Mid east

[Bernadotte 0]

USS Cole??  Nope.

...USS Liberty.  ...same Navy, different attacker.  

[bogo 0]

ussliberty sow tragic.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ July 26 2002,22:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">USS Cole??  Nope.

...USS Liberty.  ...same Navy, different attacker.  <span id='postcolor'>

Be fair, who hasn't the US attacket by accident before? Israel can too. It's not the same as terrorism, which is what we were talking about.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 27 2002,01:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ July 26 2002,22:15)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">USS Cole??  Nope.

...USS Liberty.  ...same Navy, different attacker.  <span id='postcolor'>

Be fair, who hasn't the US attacket by accident before? Israel can too. It's not the same as terrorism, which is what we were talking about.<span id='postcolor'>

Just wondering have you read the articles.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 27 2002,00:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Be fair, who hasn't the US attacket by accident before? Israel can too. It's not the same as terrorism, which is what we were talking about.<span id='postcolor'>

A lot of people (including the surviving crew of the USS Liberty) have trouble believing that 8 Israeli reconnaissance flights passing this closely...

...13 different times, could still mistake this ship...

...for this ship.

I also have trouble comparing a 90 minute sustained attack by sea and air to any American friendly fire incident.  Still, I'm inclined to believe that Liberty was a very irresponsible error that was worth looking back on in the wake of this past week's mistake in Gaza City.  Besides ya can't have a 150-page thread on the Mid East without mentioning the USS Liberty at least once.

Sorry Paratrooper... what were you saying about terrorism?

[eidt:  removed Qana reference]

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (bogo @ July 27 2002)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Just wondering have you read the articles.  <span id='postcolor'>

Interesting stuff, no?  But to be fair, people should also read the pro-Israeli side of the story and assume the truth to be somewhere in the middle.

[Longinius 1]

http://www.spytalk.net/

They had an interview with some of the Liberty survivors there. I downloaded the interview from their site in MP3 format. I checked now but couldn't find it on their site anymore. If anyone wants it, ICQ me and we can set up a file transfer. Its quite interesting. The guy doing the show is a jew, by the way. Who has served in the IDF.

My ICQ, if you want the file, 2331026

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sorry Paratrooper... what were you saying about terrorism? <span id='postcolor'> Military blunders do not amount to terrorism.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 27 2002,15:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sorry Paratrooper... what were you saying about terrorism? <span id='postcolor'> Military blunders do not amount to terrorism.<span id='postcolor'>

Nope, they don't.  However, not everyone believes it was a military blunder.

So how do you feel about this military blunder?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely,it is unlikely that the shelling (by the IDF) of the United Nations compound (in Qana, Lebanon) was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors.  -- UN Investigator<span id='postcolor'>

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ July 27 2002,16:57)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 27 2002,15:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sorry Paratrooper... what were you saying about terrorism? <span id='postcolor'> Military blunders do not amount to terrorism.<span id='postcolor'>

Nope, they don't.  However, not everyone believes it was a military blunder.

So how do you feel about this military blunder?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely,it is unlikely that the shelling (by the IDF) of the United Nations compound (in Qana, Lebanon) was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors.  -- UN Investigator<span id='postcolor'><span id='postcolor'>

Israel is militarily volotile, but we arn't making a list of the country's crimes/mistakes here. We were discussing terrorism.

What point are you trying to make? I could make a list of reprehensible things done by my own beloved Britain. Britain isn't an opressive state however.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 27 2002,19:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israel is militarily volotile, but we arn't making a list of the country's crimes/mistakes here. We were discussing terrorism.<span id='postcolor'>

Um... this thread is about the Mid east and not just terrorism, right?  ...Or do you really think that the problems of the Mid east have nothing to do with the actions of Israel?

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 27 2002,19:30)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What point are you trying to make? I could make a list of reprehensible things done by my own beloved Britain. Britain isn't an opressive state however.<span id='postcolor'>

I guess my point is that anyone should be able to post a list of any reprehensible things that Britain may have done, as long as they did them in the Mid east because that's what this thread is about, eh?  

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I guess my point is that anyone should be able to post a list of any reprehensible things that Britain may have done, as long as they did them in the Mid east because that's what this thread is about, eh? <span id='postcolor'> The point is that this thread is not for Israel bashing. What has this blunder got to do with the Palestinian situation? Nothing.

[bogo 0]

well acodingly to the mp3 wich i downlaodit from Longinius this dosen't seme to be a mistake at all. I think this

evidence points that they new very much that the ship was an american one with no doubt. As to paratropper i think this is one of the many evidence that israel is capable of covering up if it's in theyr one interest and they aren't always telling the truth as some people belive.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 27 2002,20:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The point is that this thread is not for Israel bashing. What has this blunder got to do with the Palestinian situation? Nothing.<span id='postcolor'>

Relax buddy!  There was no Naval or Congressional investigation so that pretty much leaves everyone to come up with their own opinion.  Just because you think it was a blunder doesn't mean it was a blunder. And if it wasn't a blunder then it has quite a lot to do with the Palestinian situation.  I'll explain it to you if you like.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'll explain it to you if you like. <span id='postcolor'> I'm not a supporter of Israel's campaign against the Palestinians, as my posts in this thread show. But go on and explain to us all how this attack affects the Palestein situation.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 27 2002,21:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...But go on and explain to us all how this attack affects the Palestein situation.<span id='postcolor'>

Actually Bogo said it quite well.  If this wasn't a blunder then it demonstrates how well Israel is capable of getting away with commiting attrocities.

Did you read the UN report on the Qana massacre?  If a Norwegian peacekeeper hadn't been nearby with a video camera, then Israel could have continued to insist that they had no spy drone guiding the attack from above - which they did.

And at the end of the Cold War when Israel needed more immigration, they made a deal with the Soviets to trade US secrets for Russian Jews.  It worked, but their spy, American Jonathon Pollard eventually got caught and is now in a US prison.  Israel later made Pollard an honorary citizen and tried to trade his release for some concessions to the Palestinians at the Wye River summit.  Clinton angrily refused, but Israel still managed to get another $3 billion dollars in aid that year.

Need I go on?  Just check out the Lavon Affair from 1954.

Trust me, Paratrooper, if you posted any info about the Palestinian Authority getting away with bombing a UN base, selling US secrets to the Soviets, bombing a US ship or bombing a US diplomatic facility in Egypt then I wouldn't be accusing you of Palestinian bashing.  In fact, such info would be an important part of any thread entitled Mid East.  But you know why Israel can get away with doing such things?  Because whenever someone mentions anything about it there's nearly always someone standing nearby to say, stop Israel bashing!

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Trust me, Paratrooper, if you posted any info about the Palestinian Authority getting away with bombing a UN base, selling US secrets to the Soviets, bombing a US ship or bombing a US diplomatic facility in Egypt then I wouldn't be accusing you of Palestinian bashing. In fact, such info would be an important part of any thread entitled Mid East. But you know why Israel can get away with doing such things? Because whenever someone mentions anything about it there's nearly always someone standing nearby to say, stop Israel bashing! <span id='postcolor'> I don't disagree with you, I was just suggesting that it may be a little off message, as all nations act in their own interests, and sometimes do the wrong thing.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israel bashing! <span id='postcolor'> There is a more popular and dangerous term when used falsely: Anti-Semitism.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Anti-Semitism.

<span id='postcolor'>

Did you know that when you say semitism that includs the arabs to. Ges't a reminder.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

I don't disagree with you, I was just suggesting that it may be a little off message, as all nations act in their own interests, and sometimes do the wrong thing.

<span id='postcolor'>

I agree with you totally but not in case of israle ok i admit sometimes maybe the could have been made a mistake. But

all the time. In case of israel evry time israel makes a mistake somebody dies for it. As Scout says Idf policy is not

kill civilians and evry casualy is dismiss either as a mistake or a casualty of war. And that just not true. Take for

exampel the bombing with f 16 do you expect me to belive that hiting a overcrowded are as gaza with missile it only hit

the terrorist . No way ,i find that kind of insulting sayin that.

And again all those posting here is not to create racism in evry way. I personaly don't care a person color religion or

sex. For my sake that person could come from mars and i still don't care. You judge people by their action not their

religion or color.

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 27 2002,23:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israel bashing!  <span id='postcolor'>There is a more popular and dangerous term when used falsely: Anti-Semitism.<span id='postcolor'>

So true.  Whenever I run into real Anti-Semites I tell them that they are actually the greatest allies of Israel because, without their sick attitudes to defend against, Israel would never have received so much blind support.  That tends to shut them up.

[Paratrooper 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ July 28 2002,00:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Paratrooper @ July 27 2002,23:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Israel bashing!  <span id='postcolor'>There is a more popular and dangerous term when used falsely: Anti-Semitism.<span id='postcolor'>

So true.  Whenever I run into real Anti-Semites I tell them that they are actually the greatest allies of Israel because, without their sick attitudes to defend against, Israel would never have received so much blind support.  That tends to shut them up.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes, there is a massive gulf betwene hating Jews and hating Israeli violence. And yes I hate Palestinian violence also, but Israel isn't under occupation with enemy tanks rolling through their streets.

[bogo 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">

Yes, there is a massive gulf betwene hating Jews and hating Israeli violence.

<span id='postcolor'>

Sow true. But unfortunaly Israel is using it as a wepon. I have seen that almost evry time when the european goverment critisising israel for it's action it get's a response that we are

racisist. Especialy in march when idf rolled in west bank i remmber exactly that some of my one goverment ministers have been called racist for critisising Israel.

There is a kínd of double moral it's ok to crtisise the palestinian but if you critisis Israel then you are a racist.

[scout 0]

so many things are happening around the middle east....

the Kurds are oppressed, both by the turks and Iraqis, killed and gassed, Iran is funding and training the Hizbullah, responsible for the death of french and US troops, and the killing of several embassy employees, Syria thats now a security council member, massacred in 1985 in Hamma more then 25000 people, Saudi Arabia, funding organizations like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, Egypt oppressing Christian Copts, and state funding some of the worst Anti-Jewish literature (same stuff Nazi germany published), and so on and so on.......

deaths in Ruanda, mass murder of whites in Rhodesia, East Timoe and Ceylon, Human rights violation in China and killing of live babies, Chechnya, Half world going in flames, and the mideast yet all this thread goes around is Israel........

thank you gentlemen for such a vast interest, im really flattered.....

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">And at the end of the Cold War when Israel needed more immigration, they made a deal with the Soviets to trade US secrets for Russian Jews. It worked, but their spy, American Jonathon Pollard eventually got caught and is now in a US prison<span id='postcolor'>

Koo koo.........

[Bernadotte 0]

Scout, I think you missed a couple of my questions (which you are free to ignore if you choose).  

Question 1...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ July 25 2002,03:O8)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 25 2002,02:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">btw. one of the most remembered moment for me was whenn BBC interviewer talked with Israeli spokesman, and opened up with these words:"It seems, Sharon has another massacre to add on his list" WTF?  nice going BBC.<span id='postcolor'>

How many Palestinians must die before the media can call it a massacre and how many Israelis?

Does it make you equally angry, Scout, when the Israeli media refers to the killing of 10 of its citizens as a massacre?  ...Or are Israeli lives worth more than Palestinian lives?<span id='postcolor'>

Question 2...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Bernadotte @ July 26 2002,18:O9)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 26 2002,06:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> i for myself recognise the fact that there is are people (palestinians) living on the ground. since we dont want to make them citizens i see that it is pointless building them in places that would surely be evacuated in any futuristic settlement.<span id='postcolor'>

Why has Israel continued to build hundreds of settlements that would surely be evacuated when there is a peace settlement?<span id='postcolor'>

[scout 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">How many Palestinians must die before the media can call it a massacre and how many Israelis?

Does it make you equally angry, Scout, when the Israeli media refers to the killing of 10 of its citizens as a massacre? ...Or are Israeli lives worth more than Palestinian lives?<span id='postcolor'>

when there is a massacre then its called one, like the Goldstein massacre for example.

thats when someone conspired to kill civilians on porpuse you know........

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why has Israel continued to build hundreds of settlements that would surely be evacuated when there is a peace settlement?<span id='postcolor'>

good question, i'd like to know that too........

[Bernadotte 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 28 2002,17:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Why has Israel continued to build hundreds of settlements that would surely be evacuated when there is a peace settlement?<span id='postcolor'>

good question, i'd like to know that too........<span id='postcolor'>

But you said...

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (scout @ July 26 2002,04:25)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">the settlements are by no means a interfering factor in any kind of negotiations although i dont approve of them.<span id='postcolor'>

How can you be so sure that they are by no means an interfering factor in any kind of negotiations when you don't even know why Israel is building them?