews.

[Supah 0]

There is allot you can say about the current situation and one of them is that since the start of this most recent israeli offensive there have been no suicide bombing. So, though long term its not the solution short term isnt doing so bad. And as for middle east culture .... how cultured is thinking you can solve a problem by blowing yourself up in busses and purposfully killing woman children and other noncombatants. Israel doesn't intentionally fire on non-combatants and those people you see being arrested by the IDF arent your run of the mill greengrossers.

[ACEJim 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 04 2002,23:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 04 2002,23:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Akira @ April 04 2002,22:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Jesus what history book are you reading from and what school system uses it??

Hitler did NOT stop for some little magnaminious decision to let the doughboys go back to England. He stopped when Georing convinced him in an effort to prove the Luftwaffe's worth, that they could do it themselves...when it became painfully clear that they couldn't and Hitler realized they were all escaping he ordered the tanks in....just one of a series of blunders made by "Der Fuhrer".<span id='postcolor'>

By what higher power do you presume to know exactly what hitler was thinking at that time?

And I didn't read that in a history text book. It's a theory several historians have come up in order to explain Hitlers seemingly bizarre behaviour, based on his views expressed in Mein Kampf, his actions then and interviews with Hitler's adides and officers in the Wermacht.<span id='postcolor'>

Wasn't calling YOU a rascist....The neo-history that you are quoting just seems skewed towards Hitler, and makes allowances for him, and seems to try to assume that Hitler was some a-brilliant tactician or b-had a soft spot for the english.

And I certainly can't believe any of that....

And I get my history from the WW2 histories and articles I have read and researched....also taken from interviews.<span id='postcolor'>

It's not neo-history... whatever that is, it's fact taken from Hitlers various speeches and writings...

"In Mein Kampf Hitler declared that: "The external security of a people in largely determined by the size of its territory." If he won power Hitler promised to occupy Russian land that would provide protection and lebensraum (living space) for the German people. This action would help to destroy the Jewish/Marxist attempt to control the world: "The Russian Empire in the East is ripe for collapse; and the end of the Jewish domination of Russia will also be the end of Russia as a state."

To achieve this expansion in the East and to win back land lost during the First World War, Hitler claimed that it might be necessary to form an alliance with Britain and Italy. An alliance with Britain was vitally important because it would prevent Germany fighting a war in the East and West at the same time."

And...

"Although other races would resist this process, the Aryan race had a duty to control the world. This would be difficult and force would have to be used, but it could be done. To support this view he gave the example of how the British Empire had controlled a quarter of the world by being well-organised and having well-timed soldiers and sailors."

This is from a summary of Mein Kampf on a British educational website. It's completely objective as far as I know.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERmein.htm

[ACEJim 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ April 04 2002,23:04)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So, though long term its not the solution short term isnt doing so bad. And as for middle east culture .... how cultured is thinking you can solve a problem by blowing yourself up in busses and purposfully killing woman children and other noncombatants.<span id='postcolor'>

"There is allot you can say about the current situation and one of them is that since the start of this most recent israeli offensive there have been no suicide bombing. "

And how long do you think that's going to last?

"Israel doesn't intentionally fire on non-combatants and those people you see being arrested by the IDF arent your run of the mill greengrossers."

They opened fire on a BBC film crew, shot at a peace demonstration and have killed or wounded hundreds of Palestinian stone throwers (often children) that pose no threat at all to their MBTs and APCs.

[Nagual 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 04 2002,21:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Idiots are fools like you who can't distinguish acts of evil from good.<span id='postcolor'>

fucking Hell avon, are you going to start mixing religious fundementalisim with your bloody rascist bigotry? Wait, let me guess, jews cannot act out fundementalist behaviour, only arabs huh. Hmmmm. I have a good friend who is an upstanding citizen of the jewish community in aust, but he is still as much a rasict and bigot as you, some things dont change, especially when you are wearing blinkers.

To the person who said "hitting head agaisnt keyboard", imagine how the arabs feel, maybe they get frustrated enough to pick up rocks, or blown themsleves up.

Make me the fool anyday, a most advantageous position in a world of self-important shit.

[ACEJim 0]

Looks like Isreal has annoyed it's only best friend...

Dubya:

"Consistent with the Mitchell plan, Israeli settlement activity in occupied territories must stop, and the occupation must end through withdrawal to secure and recognise boundaries consistent with United Nations Resolutions 242 and 338.

Israel should also show a respect - a respect for and concern about the dignity of the Palestinian people who are, and will be, their neighbours. It is crucial to distinguish between the terrorists and ordinary Palestinians seeking to provide for their own families.

The Israeli government should be compassionate at checkpoints and border crossings, sparing innocent Palestinians daily humiliation.

Israel should take immediate action to ease closures and allow peaceful people to go back to work.

I ask Israel to halt incursions into Palestinian-controlled areas and begin the withdrawal from those cities it has recently occupied."

Let's see how quickly Sharon jumps...

[Mjřlner 0]

What scares me , is the strongly media supported image of young israelies and palestinians who keep on repeating the same rhetorics that their parents and grandparents did, like f*cking Pavlovian dogs.

It's so depressing to see young people my own age, thinking and speaking only about war, about evil, about death, about possesions (land), about "traditional" enemies.

About who "was here first." It's so unbelievable to me, that process of thought. That it can come to that, makes you wonder if these two socalled "religious" peoples, have any clue what religion is all about.

Blah, blah, blah, God this and Allah that and  bang! you're dead!?  

How depressing to see people caught in patterns of thought, living in war and despair for decades, and seemingly not learning anything. Not changing anything.

How are they taught to think? What do they teach their children?

Is "God"? someone you look for to support your right to kill your neighbour?

I would like to see more of those that think in another way.

It's rare that the media shows anything that inspires hope.

[Mjřlner 0]

[double post apology inserted]

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (theavonlady @ April 04 2002,23:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 05 2002,00<!--emo&)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What patch of thin air did you pluck that from?<span id='postcolor'>

Here's a large (1.6MB) PDF document, with almost nothing but direct quotes. Start reading:

http://www.zoa.org/pubs/ArafatsCulture.pdf

I gave the URL earlier.<span id='postcolor'>

Zionist Organization of America? Come on it is as reliable and unbiased as reading a Serbian newspaper on the war i Kosovo.

It's not that I am saying that they made those quotes up, but more that they are taken out of context and facts probably witheld.

Please look at the main site http://www.zoa.org and tell me that it isn't a propaganda newsletter...

It is about as unbiased as this (they have quotes too! ):

http://www.palestineremembered.com/

[Warin 0]

Wow, can  you feel the love in here? [/sarcasm]

It's really easy for all of us to sit on our high horses and condemn one side or the other for what is going on.  And as insane as Avon can often make me with her rather right skewed views, she is the ONLY one of us that has even the remotest idea of what it's like to live there and now.  Unless there are some closet palistinians on the board who arent talking. And as such we should tend to cut her some slack.  After all, look at how many americans were frothing at the mouth for Al Queda blood after 9/11. She is merely upset and angry (and IMNSHO righfully so) that she cant do the things most of us take for granted without the worry of being blown to bits.

Both sides are doing some deplorable things. That's the nature of armed conflict.  It would be really nice if we could all 'get along' but the racial and religious hatreds and conflicts are deeply rooted, and as such arent about to just 'get better'  

Someone suggested that the israelis are being heavy handed shooting at children who throw rocks at tanks.  But the sad fact is that throwing a stone and throwing a bomb can often look a heck of a lot alike.  Personally, I question the sanity of ANYONE that would throw ANYTHING at an MBT.  I am not condoning the shoot first ask questions later attitude, but it is at least understandable.

I for one am of the belief that only outside intervention will slow down the conflict.  Neither side is objective enough to control the situation.  Hopefully something like that will happen before it's too late.

[Longinius 1]

"Maybe brave,but very stupid,also whiners.People in middle-east think their life is bad,it is to a point.But africa has it worst then anyone.Middle-east people think that if they can't live happy they have to go f***** up someone else life."

Foxer, name one african nation where the land is occupied and the occupier is supplied and funded by the US.

Another thing to remember is that middle-east opposition / terrorists have cash, being funded by rich oil magnates. There is not much of that going around in Africa. Given a chance however they to will strike back, like in Somalia. There are similarities between the men and women that ran straight into gunfire and the terrorists that flew the planes into WTC: they were to pissed off / dedicated to care about their own life.

[theavonlady 2]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (denoir @ April 05 2002,03:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Zionist Organization of America? Come on it is as reliable and unbiased as reading a Serbian newspaper on the war i Kosovo.<span id='postcolor'>

In this particular document, you can verify 99.99% of the contents independently, as they're nothing but direct quotes from all the sources listed, almost all non-Israeli or, more specifically, Arabic. That was my main point in presenting this particular document.

Yes, the ZOA can present facts, too, amazing as it may seem.

[Longinius 1]

I just read an article by Lev Grinberg. Mr Grinberg is doctor of sociology and in charge of the Humphrey institutet at Ben Gurion-university. The article was entitled "When is Sharon going to be arrested". The article raises the following questions.

Before you go apeshit, he condems terrorist attacks. He is not an Arafat fanboi. He does believe however (and I agree) that who ever is in charge in Israel is responsible for the actions taken by that nation. Arafat however does not have control over all Palestinians and all suicide bombers. We can be quite sure Sharon has quite firm control of all airstrikes and tank attacks. And yes, the guy who wrote the article is a Jew and Sharon IS his primeminister.

Article in Swedish here:http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/debatt/story/0,2789,152835,00.html (hopefully those interested can babelfish it or something)

Who is to be held responsible for the intentional killing of about 100 Palestinians?

Who should be jailed for the killing of more than 120 Palestinian paramedics?

Who should be judged for the killing - intentional or otherwise - of more than 1 200 Palestinians and the collective punishment of more than 3 million civilians under the last 18 months?

Who should be put before an international court and charged with the illegal settlements on occupied Palestinian land and the last 35 years of refusal to follow the decisions made by the UN?

[scout 0]

thats crap! if u cant control your people u cant be a leader. heck the first things Ben-Gurion did in israel was to disarm the undergrounds, even if it did bring israel to the brink of civil war.

if u cant control your people it means you are not ready to be a leader.

and if u saw CNN and such yesterday u would see that Arafat sponsored these acts, willingly, which means he didnt want to stop these acts in the first place.

again i say. u only look at what happened the last year or so.

what about what happened since 1993? when there was so called "peace"?

[Longinius 1]

"thats crap! if u cant control your people u cant be a leader. heck the first things Ben-Gurion did in israel was to disarm the undergrounds, even if it did bring israel to the brink of civil war.

if u cant control your people it means you are not ready to be a leader."

Bullshit. When your organisation is made up by independent cells and factions within factions its pretty damn hard to control every individual or group of individuals. Even if he did order it and he is responsible that does not answer the question. Who is responsible for the actions done by the Israelis?

"and if u saw CNN and such yesterday u would see that Arafat sponsored these acts, willingly, which means he didnt want to stop these acts in the first place."

Don't you know that everything on TV doesnt have to be true? Its not like TV is some automatic truth filter.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ April 05 2002,08:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Bullshit. When your organisation is made up by independent cells and factions within factions its pretty damn hard to control every individual or group of individuals. Even if he did order it and he is responsible that does not answer the question. Who is responsible for the actions done by the Israelis?<span id='postcolor'>

And of course the palestinians are organized into little independently acting factions and cells is because it makes it impossible for the israelis to dismantle their machine of resistance. Small cells is the standard tactic when resisting overwhelming forces.

[scout 0]

these "small cells" are the sign of a terrorist organization, a would-be state cant stand that people would do things that are not approved with the government, especially if it has any impact on its relation with other countries.

what ur saying is that Arafat cant control his people to a minimal degree. that means he is not fit to be a chief of state.

AND the documents are a fact. they show that Arafat was sponsoring terror even before the last 18 months.

im sorry that it does go hand in hand with the reality as u want it to be.

[Supah 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ACEJim @ April 05 2002,00:36)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">4--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (supah @ April 04 2002,234)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So, though long term its not the solution short term isnt doing so bad. And as for middle east culture .... how cultured is thinking you can solve a problem by blowing yourself up in busses and purposfully killing woman children and other noncombatants.<span id='postcolor'>

"There is allot you can say about the current situation and one of them is that since the start of this most recent israeli offensive there have been no suicide bombing. "

And how long do you think that's going to last?

"Israel doesn't intentionally fire on non-combatants and those people you see being arrested by the IDF arent your run of the mill greengrossers."

They opened fire on a BBC film crew, shot at a peace demonstration and have killed or wounded hundreds of Palestinian stone throwers (often children) that pose no threat at all to their MBTs and APCs.<span id='postcolor'>

Those stone throwing kids may have been the one's who got hit but did u ever stop to wonder wether those were the ones they were aiming for? A few months back there was this incident where a few stonethrowers got shot by a israeli squad. Turns out that behind that group of stonethrowers there were people shooting at the soldiers.

As for the camera crew .... dont go to a "warzone" if you dont want to get hurt. The journalists are more then aware of this fact and i seriously doubt that the IDF has started shooting journalists on sight. Dont make incidents into more then they are.

As for how long this lul in the suicide bombings is going to last ..... who knows? till the palestinians have again enough time on their hands to unleash more of their terror against non combatants? Their killing of non combatants isnt incidental but structured and is their main strategy. Israel is now going through their ranks and their headquarters. A

Allready there are rumors of direct evidence of arafat's connection with the terrorism. Lets see how long people still want to support him then. Allthough recently there has been a sickening trend in western europe to think that the poor and the so called "downtroden" are always right .... so even if arafat owns up to planning, sponsoring and commiting acts of terrorism himself on CNN some people will sooner or later find an excuse for him.

Like Bush said (first time i agree with the man) his current situation is of his own making. He had the chance to be a factor for peace he choose to be a factor for war in not trying to stop the terror. Now its time to pay the piper.

[Oligo 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ April 05 2002,08:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">these "small cells" are the sign of a terrorist organization, a would-be state cant stand that people would do things that are not approved with the government, especially if it has any impact on its relation with other countries.

what ur saying is that Arafat cant control his people to a minimal degree. that means he is not fit to be a chief of state.

AND the documents are a fact. they show that Arafat was sponsoring terror even before the last 18 months.

im sorry that it does go hand in hand with the reality as u want it to be.<span id='postcolor'>

Every resistance group has been organized like that. Like the french resistance for example, but then again the germans did call them terrorists so maybe they were. Also the jewish underground resistance groups were organized like this and I bet the brits called them terrorists. Any freedom fighters are called terrorists by the opposing force. The name they are called in history after the conflict is over, is determined by the winner of that conflict.

Actually it makes no difference if the israelis get rid of Arafat or not. There will still be terror bombings. Whatever the israelis do, regardless of how much violence they use, regardless of population transfers, some desperate palestinians will still strike back. Such is the power of human determination.

Only peace (the terms of which Israel cannot unilaterally dictate) can slow and eventually stop the flood of terror.

[Longinius 1]

"these "small cells" are the sign of a terrorist organization, a would-be state cant stand that people would do things that are not approved with the government, especially if it has any impact on its relation with other countries."

So, by that definition the French resistance during WWII was also a terrorist organisation. Just like the Norweigan freedom fighters during the German occupation. I disagree. Independant cell organisations are not by default terrorists. Its a means of survival, nothing else.

"what ur saying is that Arafat cant control his people to a minimal degree. that means he is not fit to be a chief of state."

Yes, he can. But he cannot control everyone even if he wanted to.

"AND the documents are a fact. they show that Arafat was sponsoring terror even before the last 18 months.

im sorry that it does go hand in hand with the reality as u want it to be."

Have you seen these documents? Were you there when they were found? No? Then don't believe it blindly. Besides, that STILL is not the point. The point is who is responsible for the warcrimes commited by the Israelies. Comment on that and don't keep commenting on Arafat. We all know he supports terrorists.

[scout 0]

Actualy my cousin was in the squad that captured them, so im inclined to believe him

he said there were about 50 crates ready for burning..... some of them were already burning.

and again, did these french or jewish cells remain when france was liberated? or when israel became a state? NO.

and thats a fact.

Arafat has his own security forces, had he wanted to stop them he could have done that, one way or another.

and dont tell me thats impossible, when he wanted to, he stopped 'em outright.

and dont tell me that he cant do that, he had 17 months before.