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Longinius

Mid east

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 09 2002,02:o8)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Perhaps you should not have cornered yourself into aligning with OBL.<span id='postcolor'>

I totally support your mission of hunting down and killing as many terrorists as you can find.  However, I'm not convinced that you will ever be able to get rid of them as fast as new ones appear.  So, in addition to the very important task you face, there is also the task of eliminating the breeding grounds.

You seemed to agree with this notion, but put Islamist religious schools at the top of your list of such breeding grounds.  I suggested that Israeli settlement and occupation of Palestinian territory and refugee camps are probably a more dangerous source of tomorrow's terrorists.  However, for expressing this opinion you accused me of being an ally of Osama Bin Laden.  It didn't matter much to you that US leaders have shared this same opinion for decades.

You should not be so convinced that your ideas on fighting terrorism are better than everyone else's and that everyone with a different opinion is your enemy.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 09 2002,05:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You seemed to agree with this notion, but put Islamist religious schools at the top of your list of such breeding grounds.<span id='postcolor'>

As long as you understand that "Islamist" is the current catchphrase for the fundamentalist/Wahhabi strain of vermin masquerading as Muslims. Wouldn't want anyone to think that I consider Islamic schools in general to be problematic.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 09 2002,05:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I suggested that Israeli settlement and occupation of Palestinian territory and refugee camps are probably a more dangerous source of tomorrow's terrorists.<span id='postcolor'>

For Israelis, maybe. It seems pretty clear that the threat to the West comes from the "Islamists."

 

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 09 2002,05:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">However, for expressing this opinion you accused me of being an ally of Osama Bin Laden.<span id='postcolor'>

Take it easy, Superguy. I haven't accused you of anything. As previously stated I found it surprising that you didn't take the opportunity to disavow OBL's claim. Unless you're in the "Yes, 9/11 was a tragedy BUT..." camp. I really, really hope you're not.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 09 2002,05:56)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You should not be so convinced that your ideas on fighting terrorism are better than everyone else's and that everyone with a different opinion is your enemy.<span id='postcolor'>

It takes a lot more than differing opinions or words exchanged on a video game forum to classify someone as my "enemy." Chill out.

Semper Fi

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Nov. 09 2002,04:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That is why America is bound to lose in the long run (in terms of damage). Terrorism is flexible so you don't counter that by sitting there with your arms crossed saying "NO, i don't wanna".<span id='postcolor'>

There's really only one fitting reply:

"...so be it, until victory is America’s and there is no enemy, but Peace!"

Semper Fi

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I took a cab home yesterday from work. The driver was from Israel and former soldier in the IDF. He had fled Israel because he found the situation unbearable. He hated the Palestinians, he knew they hated him and he knew why: religon and politics. He wanted peace for his country but he couldn't see past the hate, he saw no solutions, so he left.

I think that says a lot. It has gone beyond right or wrong and it all boils down to hatred now. On both sides. A conflict like that isnt easily ended. Especially when the people don't want to compromise or give in.

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Too wrongs dont make a right.

That basically explains waht is going on in the Middle East. Regardless who was the first to strike, both sides are attacking now, and each side is determined to tbe the winner.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Nov. 09 2002,12:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">He hated the Palestinians, he knew they hated him and he knew why: religon and politics.<span id='postcolor'>

If he said nothing about Israeli settlement construction in Palestinian territory, that was supposed to be halted 9 years ago by the Oslo Accord but more than doubled since, then he knows little about why he is hated.

If he said nothing about using live ammo on kids, then he knows little about why he is hated.

If he said nothing about mass round-ups, torture, summary execution without charge of Palestinian prisoners, then he knows little about why he is hated.

If he said nothing about targetting a Palestinian militant by using a 1-tonne bomb on a crowded residential appartment building, then he knows little about why he is hated.

If he said nothing about pregnant women dying while giving birth at Israeli checkpoints, then he knows little about why he is hated.

If he said nothing about the refugees who work in Israel as maids and gardeners at the very same homes they built but were expelled from 54 years ago, then he knows little about why he is hated.

If he said nothing about continual Israeli pilgrimages into Palestinian territory to the grave of Oslo protester, Baruch Goldstein, who machine gunned over 100 Palestinians in 1994 while they worshipped in a mosque, then he knows little about why he is hated.

etc. etc.

Religion and politics?  Yeah right.

Peace will not come before each side develops a much better understanding of the real reasons hatred exists on the other side.

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I agree, religion and politics is what they said about the IRA, it was actually bombing of the other's schools and homes and communal gatherings. And then they all turned against the British Army when they interfered, that might happen in the middle east.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 09 2002,10:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I found it surprising that you didn't take the opportunity to disavow OBL's claim.<span id='postcolor'>I couldn't care less about "OBL's claim."  It was your brilliant idea to compare the opinions raised on page 247 with OBL's claim.  And when I tried to sidestep that petty display of paranoia you came back with:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 09 2002,02:o8)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Perhaps you should not have cornered yourself into aligning with OBL.<span id='postcolor'>And now your story is...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 09 2002,10:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I haven't accused you of anything.<span id='postcolor'>Uh-huh... right... whatever...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 09 2002,10:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Chill out.<span id='postcolor'>I visit a lot of threads on the web to chill out.  Sorry if this ain't one of them.

Now please go ahead and have the last word!

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jinef @ Nov. 09 2002,15:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I agree, religion and politics is what they said about the IRA, it was actually bombing of the other's schools and homes and communal gatherings. And then they all turned against the British Army when they interfered, that might happen in the middle east.<span id='postcolor'>

Money seems to play a key role.

Thank God Arafat was foolish enough to support Iraq in 1991 (against the wishes of all his colleagues) because that decision cost the PLO the financial support of the Saudis, Kuwaitis and many others.  And without that support the PLO was forced to the secret bargaining tables of Oslo, in 1993.

So, what happened In N. Ireland to force the 2 sides together?  Didn't Senator George Mitchell's investigation in N. Ireland help to reduce financial support from the Irish American community?

And if turning off the dollar taps helped in N. Ireland, then why do the dollar taps remain open for expanding Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory?

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"Religion and politics? Yeah right.

Peace will not come before each side develops a much better understanding of the real reasons hatred exists on the other side."

The conflict was started by politics and its carried on by politics and religion. The hate comes from the actions which were created by those two factors. Or are you saying that the whole conflict did not have its basis in politics? Are you saying that extremists on both sides do not use religion as an excuse to kill, maim and torture civilians and soldiers alike?

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Nov. 09 2002,17:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The conflict was started by politics and its carried on by politics and religion. The hate comes from the actions which were created by those two factors. Or are you saying that the whole conflict did not have its basis in politics?<span id='postcolor'>

Certainly the whole conflict's 85 year old roots lie in colonial politics.  However, to correct that 85 year-old mistake would end Israel and nobody seriously expects that to happen anymore.  Even Hamas reps have just met with the Palestinian Authority in Egypt with the aim of Hamas renouncing terrorism and finally recognising Israel's right to exist.  (I have to wonder why this positive development hasn't received more coverage.)

Political and religious differences occur all over the world without the actions that have lead to so much hatred.  At the same time, actions that have lead to such hatred have occurred all over the world without any basis in politics or religion.  And sometimes the hatred comes directly from the religious or political differences without any terrible actions to go with it.  In the Mid East there have been plenty of terrible actions to account for the hatred without blaming politics and religion.

Religion may have motivated stealing the Palestinian's country and international politics may have allowed the thieves to get away with it, however keeping the stolen goods has required terrible actions that have caused much hatred and terrible responses.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Nov. 09 2002,17:45)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Are you saying that extremists on both sides do not use religion as an excuse to kill, maim and torture civilians and soldiers alike?<span id='postcolor'>

Religion may still be used as an excuse to build settlements beyond Israel's borders and keep refugees from returning home, however the IDF does not need politics or religion as an excuse to shoot kids and bomb residential blocks.  And the grief-stricken Muslim or Christian Palestinian brother of the IDF's (or Israeli settler's) victim does not need politics or religion as an excuse to strap on an explosive belt.

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"Religion may still be used as an excuse to build settlements beyond Israel's borders and keep refugees from returning home, however the IDF does not need politics or religion as an excuse to shoot kids and bomb residential blocks. And the grief-stricken Muslim or Christian Palestinian brother of the IDF's (or Israeli settler's) victim does not need politics or religion as an excuse to strap on an explosive belt."

No, that is where the hate comes in to the picture.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 09 2002,14:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If he said nothing about continual Israeli pilgrimages into Palestinian territory to the grave of Oslo protester, Baruch Goldstein, who machine gunned over 100 Palestinians in 1994 while they worshipped in a mosque, then he knows little about why he is hated.<span id='postcolor'>

It might be interesting to put this particular event into perspective.

Given that the US population is ~100 times that of the West Bank, the 29 Palestinians killed by Goldstein could be compared with the ~2900 WTC victims killed by OBL.  (...Eventhough there would also need to be over 10,000 wounded in NYC for the comparison to be complete.)  But now imagine that Osama Bin Laden has died and a foreign power has arranged for him to be buried in New York's Battery Park.  And if that wasn't humiliating enough, his gravesite becomes a shrine to where Al Qaida members can make pilgrimages, pledge loyalty and pray for the end of America.  Of course it sounds absurd, but this is just one of many real humiliations the Palestinians must live with each day in the West Bank.

By the way, the Goldstein massacre occurred during Ramadan, in 1994.  As soon as Ramadan had ended, a Palestinian sought vengeance and became the first ever suicide bomber in Israel.  Fortunately, it didn't seem to bother the Palestinians too much that Goldstein was a US citizen.

___

EDIT:  Just found some more details about the intense hatred that really seemed to flourish in that time between the Oslo signing and the killing of Prime Minister Rabin.

Goldstein was wearing his Israeli army officer's uniform at the time of his rampage.  The first two Israeli soldiers arriving on the scene of the massacre, actually opened fire on Palestinians who were attempting to subdue Goldstein.

Days later, Israeli troops commanded by one Ehud Barak shot dead 30 more Palestinians who were protesting the massacre.  To add insult to injury, the Israeli government authorized the closing of some of the busiest city thoroughfares in honor of Goldstein's funeral cortege, and the army provided a guard of honor for Goldstein's tomb.  A site immediately considered "holy" to many Israelis.

Israeli journalist Teddy Preuss noted after, that Goldstein's "recorded statements and those of his comrades, however, prove that they were willing  to exterminate at least two million Palestinians at an opportune moment ...  As their statements abundantly testify, they see the Arabs as nothing more  than disease-spreading rats, lice or other loathsome creatures..."  [Davar,  March 4, 1994].

At his funeral, Goldstein was eulogized by a host of rabbis, including Dov Lior, who has called for using Arab prisoners in medical experiments [Yediot Ahronot, March 16, 1994]. These rabbis both lauded Goldstein and vociferously cheered his massacre, then advocated more slaughters of Palestinians. Their eulogies included these rapturous soundbites:

Rabbi Israel Ariel: "The holy martyr Baruch Goldstein is from now on our intercessor in heaven" [Yediot Ahronot, Feb. 28, 1994].

Rabbi Yaacov Perrin: "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail" [New York Times, February 28, 1994. p. 1].

A poll taken a week after the massacre later determined that "at least half of all Israeli Jews would approve of the (Goldstein) massacre, provided that it was not referred to as a massacre ... " [Yuval Katz, Yerushalaim, March 4, 1994] and Israeli reporter, Gabby Baron, reported that Israeli schoolchildren had been  "enthused" by the Goldstein slaughter [Yediot Ahronot, March 16, 1994].

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 09 2002,1606)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">It was your brilliant idea to compare the opinions raised on page 247 with OBL's claim.<span id='postcolor'>

It’s not much of a stretch, considering they both say the same thing:

-- “Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there… All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on Allah, his messenger, and Muslims.†– OBL, 23 Feb 1998

-- “The "real problem", as described on page 247 and with which you have vehemently disagreed, mentions US financial support of Israel's military/settlement program in the Palestinian territories.†– Bernadotte, 7 Nov 2002

Alas, I was hoping that with a not-so-subtle prompting you’d make the distinction between the Israeli/Palestinian situation and AQ’s justifications for terrorism. You've got to admit, a line like "according to you and Osama bin Laden" is as close to a meatball pitch setup as you're ever going to get.  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 09 2002,1606)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I couldn't care less about "OBL's claim."<span id='postcolor'>

I can see two ways to interpret this statement:

1) You don't consider it a valid justification for AQ's terrorism -- I don’t put much stock in it, either. It’s utter nonsense. Which is (for the third time) why I was surprised to see you agree with it. I continue to hope that you just weren’t paying attention.

2) You're not interested in his claim and prefer to discuss the Israeli/Palestinian issue -- Fine with me. However, his attempted justification is in fact what I was debating. If you're not interested, why are we arguing?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 09 2002,1606)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And when I tried to sidestep that petty display of paranoia you came back with:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 09 2002,02:o8)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Perhaps you should not have cornered yourself into aligning with OBL.<span id='postcolor'> <span id='postcolor'>

The moral here is that one person’s petty display of paranoia is another person’s documented statement of fact. And we've played the word game enough to understand the difference in connotations between "aligning" and "allying."  

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 09 2002,1606)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And now your story is...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 09 2002,10:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I haven't accused you of anything.<span id='postcolor'>Uh-huh... right... whatever... <span id='postcolor'>

I STILL haven’t "accused" you of anything, except possibly sloppy debating. And my story still hasn’t changed.

Semper Fi

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An article in the Village Voice entitled Blame Brooklyn - fundamentalist settlers have a borough accent by an Israeli writer is pretty good reading.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Most Israelis considered the lust to re-conquer biblical Israel by topping expropriated hills with camper trailers and red-roofed villas as much an obstacle to peace as the continuing Palestinian terrorism.

Who are these settlers, anyway?

"They are a pain in the ass," said my friend Tali, "both from a budgetary and a security point of view. We are being held hostage to them. You put two caravans on a hill and it costs us a fortune to keep soldiers there to protect them.

"They are sitting in a place that doesn't belong to them—looking for trouble," she said. "If it weren't for the settlers we could have made a border, a separation, since there is no way to make peace with the Palestinians."

<span id='postcolor'>...and...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...rational Israelis consider the kooks from Brooklyn "America's worst export to Israel."

"Every time the extremists speak, I hear a very strong Brooklyn accent," said my friend Yedidia.<span id='postcolor'>

biggrin.gif

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Ok... here's something interesting from a military think tank called the Center for Defense Information about Kach and Kahane Chai, two outlawed Israeli terrorist organisations.  Baruch Goldstein was a Kach member.

A Jewish Defense League spokesman told CDI the following:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Goldstein "saved lives" by taking preventive action that Israeli officials were unwilling to undertake. He also stated he does not believe in terror "under any circumstances" and hopes for a peaceful resolution to the crisis. A few more Palestinian attacks, said Stone, will hopefully lead to a shift in public opinion and the restoration of Kach/Kahane Chai to their former legal status.<span id='postcolor'>

Sometimes I wish I were just making this all up. sad.gif

EDIT:  Speaking of the Jewish Defense League, I almost forgot to mention that their imprisoned leader will probably survive an apparent suicide attempt.

Why is he imprisoned?

He's awaiting trial on attempted terrorism charges - plotting to blow up a California mosque and the offices of a US congressman for having grandparents who where Lebanese immigrants.

But I guess we all heard about this already, right?

No?  Well I suspect that if the head of a prominent Muslim-American organisation had been arrested for plotting to bomb a synagogue and the offices of a Jewish Congressman the news would have made the front pages.  And the news agencies would have referred to him as a terrorism suspect rather than a militant.

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Okay in 1991 did the Americans call for regime change half way through? I'm pretty sure i heard GB senior yapping on about it at the time.

I know it wasn't an objective at the start but later on when they started bombing his palaces and trying to kill him.

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He may have talked about it, but it wasn't an official mandate. Had it been one at the time, we wouldn't be preparing for an invasion of Iraq now.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 10 2002,17:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But I guess we all heard about this already, right?<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, actually. I can't speak for other regions of the U.S., but it was all over the TV news here in SoCal.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 10 2002,17:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No?  Well I suspect that if the head of a prominent Muslim-American organisation had been arrested for plotting to bomb a synagogue and the offices of a Jewish Congressman the news would have made the front pages.<span id='postcolor'>

Two Calif. Men Charged In Plot to Bomb Mosque

Both Belong to Militant Jewish Group

William Booth Washington Post Staff Writer

December 13, 2001; Page A1

Section: A

Word Count: 1027

Two leaders of the militant Jewish Defense League were arrested here Tuesday night as they were assembling bombs to use in planned attacks against one of the city's largest mosques and the local offices of an Arab American House member, federal officials announced today. The two men, Irving David Rubin and Earl Leslie Krugel, were charged today with conspiracy to manufacture and detonate bombs targeting Arab and Muslim buildings in the Los Angeles area, as well as the San

($2.95 for the complete article, but I'm not in that financial league.) The Washington Post Archives

Semper Fi

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What do you people think about comparing the Israel/palestine conflict with the former conflict with american (settlers) and the native americans? smile.gif

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I think it can't be compared really. The history behind it is very different.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Nov. 12 2002,14:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think it can't be compared really. The history behind it is very different.<span id='postcolor'>

Really?

How about this: Taking and occupying land - same as in Palestine. Establishing reservations - palestinian refugee-camps (only a lot worse). Using indians as cheap labour (as in building skyskrapers) - using palestinians as cheap labour. Indians targeting civilians - palestinians targeting civilians. US soldiers targeting civilian indians - IDF targeting civilians.

Difference: no one cared about the fate of the indians before it was too late. Some at least, care for the palestinians before it's too late.

mad.gif

I would say there are similarities!

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @ Nov. 12 2002,13:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think it can't be compared really. The history behind it is very different.<span id='postcolor'>

Everything that is going to happen has pretty much always been done before with slight differences. The history might be different e.g. different location and people but really it's always going to come down that they are the same thing essentially.

SSDD - (Same Shit Different Day)

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Albert Schweizer @ Nov. 12 2002,14:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What do you people think about comparing the Israel/palestine conflict with the former conflict with american (settlers) and the native americans?  smile.gif<span id='postcolor'>

Good question.

I think the biggest difference might be that when settlers arrived in North America there was nothing comparable to Palestine's Ottoman Land Code of 1858.  The N.A Indians may have had recognised tribal territories, but there was little in the way of land parcels with registered owners - unlike what the Palestinians had before the founding of Israel.

Ironically, the other difference is that many N.A. Indians ultimately collected some small compensation for their "lost" land, whereas the Palestinians have yet to receive a dime.

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</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (E6Hotel @ Nov. 12 2002,08:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ Nov. 10 2002,17:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But I guess we all heard about this already, right?<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, actually. I can't speak for other regions of the U.S., but it was all over the TV news here in SoCal.<span id='postcolor'>

Ok... relieved to hear that there was considerable local coverage.  And it certainly doesn't surprise me that it got on the front page of the Washington Post.

Would you happen to be in Darrell Issa's district?  I don't know much about his politics.  Was there any other reason he might have been targetted besides his grandparents being Lebanese?

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